Cults Of Unreason

Posted by: Prince Of Softies on 25 May 2003

Please forgive me for venturing out of The Padded Cell, but as a long time lurker and occasional meaningless contributor I couldn’t help but comment on some of the ideas that surface on hi-fi forums from time to time.

One of the cornerstones of any good cult is the ability to turn opinion, theory or half-truth into fact. Any decent hair-brained pseudo-religion can defend their gormless ideas with a few simple counter arguments. For example:

Cultist: The spirits of the dead fly to Jupiter and live lives of tranquil bliss in the methane layer of the atmosphere
Unbeliever: This is plainly cobblers and I’m thinking of calling the police
Cultist: Prove that it isn’t so
Unbeliever: Errr

Or:

Cultist: We are all evolved from rocks
Unbeliever: Interesting theory, what about all those fossil records?
Cultist: All fabricated by the global conspiracy of Master Bakers, who don’t want us to know the truth
Unbeliever: Hmmm, I always thought my Nan had a bit of igneous in her

Or even:

Cultist: All electricity is created from the collective output of the human orgasm
Unbeliever: Wibble
Cultist: You may scoff, but when you rise to a sufficiently high level in the organisation you will be shown the evidence. Until then you must believe, or me and my burly friend here will throw you out on the street with a large firework stuffed up your bottom. Then we’ll ostracise you and your loved ones!
Unbeliever: You win, how much do I have to pay?

But more tellingly:

Cultist: You’d call yourself an open-minded person, wouldn’t you?
Unbeliever: Of course
Cultist: You don’t believe that we’ve discovered all there is to know about everything, do you?
Unbeliever: Certainly not
Cultist: Then like every right-thinking person, you believe that there’s far more going on than “science” as we know it can explain, don’t you?
Unbeliever: I should co-co
Cultist: <gotcha>

There are many other non-arguments here including the ever popular: “My mate’s brother’s seen one so it must be true”, or: “2+2 = 4, agreed? So 2+3= 99”, but you get the drift.

So, eventually to the point of all this -

6 months run-in for kit? A classic case of the 2+2 argument. Yes I dimly remember my 72/Hiicap/250 getting better over a couple of weeks, but 6 months? Give me strength.

My speakers got no bass. Ah well, you haven’t thrown enough watts (money) at it.

Talking of worshipping at the altar of wattage, am I alone in wondering if the next step in history repeating itself will be for people to start talking in lascivious terms of how many watts their speakers can handle, or the size of their woofers? Or buying Sweet and Mud records?

How about the : “I haven’t heard the new kit and I have no intention of doing so, but I KNOW that its not for me” brigade?

Don’t even get me started on the appalling pseudo-science that surrounds stands. The cultism and the associated mentality is so blatantly just a substitute for joining The Scientologists, that I’m almost embarrassed to mention it.

Is this a recent thing here that some people believe that if they keep saying some utter bollocks often enough it’ll become accepted fact?

There are probably other examples that, caught up in my rant as I am, I can’t recall just now.

Walter
Posted on: 26 May 2003 by John C
" think of it as a great soap opera, ... Shame there's no love interest. "


I occasionally dream of Paul Ranson in a right skimpy nightie.

John
Posted on: 26 May 2003 by Tuan
quote:
Originally posted by J. A. Toon:
quote:
I think I can safely say that the Forum would continue if you did not post


What I said was, if everyone who wasn't a member of the "cult" disappeared, then it would metaphorically die.

It would still exist, but likely be very boring.

quote:
Err...I suggested that? Please remind me where....


It was suggested in your line:

"Call me old fashioned, but I would have thought a Naim forum would largely be populated by Naim fans. "

Due to the particular context of what you were replying to (namely, about any criticism directed about Naim equipment).


quote:
If you find that people on this forum discussing and recommending Naim equipment boring then so be it.


I don't find that boring. What I find boring is when every thread about anything not Naim gets swamped under by the same old "Naim way" prejudices. What I find boring is people's complete inability to recognise any weaknesses in the equipment, thus increasingly rendering any general Hifi discussion impossible.


quote:
If you can't see that this is a community spurred on by a love of Hifi and music, then that's your loss.


Sorry, I should have phrased that better.

What I meant was that it is a shame that the Hifi section is becoming so increasingly partisan.

The music section is thoroughly excellent, as always.

quote:
You've done nothing but complain since you came here, now either learn to get on with the others in this community or go and find another one


That is not true. There have been many excellent times here.

I have only been complaining _recently_ because it seems like those times are changing, which is a shame.

John.

John. You are fine and I enjoy your postings. They give fair views to other HiFi designs. I am a Naim guy (all my electronics are Naim: 102/supercap/250/CD3 and on the upgrading path to a CDX2 in the near future). However, I give lot of respect to other designs that carry things that Naim dont have. There is nothing wrong with having good sound stage, resolution, powerful sound AND doing the PRAT correctly. Who say that we cannot have the Naim+ Mark Levinson + Bryston sound. I see a trend of convergence in recent products. Some people on this Forum just wait to jump on you if you are not Naim fanatic. This Forum is getting boring since they dont allow other views to be expressed.

----
_E-mail: john.toon@btinternet.com_
Posted on: 26 May 2003 by DJH
False distinctions and the defiance of reason

As it happens, Tom, I do spend most of my free time either developing my images or listening to music, rather than lurking on forums or in dealers' demo rooms. And on the contrary, I think that one individual here is trying to trash a product by creating a series of false distinctions [Mana easy to produce and low tech / other products more complex and hi-tech, etc.] under a fairly amateurish guise. Up to him.

I think this goes to the heart of the Prince of Softies original post, where he pointed out the strange behaviour that seems to infect those who inhabit forums regularly. Bizarrely, you would appear to want to defend such behaviour by referring to events that took place about 8 years ago. I happen to think that this is cock-eyed, indeed I reckon that forums have probably contributed to a new form of obsessive behaviour in some individuals, which is quite unhealthy.

Perhaps you are so busy laughing at a new formulation of a joke about a dripping pussy that you can't see this?
Posted on: 26 May 2003 by Minky
My objection has nothing to do with the "Prince of softies" post that started this thread. It was well written and thought provoking and stimulated some interesting discussion.

I have nothing against John Toon. He is entitled to express his opinions and does so in a very logical and coherent manner.

My beef has to do with the way Mr Toon seems to steam into every half interesting thread on this forum with the same logically and coherently expressed opinions knowing full well that he is going to provoke a riot and stop the main event dead in it's tracks.
Posted on: 27 May 2003 by Mick P
Mr Toon

I think it is fair to say that you can say more or less anything on this forum. Many chaps come in and positively criticise Niams products without any fear of censor. This is a measure of the confidence that Naim have in their kit.

I think in your particular case, your approach was becoming predictable and may have been seen as mischievious.

Never the less, your opinion is valued, even if it is usually wrong.

Regards

Mick....whose opinion is usually always right.
Posted on: 27 May 2003 by Minky
quote:
Originally posted by Mick Parry:

Never the less, your opinion is valued, even if it is usually wrong.


Yup, that ought to do it ..
Posted on: 27 May 2003 by greeny
Ok having just read this long (and sometimes amusing thread)

Warm up time:
There is a perceived wisdom on this board that implies that Naim products are rubbish from cold, and then change to be brilliant over time from 1 day to 6 months!! .

I have not experienced this. Every new/cold Naim product I have ever used has sounded splendid straight from the box. The sound then tends to change SLIGHTLY over a few hours to maybe a day (in my experiance losing any slightly glassy tendancy and mellowing out slightly).

However much advice has been given suggesting unsatisfied punters should leave things several weeks B4 evaluating a product. I have found that my general mood, electrical supply variations etc from day to day have more effect than warm up. Now I'm not suggesting that changes don't take place, but IN MY EXPERIANCE these are overstated on this board.

The problem is that for regular board participants this is a self perpetuating prophesy. You become accustomed to initial failing after a few weeks, so has your system finally warmed up?, do you just listen to the music rather than the HiFi?, Are your ears working better?, Has the mains supply changed?

I think the point of the original message is worth taking on board. Do we really experiance these things OURSELVES or are we just going with general optinion?
Posted on: 27 May 2003 by Greg Beatty
"Do we really experiance these things OURSELVES or are we just going with general optinion?"

I remember when I was just getting started with all this and having the dealer tell me things that didn't make "common sense" to me. I remember three of these claims clearly:

* The stand matters.

* A CD player will sound better after it has been on for an hour or so.

* Speaker wire matters.

Luckily, I - and you - don't have to buy into a cult in order to test (verify?) these claims for yourself.

Our Aiwa mini system at home sounds shite for the first hour or so it is on. Truth. Done this a hundred times - I hear it, my wife hears it, and our friends (the wacky ones who care) hear it. Clear as pie. My Sony ES series CD player sounds shite if it is cold as well. It "opens up" - and the sound "relaxes" after a while.

As to stands, just put a folded towel under your CD player, including the feed, and see if you hear a difference. Its easy to demonstrate that the kit sounds different depending what it sits on.

Same with speaker cables - and especially so with Naim kit.

As to which cable or support is better is a different question, but that these things affect the sound is easily demonstrated.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here
Posted on: 27 May 2003 by Minky
quote:
Originally posted by Stallion:
Think of your situation being a bit like this: how fruitless would it be trying to convince the members of a Man Utd supporters club that the Arsenal players are perhaps more talented individually, if you don't sympathise with the beliefs of its members? Well, this is (largely) the Naim supporters club - think about it. Regardless of what some folk think, you're a valued member of this forum.


Stallion, the voice of reason ! My analogy was going to be more along the lines of an arse man trying to talk a tit man around to his way of thinking. In clean green NZ we think about sex as often as you guys think about football (well I do anyway).

I hope that John hasn't taken offence. He is a valued member of this forum (he was first in line with a great reply on the copper connector thread yesterday). I just get frustrated when interesting threads are nuked by squabbling. It takes two to tango though and there is a bit of bear baiting going on here too.
Posted on: 27 May 2003 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
Marco

Missed your post until just now. Nicely expressed, will indeed give the lad a break. Nothing personal; Johns a nice lad - I warmed to him the very second he said he was impressed when I mentioned I had an Akiva. Smile As I have mentioned, he does have a view that is worth a listen

But I have found a condascending tone that became irksome; my comments where intended at first to be little prods indicating this but the point was missed. My mantra of type less, say more was meant as genuine advice.

Honest!

Regards

Mike
Posted on: 28 May 2003 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
aaaahh!

Group Hug!!

Mike