Which is the most difficult material to reproduce believably on hifi equipment?
Posted by: Nime on 12 March 2005
What it says on the tin.
Regards
Nime
Regards
Nime
quote:Originally posted by David Stewart:
Pipe organ - very few systems can convey the power of the things, particularly in the bass register.
The bass register is a matter of owning a decent subwoofer. Mine easily reaches 15Hz and will literally shake the house well below that.
A real (and superior) alternative would be a true infinite baffle. Involving a minimum of 4 x 15" drivers in a box manifold in the ceiling, floor or wall. The rear of the drivers must be able to exhaust freely to another room or outdoors to completely seperate the wavefronts from the fronts and backs of the drivers to avoid cancellation. These true IBs offer incredibly low distortion at very low frequencies. Ideally, they require several hundred watts of power to achieve high SPLs.
quote:PS: why isn't this thread in the HIFi room?
I considered placing this thread in the HiFi Room but thought it too "off-centre" for the usual discussions on the mechanics of boxes.
I wonder whether some posters would be willing to improvise with such freedom on the other forum.
Regards
Nime
OK, so you tell me -
quote:Which is the most difficult material to reproduce believably on hifi equipment?
quote:Originally posted by Nime:
A real (and superior) alternative would be a true infinite baffle. Involving a minimum of 4 x 15" drivers in a box manifold in the ceiling, floor or wall. The rear of the drivers must be able to exhaust freely to another room or outdoors to completely seperate the wavefronts from the fronts and backs of the drivers to avoid cancellation. These true IBs offer incredibly low distortion at very low frequencies. Ideally, they require several hundred watts of power to achieve high SPLs.
Nice idea. Don't forget to take some care with the placement of the four drivers as they will excite the fundamental room resonances to a greater or lesser extent. I would be tempted to put some parametric EQ on the amplifier for these babies.
Placement of the units to avoid interference with each other may be necessary, depending on the cut-off frequency (for a true subwoofer this shouldn't matter as the frequency would be too low). Some attention will also be required to ensure smooth integration with the main speakers.
On the main question of the thread, I always think that piano is a good test. I also believe that one can only go so far with conventional moving coil loudspeakers - the difference in dispersion characteristics compared with a live performance will always be a giveaway, no matter how good the speaker. Unfortunately, the most commonly used alternative approaches - omni-directionals or panels - are also problematic.
Sorry guys. I try to stick to non-offensive subjects (like war, religion or politics) on this forum but couldn't resist.
Regards
Steve M
Ah the memories come flooding back! (again)Kirkaldy Park motorcycle racing with massed pipes and drums.
What is it about the pipes that make strong men's eyes water?
Was it Peter walker of Quad who tried a public demonstration of the sheer wattage required to try and reproduce a (gently struck) small drum accurately? Metallica would have been proud.
Steve you seem to know something of the true IB.
My 30 foot long listening room (open-plan to the lower floor) favours the subsonics without recognisable resonces anywhere. Though I do get a gently rising response all the way to 15Hz. I intend to place my 4x15" IB in the ceiling just above my present SVS tube.
Is that enough "talking dirty" for this forum?
(Perhaps I really should have put this thread in HiFi Corner)
Nime
What is it about the pipes that make strong men's eyes water?
Was it Peter walker of Quad who tried a public demonstration of the sheer wattage required to try and reproduce a (gently struck) small drum accurately? Metallica would have been proud.
Steve you seem to know something of the true IB.
My 30 foot long listening room (open-plan to the lower floor) favours the subsonics without recognisable resonces anywhere. Though I do get a gently rising response all the way to 15Hz. I intend to place my 4x15" IB in the ceiling just above my present SVS tube.
Is that enough "talking dirty" for this forum?
(Perhaps I really should have put this thread in HiFi Corner)
Nime
Thanks Steve. I am aware of The Cult and have exchanged pleasantries.
The way to avoid some mechanical ceiling resonance is by using a manifold (box) design. Which greatly reduces transmitted vibration from the accelerations from the large drivers by building the drivers into opposing walls of a box.
The open side of the box acts as a pressure driver on the room. While the closed sides maintain the isolation required to function as a true infinite baffle. All you see in the room is the open side of the manifold which can be convered with a flush cloth (or decorative) grill.
You probably know all this, but I thought I'd share it with those unaware of the true IB subwoofer type. The interested can see the manifolds in the Cult's gallery to get a better idea of what is involved. A true array is still a better than a manifold I believe.
My main problem (even now) is keeping windows in their frames when near-15Hz tones produce such incredible vibrations. I usually bottle-out by using under 2 second test tones to avoid damage. But on programme material it can be difficult to avoid longer tones being reproduced.
I had a demo of a popular B&W compact sub in a large dealer's high street showroom where the large (double glazed) shop windows were literally shaking themselves to apparent, imminent destruction. However exciting this migth be initially, it all adds to "noise" during music and film effects reproduction.
I'll just have to replace my large windows with smaller-paned ones sooner rather than later. But others should keep this in mind should they wish to explore real bass reproduction.
I have music tracks that hit 12Hz at high level and at least one organ has 64 foot pipes for 8Hz. One day the reproduction of such low frequncies may be as commonplace as the tweeter is now. But we may be listening in concrete underground bunkers.
Regards
Nime
The way to avoid some mechanical ceiling resonance is by using a manifold (box) design. Which greatly reduces transmitted vibration from the accelerations from the large drivers by building the drivers into opposing walls of a box.
The open side of the box acts as a pressure driver on the room. While the closed sides maintain the isolation required to function as a true infinite baffle. All you see in the room is the open side of the manifold which can be convered with a flush cloth (or decorative) grill.
You probably know all this, but I thought I'd share it with those unaware of the true IB subwoofer type. The interested can see the manifolds in the Cult's gallery to get a better idea of what is involved. A true array is still a better than a manifold I believe.
My main problem (even now) is keeping windows in their frames when near-15Hz tones produce such incredible vibrations. I usually bottle-out by using under 2 second test tones to avoid damage. But on programme material it can be difficult to avoid longer tones being reproduced.
I had a demo of a popular B&W compact sub in a large dealer's high street showroom where the large (double glazed) shop windows were literally shaking themselves to apparent, imminent destruction. However exciting this migth be initially, it all adds to "noise" during music and film effects reproduction.
I'll just have to replace my large windows with smaller-paned ones sooner rather than later. But others should keep this in mind should they wish to explore real bass reproduction.
I have music tracks that hit 12Hz at high level and at least one organ has 64 foot pipes for 8Hz. One day the reproduction of such low frequncies may be as commonplace as the tweeter is now. But we may be listening in concrete underground bunkers.
Regards
Nime
Interesting thread Nime
I'd second Pipe Organ, and probably Piano as well.
The difficulty/compromise I've found with MY Naim system v's live, is that whilst they get it all right re PRaT etc, cone type colorations can make their prescence felt on piano - certainly the lean upper bass/lower midrange, and slight forwardness of the upper midrange on the SBL's can make some piano recordings less than ideally recorded sound a bit thin, and with a sense of 'shout' on the upper registers of the instrument that is not, well, 'perfect'. But then I've yet to hear the perfect speaker, and they DO reveal the musical message of the performance superbly, if not quite getting the tonal balance to perfection.
I could apply the same criticism re tonal abberations to pipe organ, BUT despite some recordings being a bit 'bright' (and it does vary a lot from recording to recording so perhaps a bit unfair to level criticism at the system) the bass in particular I find superb. Obviously no where near the reach of say Nimes sub(s), however the speed, precision, articulation and detail in the bass is wonderful re following the musical line, and goes low enough to pressurise the room, and rattle doors windows etc.
I don't think any HiFi system quite pulls off the trick of reproducing the 'live' experience, but for music, Naim gets it pretty close. However I very much endorse the need/desire for a full bandwith system. Not wishing to make disparaging comments to Linn Kan owners etc, but IMHO, Hi-Fidelity means reproducing as close as possible the original sound - from that point of view, lightweight/frequency restricted small speakers such as Kans, and my own Tannoy MX2's (used as rear movie surround speakers) don't cut it when measured by that criteria as being a High fidelity speaker - they simply can't reproduce ALL the musical information.
Hence if one is going to have any hope of handling/reproducing in a believable way difficult instruments like Pipe Organ, then either a full range floorstander, or bookshelf with sub would be a minimum requirement/starting point IMHO.
Cheers
John...
I'd second Pipe Organ, and probably Piano as well.
The difficulty/compromise I've found with MY Naim system v's live, is that whilst they get it all right re PRaT etc, cone type colorations can make their prescence felt on piano - certainly the lean upper bass/lower midrange, and slight forwardness of the upper midrange on the SBL's can make some piano recordings less than ideally recorded sound a bit thin, and with a sense of 'shout' on the upper registers of the instrument that is not, well, 'perfect'. But then I've yet to hear the perfect speaker, and they DO reveal the musical message of the performance superbly, if not quite getting the tonal balance to perfection.
I could apply the same criticism re tonal abberations to pipe organ, BUT despite some recordings being a bit 'bright' (and it does vary a lot from recording to recording so perhaps a bit unfair to level criticism at the system) the bass in particular I find superb. Obviously no where near the reach of say Nimes sub(s), however the speed, precision, articulation and detail in the bass is wonderful re following the musical line, and goes low enough to pressurise the room, and rattle doors windows etc.
I don't think any HiFi system quite pulls off the trick of reproducing the 'live' experience, but for music, Naim gets it pretty close. However I very much endorse the need/desire for a full bandwith system. Not wishing to make disparaging comments to Linn Kan owners etc, but IMHO, Hi-Fidelity means reproducing as close as possible the original sound - from that point of view, lightweight/frequency restricted small speakers such as Kans, and my own Tannoy MX2's (used as rear movie surround speakers) don't cut it when measured by that criteria as being a High fidelity speaker - they simply can't reproduce ALL the musical information.
Hence if one is going to have any hope of handling/reproducing in a believable way difficult instruments like Pipe Organ, then either a full range floorstander, or bookshelf with sub would be a minimum requirement/starting point IMHO.
Cheers
John...