Postal Strike
Posted by: Analogue on 21 October 2009
48hr postal strike starts mid-night, tonight.
Posted on: 22 October 2009 by JamieL_v2
I spoke to my postman this morning when he delivered my post, certainly here in Leeds it is the sorting office that strike today, and the delivery service that will strike tomorrow.
On Saturday the delivery staff will deliver twice as much as normal on their usual rounds, and I suspect the same of the sorting staff tomorrow.
I think the arguments on this boil down to whether you think the country should have an infrastructure supported by taxes which serves both business and the community, or whether things should only be done through profit making companies who may be more efficient in some terms, but also make money for their shareholders.
I tried to write that in an unbiased fashion, but I was not able, sorry. I do basically think there is something wrong with the rich creaming off money from basic services that are needed to make a society function.
While I think neither side is blameless in this dispute, I certainly know where my sympathies lie, with the postal workers.
I am also reminded of something Jack Dee said about when people complain about the occasional rises in the cost of sending a letter 'OK, here's 37 pence, see how far you get with that'.
(Edit - Thanks Debs, you posted while I was writing to say the same thing).
On Saturday the delivery staff will deliver twice as much as normal on their usual rounds, and I suspect the same of the sorting staff tomorrow.
I think the arguments on this boil down to whether you think the country should have an infrastructure supported by taxes which serves both business and the community, or whether things should only be done through profit making companies who may be more efficient in some terms, but also make money for their shareholders.
I tried to write that in an unbiased fashion, but I was not able, sorry. I do basically think there is something wrong with the rich creaming off money from basic services that are needed to make a society function.
While I think neither side is blameless in this dispute, I certainly know where my sympathies lie, with the postal workers.
I am also reminded of something Jack Dee said about when people complain about the occasional rises in the cost of sending a letter 'OK, here's 37 pence, see how far you get with that'.
(Edit - Thanks Debs, you posted while I was writing to say the same thing).
Posted on: 22 October 2009 by scottyhammer
My postie is a decent fella....always says hello and is cheerful and reliable - therefore he gets my support and talking to him today he was very upset with the management.
Posted on: 22 October 2009 by Analogue
There looks to be another 3day strike next week, starting thursday?
Posted on: 22 October 2009 by Mick P
Chaps
By way of introduction, I was employed by the Post Office for 22 years as a Purchasing Manager. During that time I was responsible for the procurement of all engineering products, printed matter, stamps, marketing services, travel and acommodation services as well as energy.
I am only stating that little lot to hopefully prove that I speak with some knowledge and to prove that both sides have been forced into this position by Nulab.
The problem dates back to the Thatcher era. Her government had a successful track record in privatising major state owned industries. The RM was next on the list. The purpose of privatisation was two fold,
1. To stimulate competition against state owned monopolies and thus force prices down to the consumer
2. To raise cash for HMG's coffers.
The problem with privatising the RM was that no one wanted to be a competitor. The UK has 26.4 million addresses and this figure has remained static for years. Therefore there is no scope for organic growth. If the market was split between say 2 competitors, each may end up servicing 50% of the mail volume which would push prices up because they would be delivering to only 13.2 million addresses and losing the benefits of economy of scale.
It also meant that there would be little or no take up of shares in RM, because it would be deemed to have been a dead duck. Margaret Thatcher therefore dropped the plan by declaring it a "privatisation too far" and the intention was for the Post Office to remain intact under public ownership.
Michael Heseltine who was then the President of the Board of Trade, appointed a regulator whose remit was to ensure that the Post Office served the national interest by keeping prices low and improving services. This worked well for a time.
In 1997, Nulab won the election and Tony Blair increased the Regulators power to the point that if the Regulator snapped his fingers, the Post Office Mamagement had to jump.
The regulator wanted competition but no company was even remotely interested in taking the RM on.
Therefore the Regulator came up with a plan which Blair ignored by turning a blind eye and allowed Brussels to endorse it.
In effect, private companies where allowed to come in and cherry pick the profitable parts of the business such as high volume deliveries by banks and building societies and would be allowed to use the RM infrastucture and Posties to deliver the mail at a fixed rate of 13p per envelope. Also whilst the competitor could lower his price, the RM was bound by law to keep to the original high price.
Therefore the RM was compelled to deliver mail on behalf of a competitor at 13p and it lost money on every single delivery. It could not fight back because it could not do deals on price with customers.
That along with the predicted long term reduction in mail volumes meant that the Post office was on track to lose enormous amounts of money.
The regualator also insisted on changing delivery patterns that could only be funded by shedding jobs.
Thus we have the ludicrous situation where the Regulator backed by Mandelson is forcing the Management to impose measures its knows are wrong in the long term. The union see the madness of this and are trying to fight back and the only effective tool they have is to strike and that hits the nation and customers. Thus public sympathy will erode and the Regulator will win
This puts everyone into a loss situation except the Regulator.
If Nulab had kept the Regulators powers to the same level as what they were under the previous Tory Government, the situation would be nowhere as bad as this.
Alan Leighton, the Chairman of the Post Office once spoke at a presentation on the relationship between the Post Office and the Regulator.
The projector was lit up to reveal a massive blank screen and Leighton famously said .. that blank screen is what the Regulator knows about running a Post Office....he knows nothing.
The purpose of this posting is to illustrate that government interference has damaged what was once a very good public service and that both sides are reluctant participants in a battle they are both doomed to lose.
We will all suffer as a consequence.
Regards
Mick
By way of introduction, I was employed by the Post Office for 22 years as a Purchasing Manager. During that time I was responsible for the procurement of all engineering products, printed matter, stamps, marketing services, travel and acommodation services as well as energy.
I am only stating that little lot to hopefully prove that I speak with some knowledge and to prove that both sides have been forced into this position by Nulab.
The problem dates back to the Thatcher era. Her government had a successful track record in privatising major state owned industries. The RM was next on the list. The purpose of privatisation was two fold,
1. To stimulate competition against state owned monopolies and thus force prices down to the consumer
2. To raise cash for HMG's coffers.
The problem with privatising the RM was that no one wanted to be a competitor. The UK has 26.4 million addresses and this figure has remained static for years. Therefore there is no scope for organic growth. If the market was split between say 2 competitors, each may end up servicing 50% of the mail volume which would push prices up because they would be delivering to only 13.2 million addresses and losing the benefits of economy of scale.
It also meant that there would be little or no take up of shares in RM, because it would be deemed to have been a dead duck. Margaret Thatcher therefore dropped the plan by declaring it a "privatisation too far" and the intention was for the Post Office to remain intact under public ownership.
Michael Heseltine who was then the President of the Board of Trade, appointed a regulator whose remit was to ensure that the Post Office served the national interest by keeping prices low and improving services. This worked well for a time.
In 1997, Nulab won the election and Tony Blair increased the Regulators power to the point that if the Regulator snapped his fingers, the Post Office Mamagement had to jump.
The regulator wanted competition but no company was even remotely interested in taking the RM on.
Therefore the Regulator came up with a plan which Blair ignored by turning a blind eye and allowed Brussels to endorse it.
In effect, private companies where allowed to come in and cherry pick the profitable parts of the business such as high volume deliveries by banks and building societies and would be allowed to use the RM infrastucture and Posties to deliver the mail at a fixed rate of 13p per envelope. Also whilst the competitor could lower his price, the RM was bound by law to keep to the original high price.
Therefore the RM was compelled to deliver mail on behalf of a competitor at 13p and it lost money on every single delivery. It could not fight back because it could not do deals on price with customers.
That along with the predicted long term reduction in mail volumes meant that the Post office was on track to lose enormous amounts of money.
The regualator also insisted on changing delivery patterns that could only be funded by shedding jobs.
Thus we have the ludicrous situation where the Regulator backed by Mandelson is forcing the Management to impose measures its knows are wrong in the long term. The union see the madness of this and are trying to fight back and the only effective tool they have is to strike and that hits the nation and customers. Thus public sympathy will erode and the Regulator will win
This puts everyone into a loss situation except the Regulator.
If Nulab had kept the Regulators powers to the same level as what they were under the previous Tory Government, the situation would be nowhere as bad as this.
Alan Leighton, the Chairman of the Post Office once spoke at a presentation on the relationship between the Post Office and the Regulator.
The projector was lit up to reveal a massive blank screen and Leighton famously said .. that blank screen is what the Regulator knows about running a Post Office....he knows nothing.
The purpose of this posting is to illustrate that government interference has damaged what was once a very good public service and that both sides are reluctant participants in a battle they are both doomed to lose.
We will all suffer as a consequence.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 22 October 2009 by naim_nymph
Thanks Mick
That's a good post!
Debs
That's a good post!
Debs
Posted on: 22 October 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear Mick,
Thanks for your most informative, and reasonable post.
I was hoping that - knowing of your expert knowledge - you would explain that it is not a straight fight between intransigent unions and management, but essentially a political disaster caused by the current governement.
That is assuming I do not put too much meaning to your words. If so I apologise.
As with yourself, I find that I have very little that is generally valued here, and am taking a very serious back-seat with respect to the forum these days.
Kindest regards from George
Thanks for your most informative, and reasonable post.
I was hoping that - knowing of your expert knowledge - you would explain that it is not a straight fight between intransigent unions and management, but essentially a political disaster caused by the current governement.
That is assuming I do not put too much meaning to your words. If so I apologise.
As with yourself, I find that I have very little that is generally valued here, and am taking a very serious back-seat with respect to the forum these days.
Kindest regards from George
Posted on: 22 October 2009 by BigH47
It pains me to say it ,but good post Mick. 
A situation that has occurred in many industries,as you say many of those have a chance to increase their core business.
It would seem there are many people who should put their hands up to apologise, that they will not do of course.
A situation that has occurred in many industries,as you say many of those have a chance to increase their core business.
It would seem there are many people who should put their hands up to apologise, that they will not do of course.
Posted on: 22 October 2009 by Bruce Woodhouse
A very interesting post Mick. I was hoping you'd contribute.
Do you see any solution? Will we ultimately retain a universal service? It is hard to see anyone now suggesting a retreat from privatisation to a state run service.
Do you see any solution? Will we ultimately retain a universal service? It is hard to see anyone now suggesting a retreat from privatisation to a state run service.
Posted on: 22 October 2009 by deadlifter
I wonder how many of you that are bitching about the postie are management
Posted on: 22 October 2009 by Exiled Highlander
I am "management".
I am not bitching about the postie but I am bitching about the "management" not only of the Post Office and CWU but also the Government (of whatever colour) that has allowed it to get to this position. That is collective failure.
This is all about brinkmanship and a political agenda being played out by the Unions, PO Management and the Government. Sometimes you have to create chaos to move forward.
I spend my days trying to "deals". I deal with "partners", I deal with subcontractors, I deal with customers. If can't bring them all together to create a deal that works for everyone then I have failed. That is what I do.
This is failure on behalf of the Unions who are picking a fight to re-establish power, the PO Management who no doubt have an incentive laden comp scheme that includes huge cost reduction targets and a Government that is trying to win re-election by creating a scenario that they will no doubt enter into and try to look like the knight in shining armour by solving.
This is just big boys games and all are pawns.
Cheers
JIm
I am not bitching about the postie but I am bitching about the "management" not only of the Post Office and CWU but also the Government (of whatever colour) that has allowed it to get to this position. That is collective failure.
This is all about brinkmanship and a political agenda being played out by the Unions, PO Management and the Government. Sometimes you have to create chaos to move forward.
I spend my days trying to "deals". I deal with "partners", I deal with subcontractors, I deal with customers. If can't bring them all together to create a deal that works for everyone then I have failed. That is what I do.
This is failure on behalf of the Unions who are picking a fight to re-establish power, the PO Management who no doubt have an incentive laden comp scheme that includes huge cost reduction targets and a Government that is trying to win re-election by creating a scenario that they will no doubt enter into and try to look like the knight in shining armour by solving.
This is just big boys games and all are pawns.
Cheers
JIm
Posted on: 22 October 2009 by Eloise
Fortunately Amazon switch to using City Link and therefore proving that we don't need the Royal Mail in its current form.
I got a package from Amazon via City Link at about 8pm tonight - they're obviously busy!
Eloise
I got a package from Amazon via City Link at about 8pm tonight - they're obviously busy!
Eloise
Posted on: 22 October 2009 by Guido Fawkes
What's wrong with Status Quo.quote:Union dinosaurs wanting to maintain status quo in a changing world....
Crozier fails again - perhaps he'll bring in Sven. Surely management doesn't get any worse that Crozier.
Posted on: 22 October 2009 by naim_nymph
Recent opinion poll from BBC news:
50% have sympathy for the CWU
25% have sympathy for RM Bosses.
50% have sympathy for the CWU
25% have sympathy for RM Bosses.
Posted on: 22 October 2009 by Exiled Highlander
naim_nymph
That is not the impression I get from folks on the ground!
Was one of the questions about overall sadness of everyone?
Jim
That is not the impression I get from folks on the ground!
Was one of the questions about overall sadness of everyone?
Jim
Posted on: 22 October 2009 by naim_nymph
Jim
Where peoples sympathies lie, so to speak…
It's very difficult to know what people think in terms of support for Us or Them.
I think the problem is having good information, the facts, the truth, the whole circumstance, and i don't think many people know, or want to know.
Unfortunately many people nowadays are totally uninterested in supporting other people's problems because they are only interested in helping themselves.
This is why the fat cats can get away with it!
Debs
Where peoples sympathies lie, so to speak…
It's very difficult to know what people think in terms of support for Us or Them.
I think the problem is having good information, the facts, the truth, the whole circumstance, and i don't think many people know, or want to know.
Unfortunately many people nowadays are totally uninterested in supporting other people's problems because they are only interested in helping themselves.
This is why the fat cats can get away with it!
Debs
Posted on: 22 October 2009 by BigH47
quote:Surely management doesn't get any worse than that Crozier.
What about the guy at Ipswich?
Posted on: 22 October 2009 by Guido Fawkes
Roy just gets a bad press, whereas Croze is just bad and not in the Michael Jackson meaning of bad. Postman who brings me loads of CDs through the post is great dude and deserves a bit extra, Croze has never brought anything but misery.quote:Originally posted by BigH47:What about the guy at Ipswich?quote:Surely management doesn't get any worse than that Crozier.
Anyways, here's a song
Posted on: 22 October 2009 by Howlinhounddog
quote:23 Oct 2008 ... Royal Mail doubled its operating profits to £177m in the first half of 2008/09 from a year ago, helped by cost cuts and greater efficiency. ...
Steve, Does'nt that equate to £354m/year?
Mick P, a thoughtful and reasoned argument that I find no fault with.
Jim said
quote:This is just big boys games and all are pawns.
I think that is correct Jim, but it is'nt right.
Eloise said
quote:Fortunately Amazon switch to using City Link and therefore proving that we don't need the Royal Mail in its current form
Do you think Amazon will remain with City Link after the dispute? If not why not?
This is part of the myth comming from Crozier et al. Other delivery companies have been allowed to cherry pick the postal service as Mick suggested.
Can I politely ask of those who feel strongly enough that after the dispute we remind Amazon that the people of this country value our postal service and would be happy for Amazon to continue using it.
If not then get ready to go out in the pouring rain to collect your mail from some central point three streets away because that will be the next modernisation WE will suffer!
regards
Charlie
Posted on: 23 October 2009 by Bruce Woodhouse
We all seem to value our domestic postal service greatly.
How much are we prepared to pay for it? More on the price of stamps, more on public taxation?
Amidst all the posts on this thread so far I don't see anyone making positive/realistic suggestions of a way out of this mess.
Bruce
How much are we prepared to pay for it? More on the price of stamps, more on public taxation?
Amidst all the posts on this thread so far I don't see anyone making positive/realistic suggestions of a way out of this mess.
Bruce
Posted on: 23 October 2009 by Joe Bibb
Mick's post is spot on apart from the reference to previous Tory privatisations. BT were put in the same position of having the playing field skewed and competitors introduced that had no intention of competing on equal terms, or serving remote locations.
The cherry picking of services to artificially introduce competition always ends in tears and any benefits to customers are temporary. Share windfalls and cash for HM Govt are the real (and short term) objectives in each case.
Joe
The cherry picking of services to artificially introduce competition always ends in tears and any benefits to customers are temporary. Share windfalls and cash for HM Govt are the real (and short term) objectives in each case.
Joe
Posted on: 23 October 2009 by Guido Fawkes
I'm happy to pay for it if the money goes to the postman. If it goes to Crozier then I want it back - I begrudge anything of mine that goes to fund that man. He is to blame for creating this situation, but he won't do the honourable thing and go. Says it all really.quote:How much are we prepared to pay for it?
Posted on: 23 October 2009 by Steve2701
Mick,
My hat is doffed to you sir for such an erudite post.
Why is it, that you can search the entire web and finally find an explanation (that I can understand and appears to be nothing but fact) on a reasonably obscure forum such as this? Why can't the CWU put something like this to the press / news? It would make their case appear so much better.
As for apologising - nope.
I, like a huge amount of businesses feel like we are being blackmailed / bullied here, and lets face it - we will always fight to keep our businesses alive however we can. The fact that the CWU has failed to put the case across anywhere near as well as Mick has here should speak volumes. Why didn't Debs post contain any of these facts - instead of calling TNT a parasite - just say it as it is and point out why. Now we can work out for ourselves that maybe something is badly wrong there - and we now know why.
If a cheaper / more efficient way is found to do something we are hardly likely to go backwards.
I was happy to do what we were doing using the RM for delivering posted invoices etc and would have happily continued for the forseeable future - but now we have found (forced to find?) a better solution, I will not be going back.
How many here still have milk delivered? I used to go to concerts with my milkman! Now it's way cheaper to ge it from the supermarket, so we all do. Who laments the passing of there daily delivery? This is the way of life. Same goes for bread.
Will Amazon go back to RM - if they are cheaper then yes they will, if they find a more competative price they will stick with it. They are there to make profit at the end of the day.
As for postmen delivering stuff - I have no feelings. Plenty of folk do tough / boring / tiring jobs and a lot get underpaid for their efforts. They do have choices in life. They chose to do what they do? As I said - I have no feelings either way. We are being told endlessly that this is not about pay though?
The post will inevitably cost more and more as to date it has been partly funded by state as well as volume sent. The argument of here's 37p see how far you can get with that can easily be countered by well actually here's 10 million x 37p but they all need delivering... and the infrastructure is already in place.
The news that they face what would appear to be unfair competition needs to be highlited to a much greater degree as this would be seen for what it is - extremely bad business practice.
If the RM remains state owned postage prices will have to increase - that is fact.
I still maintain that money is needed to see through the modernisation that is needed (that is agreed by all?) to pay for a great many things - from the machines that will help modernise the system to the redundency money that will inevitably be needed to paid out for the workers those machines replace. This has happened in plenty of other industries to and will continue to do so.
Where is that money to come from? There is no government money to be had at all - so that leaves one place.
That place is the one that is currently under the most pressure from the dispute.
As has been said many times already - No-one is going to come out of this well at all.
My hat is doffed to you sir for such an erudite post.
Why is it, that you can search the entire web and finally find an explanation (that I can understand and appears to be nothing but fact) on a reasonably obscure forum such as this? Why can't the CWU put something like this to the press / news? It would make their case appear so much better.
As for apologising - nope.
I, like a huge amount of businesses feel like we are being blackmailed / bullied here, and lets face it - we will always fight to keep our businesses alive however we can. The fact that the CWU has failed to put the case across anywhere near as well as Mick has here should speak volumes. Why didn't Debs post contain any of these facts - instead of calling TNT a parasite - just say it as it is and point out why. Now we can work out for ourselves that maybe something is badly wrong there - and we now know why.
If a cheaper / more efficient way is found to do something we are hardly likely to go backwards.
I was happy to do what we were doing using the RM for delivering posted invoices etc and would have happily continued for the forseeable future - but now we have found (forced to find?) a better solution, I will not be going back.
How many here still have milk delivered? I used to go to concerts with my milkman! Now it's way cheaper to ge it from the supermarket, so we all do. Who laments the passing of there daily delivery? This is the way of life. Same goes for bread.
Will Amazon go back to RM - if they are cheaper then yes they will, if they find a more competative price they will stick with it. They are there to make profit at the end of the day.
As for postmen delivering stuff - I have no feelings. Plenty of folk do tough / boring / tiring jobs and a lot get underpaid for their efforts. They do have choices in life. They chose to do what they do? As I said - I have no feelings either way. We are being told endlessly that this is not about pay though?
The post will inevitably cost more and more as to date it has been partly funded by state as well as volume sent. The argument of here's 37p see how far you can get with that can easily be countered by well actually here's 10 million x 37p but they all need delivering... and the infrastructure is already in place.
The news that they face what would appear to be unfair competition needs to be highlited to a much greater degree as this would be seen for what it is - extremely bad business practice.
If the RM remains state owned postage prices will have to increase - that is fact.
I still maintain that money is needed to see through the modernisation that is needed (that is agreed by all?) to pay for a great many things - from the machines that will help modernise the system to the redundency money that will inevitably be needed to paid out for the workers those machines replace. This has happened in plenty of other industries to and will continue to do so.
Where is that money to come from? There is no government money to be had at all - so that leaves one place.
That place is the one that is currently under the most pressure from the dispute.
As has been said many times already - No-one is going to come out of this well at all.
Posted on: 23 October 2009 by scottyhammer
If the strike goes on through to xmas then i think that the RM and its workers will lose the remaining publics support.
At the end of the day people and businesses will swap to someone who WILL deliver the goods wether its dearer or not. Amazon are already making moves to change and that will be a huge loss for RM.
At the end of the day people and businesses will swap to someone who WILL deliver the goods wether its dearer or not. Amazon are already making moves to change and that will be a huge loss for RM.
Posted on: 23 October 2009 by Guido Fawkes
Mequote:How many here still have milk delivered?
Posted on: 23 October 2009 by naim_nymph
quote:As for postmen delivering stuff - I have no feelings. Plenty of folk do tough / boring / tiring jobs and a lot get underpaid for their efforts. They do have choices in life. They chose to do what they do? As I said - I have no feelings either way.
Blimey! I find it a waste of time arguing with someone with no feelings! : (
Especially while Royal Mail Managers are currently sharing a £10,000,000 Bonus payout!
Debs