Postal Strike

quote:

Blimey! I find it a waste of time arguing with someone with no feelings! : (

Take it as it was meant.

I have no feelings towards my postie as I dont know him / her and hardly ever see one.
Post at home arrives when I'm at work (sometime between 12 and three apparently)
Post at work arrives sometime between 11 and 12 when I'm in my office.
Why should I have any feelings towards posties?
I did ask if anyone laments the passing of the milk / breadman.
Trades now all but lost.
The postie is doing a job - and paid for it.
I do my job and get paid for it


I and plenty like me have worked crazy hours to keep our businesses going and to keep loyal workforces in jobs. I have seen grown men in tears because they have had to lay off workers.


I dont like being backed into a corner and held to ransom by something I have no control over.
What on earth do you expect?

This strike is not about feelings (or pay apparently)

As for arguing - putting your points across in a manner such as M.P. would have far greater impact, and get the facts straight.
As for the apparent £10m payout - what can I do about that? I didn't vote this lot into power!
If correct it is obscene, but as I said - why isn't this point being made on the tv news?

quote:

...calling TNT a parasite

...a person (or Postal Company) who habitually lives at the expense of others; such as getting well paid for collecting huge volumes of corporate mail complete with their own company postal mark on uniform sized envelopes bar coded ready to machine sort into Delivery areas.
Then it's dumped on Royal Mail who are force by law to re-process for delivery distribution, and deliver this post to the door. This last part is the most labour intensive and costly so Royal Mail make a big loss on this,(but RM has to it's the Law) the Private Postal Companies make a fortune for doing very little, the corporate firms that use this service save enough money to give their MD’s a bigger bonus too.
This is the same principal as when Mercury was legally allowed to (ab)use BT's phone lines.

Over many years it's public money that has built up BT and Royal Mail, so why should Private joe bloggs Companies be allowed to make easy big-bucks profits from using the expertise of workers or infrastructure from a Public funded corporation?

Royal Mail are in a position where we cannot compete with these laws and rules. The harder RM staff work at sorting/delivery of this Private Company mail,(known as DSA or Down Stream Access) the more RM loses and the more successful the Private companies become. Parasite is the very correct term for it.

I don't believe many people in the general public realise this goes on, or the fact that Royal Mail Posties deliver this 'other company' mail at a great loss.

Debs

quote:

Originally posted by Steve2701:
[QUOTE]
I dont like being backed into a corner and held to ransom by something I have no control over.

You could be one of us feeling like that!

...and you said you had no feelings?.. Oh Yes you Do!

Debs

Finally - light instead of heat.
If you had posted that in the first instance we could have worked out for ourselves what was going on.
Some of us need to make decisions based on fact - not someone calling a company a parasite.
After I read Micks post that part became very apparent. Just say the parasite is stealing our business looked to me like a form of competition, which is what business is all about. Unfair competition is never good - and is not something I would support.
I do now understand what is going on - but please do not expect support for a strike from me though - I have never supported any strike of any sort, as I do not believe in them - they only ever do harm in the long term.
Why oh why cant you get your union to put up the facts like you just have above - it would have far greater impact.
As for Micks post - it has to be said - (and this is meant with complete respect for MP) that from someone who comes across as a Thatcherite capitalist he has done for the Union everything they have failed to in one post.
Now one from me - do you expect any good to come from this?
I just see it becoming very bitter and a mud slinging match - which may well grind on to the next election.
I guess the outcome for the RM would then be completely inevitable.

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:
A very interesting post Mick. I was hoping you'd contribute.

Do you see any solution? Will we ultimately retain a universal service? It is hard to see anyone now suggesting a retreat from privatisation to a state run service.

Bruce

There is no solution. The problem is that the system of cherry picking and paying the RM 13p per envelope has been endorsed by the EU. That was a crafty move pulled by the regulator.

What will happen is that this strike will be the first of many. Both sides are trapped and there is no way out, so the current problems will just carry on. The regulator is imposing his will and the management have to do what they are told. The regulator sets targets and if those targets are not met, then the RM gets fined.

More major customers will pull away from RM and use private couriors and so the damage escalates.

The RM infracture for letters will still remain and will probably be modernised but the Post Office staff will be forced to lower prices and increase productivity. They will be effectively outsourced to DHL etc who will be able to act like Tescos who force milk prices down on farmers.

The infractstructure will be sold at a low price and in return the RM pension deficit will be underwritten by the taxpayer (which is good news for me and all posties)in order to relieve DHL and the others of inheriting a crippling debt. No one will buy the RM because of the pension deficit.

Therefore the prediction is that mail will still be delivered, but due to lower volumes the price will rise. The EU has little sympathy for the universal tarif so domestic mail prices will rise and commercial mail prices will lower.

The RM infrastructure will be jointly owned by a consortium of logistic companies.

The only hope, surprisingly, is if the Tories win the next election. Most rural areas vote Tory and it is those rural votors who face the highest price increases and probably will lose door to door delivery as is the case in many European countries. For instance, I collect my mail in Spain from the local bar about a quarter of a mile away and collections may only happen once a week. The Tory MPs may force the regulator to back track but in my opinion, the battle is already lost. The EU are now effectively running the show and this was done very quietly.

Regards

Mick

Hey there UK,

At least yours just go on strike.

Ours tend to grab an automatic weapon and take out either their co-workers, or group of people at the shopping mall.

Where's the gun, where's the tower, where's the gun, wheres the tower.....
- The US Postal Service mantra.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve2701:
Why oh why cant you get your union to put up the facts like you just have above - it would have far greater impact.

<snip>

Now one from me - do you expect any good to come from this?
I just see it becoming very bitter and a mud slinging match - which may well grind on to the next election.

Union reps are individuals, (but allowing for over-generalizations) a couple i know are absolutely brilliant, probably because they behave like mangers ought, fair-minded, respectful, good at sorting problems out etc.
But many union reps are beers swilling loafers who do the job because no one else wants to, (or can't keep up with the beer drinking at the pub union meetings).
Many top union guys are very thuggish, perhaps very old-fashioned and luddite.
But the interface is polarised. The modern shift/line manager is a rat-race orientated selfish bully who's aim is to get up the greasy pole while stabbing people in the back, fiddling production target figures and banking the occasional few grand size bonus.
These two groups get even more extreme as they progress up the ladder.

It is true that Dave Ward and Billy Bumble aren't exactly ‘articulate’ (as Bruce pointed out), and i couldn't agree more, it’s terrible PR. But silver-tongued union leaders are very short in supply these days, I think the last one was Arthur Scargill.

However, the top executive managers are millionaires who enjoy being utter ruthless (and completely unsympathetic and out of touch with working class people and employees) and expect the god-given right to grab huge 6 or 7 figure sum bonuses for themselves which they never ever deserve.

So when it comes down to who i want to look after my welfare, I need to choose the Union Thug every time.

Over the years the CWU made many mistakes, the biggest clanger (imo) was around 5 years ago when they gave their support for this open competition, and no one told them it would be open for everyone except Royal Mail!
So DSA (Down Stream Access) competitors mail was permitted, and this was the thin edge of the wedge. It’s been going on a few years and there is tons of the stuff now.
Shame the CWU let this happen, goes to show they’re not very clever.

The recession/credit crunch has played well into the hands of management now, with so much cheap labour around who are willing to work in crap conditions for a mean boss. But this isn’t so much about Royal Mail but a sign of the times, the poor are experiencing a new social engineering, the workers are engaged in a race to the bottom, to poverty, who will all compete to out poor each other.
Meanwhile the rich will all compete to get super-rich.

My crystal ball is a bit cloudy today... but i think this strike will get sorted out next week, and all it will do is buy us is some time, and a stay of execution.

Debs

Debs,
Illumination and clarity - well done and to be applauded.
Your last couple of posts have been precisely what is needed in this mess. Precise fact about how you feel this is being handled and the very root of the problem.
I have learnt far more from being here and reading than anything on the radio or the TV.
Does that tell you anything?
To even begin to dent your problem these facts need to be given a huge audience and in a manner as here - not from who is currently doing the job.
There is always another way - though may in this case be very difficult to find.
Your cause needs the backing of the whole of the uk - and far more would back it if they saw this kind of thing.
A lot of us can work out that what is coming from the top is mostly propoganda and trying to make them look like they are doing the right thing.
Fighting back with stuff like the last two posts from you would put real dents in their performance.

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
There is no solution. The problem is that the system of cherry picking and paying the RM 13p per envelope has been endorsed by the EU. That was a crafty move pulled by the regulator.

Yes there is a solution, null and void the licence for foreign contractors to use Royal Mail, in other words; stop DSA and regain Royal Mail's monopoly for UK's universal Postal Service.
The deal was originally intended to be a a 2-way street with Royal Mail buying into European mail services, but we are not allowed to do that, just them over here taking our revenue. This is totally unfair.
If Royal Mail was once again a UK monopoly, and modernised (in a sensible way instead of the asset stripping way that's going on) then it would make a lot of money, far more than now, and as a government run corporation all the excess profits would go towards the public purse. That would be a lot a money so would be good for the UK, but as it stands now the success of TNT, DHL et al will make big profits and take this money out of the UK and into Europe.

quote:

The infrastructure will be sold at a low price and in return the RM pension deficit will be underwritten by the taxpayer (which is good news for me and all posties)in order to relieve DHL and the others of inheriting a crippling debt. No one will buy the RM because of the pension deficit.

Translation: The infrastructure will get asset-stripped against the wishes of the company employees because they are blackmailed with the threat of corrupt legalized embezzlement of their hard earned pensions.
Only goes to show how fundamentally dishonest this arrangement is.

quote:

Therefore the prediction is that mail will still be delivered, but due to lower volumes the price will rise. The EU has little sympathy for the universal tarif so domestic mail prices will rise and commercial mail prices will lower.

Yes but probably ending of the universal tariff too, so expect big price hikes for Scotland outlying areas, Highlands, isles, and all outer rural areas of England Wales too, Northern Ireland will probably get the Foreign Eire rate applied.

quote:

The only hope, surprisingly, is if the Tories win the next election. Most rural areas vote Tory and it is those rural votors who face the highest price increases and probably will lose door to door delivery as is the case in many European countries.

It will be a disaster if the Tories get in next year. Cameron and Clarke have already trumpeted their absolute support for privatising Royal Mail at lightning speed. The Tory-Toff party is only ever interesting in the welfare of rich folk anyway, they love their friends the bankers, and stockbrokers who are very aware of the huge potential money making market in the UK's post.
I know it's a shame Gordon Brown feels the same way, and now he’s distanced himself by chucking Mandleson at us. Gordon’s announced his hatred for us 2 years ago with the pension scandal, which incidently is one of the unresolved issues that has caused the recent strike.

quote:

For instance, I collect my mail in Spain from the local bar about a quarter of a mile away and collections may only happen once a week. The Tory MPs may force the regulator to back track but in my opinion, the battle is already lost. The EU are now effectively running the show and this was done very quietly.
Regards
Mick

The first topic of unresolved strike issues is the Secret Business Plan. CWU have asked to know what is on the cards for the next 3 years but Royal Mail management tell us nothing. We believe they know which mail centres will close down, who and where the redundancies will be, where the new machinery will go. Also on the Business Plan is possible redundancy of 1000's of posties in outer rural area's where the public will no longer have a postal delivery so will have to travel out to collect their mail, many of these will be a long way to travel. So you may find yourself driving a round trip of 25 miles to pick you mail up every week... and may also have to pay a fee for P.O. Box!
Also, if you every get a card though you door - Sorry you were out, we tried to delivery a packet/parcel so pay us £20 for redelivery or pick it up yourself etc… you will need to go to the nearest call centre, and with so many closed down Royal Mail and Parcel Force outlets this distance could be 30, 40, 50 miles away?
Hope the people affected have lots of time on there hands and money to buy fuel for the car.
Should have a public enquiry really, so people know what service they will be in for.

Debs

What the Royal Mail board members got...

Alan Leighton, former non-executive chairman

Salary £129,000

Bonus £889,000

Adam Crozier, chief executive

Salary £3,612,000

Bonus £2,467,000

Alan Cook, director

Salary £1,046,000

Bonus £473,000

Ian Duncan, director

Salary £925,000

Bonus £429,000

Mark Higson, director

Salary £848,000

Bonus £313,000

Former directors

David Burden

Salary £821,000

Bonus £428,000

Ian Griffiths

Salary £1,000,000

Bonus £262,000

Tony McCarthy

Salary £1,369,000

Bonus £641,000

David Mills

Salary £818,000

Bonus £322,000

Marisa Cassoni

Salary £963,000

Bonus £340,000

Elmar Toime

Salary £541,000

Bonus £178,000

Jerry Cope

Salary £318,000

Bonus £113,000

John Roberts

Salary £561,000

Bonus £185,000

2008-09

Adam Crozier

Salary £633,000

Bonus £453,000

Alan Cook

Salary £282,000

Bonus £166,000

Ian Duncan

Salary £325,000

Bonus £186,000

Mark Higson

Salary £428,000

Bonus £231,000

Well, it's clear then Debs.
If every member of the board has almost doubled their salary AND MADE BONUS(more than quadrupled in some cases)the postal workers need to believe everything they say, after all with such collosal increases these are surely some of the greatest buisiness people around!
However, there appears to be a bit of Union bashing going on here. Union officials sometimes are boorish , inarticulate thugs, this in many cases allows these people to deal with similar management types.
If you are a Union member and don't like it then don't vote for this type and put your own head above the parapet and represent your collegues!

Howlinhounddog

I don't think there has ever been a worse time to be an executive CWU rep. They are up against a team of managerial blaggards who excel in deviousness, and which is always the way with their kind of intelligence.
The Union guys may come across a bit rough n ready, but nearly all of them have their heart in the right place, well.., unless there stomachs are full of beer ; )

Meanwhile Royal Mail have donated huge resources of executive and senior management in thinking out this get rich quick scheme for themselves while they ruin us, and possibly with a lot of secret government backing.
About a year ago I read a memo that explained the expenditure of £200,000 on special Italian designer chairs and desks that went to the 150 Senior Managers in their new London HQ just to help them feel comfortable and important as they hatch their plots against us!

So quite frankly i'm not getting too particular about the demeanour of my union rep, i do support them 100% when fighting my corner. I am a union member, but not a rep, and i'm pretty sure i wouldn't get enough votes to stand if I did being a woman, with blonde hair, non beer drinker etc.

Debs

quote:

Adam Crozier, chief executive

Salary £3,612,000

Bonus £2,467,000

Unbelievable - at least £6,079,000 more than he deserves - it really is just a rip off of public money.

couldn't agree more ROTF. Queue the "you have to pay the salaries to get the right people" posts.
Shame that system doesn't work then, it also says nothing about giving bonuses for nothing.

BigH

You do have to pay the right salaries to get the right people but in this case they picked the wrong one!

Cue the "these salaries are outrageous" in any business posts!

For what it's worth, Tony Hayward, CEO of BP has a base salary of £998K with a bonus of $1.50M. Seems disproportionately - low in comparison with Crozier!

Cheers

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:

quote:

Adam Crozier, chief executive

Salary £3,612,000

Bonus £2,467,000

Unbelievable - at least £6,079,000 more than he deserves - it really is just a rip off of public money.

It's a rip-off of anyone's money, especially when you consider he only works one day a week for Royal Mail!
Debs

OK, I did some checking....Croziers's salary and bonus is a follows:

2008-09, Adam Crozier, Salary £633,000, Bonus £453,000

He does not earn £3.6M base and £2.5M bonus. That would be his cumulative earnings in the post since 2003 (I believe).

No that doesn't make it "all right" before anyone asks but does make more sense from a benchmarking perspective vs. private enterprise.

Cheers

Jim

quote:

hat would be his cumulative earnings in the post since 2003 (I believe).

I prefer to say what he's got - it is more than questionable that these are earnings - as earn means to receive as return for effort and especially for work done or services rendered, in which case it has earned £0, but taken home far more.

If your letter doesn't arrive on time then write to Croze and complain - it his fault. If only there was a law that made executives personally accountable for the mess they take ... now that I would vote for.

Had a Postal delivery on Thursday.
The post was delivered by the Managers, who made it happen at least an hour before our normal random, when they can be bothered to fit our round in, Post Person does it.

I get the impression the Post Office needs to wake up and smell the Coffee. The Public wants it's letters delivered reliably and at the best possible price.

The nature of the over Unionised beast is that something has to give. Obviously nobody wants jobs to be deliberately cut, but to provide an efficient and cost effective service something has to give.

If it is not the Postal Workers' jobs then what is it?

Have you read the posts that actually explain what is wrong, earlier in the thread?

If you had then you would not propose the question you do at the end of your post.

But no doubt you are just waiting for someone to ask you to answer your own question, as without doubt you are right ....

George

Or he could have come to a different conclusion based on whose propaganda is to be believed?

Certainly his is a grossly simplified view but as inept as Crozier appears to be, few would argue that the Post Office needs a dramatic overhaul.

Cheers

Jim

Jim

The Post Office has provided a good service for 380 years and it has a good history of management and the workforce working together.

The management and the workforce are not that far apart, none of them are fools, they recognise that change is needed and they will change as required.

Unfortnately it is the Regulator driven by the EU who is running the show and that is something that need to be recognised.

No business can be run by several bosses with differing agendas.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
The management and the workforce are not that far apart, none of them are fools, they recognise that change is needed and they will change as required.

It could be said that much of the factory floor management is not that far apart, although many (who are fools) now think they will be frequently rewarded with big bonuses...
But the senior/executive managers are on a different planet all together. The interface is a class war between the greedy well off and the people trying to make ends meet and worrying about their pensions, job security etc.
Whether change is needed or not depends on what's on the Top Secret business plan agenda!
The change they are going for is replacing all full time jobs with part timers.
This is not necessary, and is also nothing to do with 'modernisation'.

quote:

Unfortnately it is the Regulator driven by the EU who is running the show and that is something that need to be recognised.
Regards
Mick

That's true.
I only wish the CWU reps would speak up the UK public about it.

Debs

quote:

That's true.
I only wish the CWU reps would speak up the UK public about it.

That's part of the problem the CWU faces Debs.
Speaking as a serving TU official now, I have found in previous disputes I have been involved in that it is almost impossible to get a right wing press to give a balanced view of any dispute between a TU and management.
The reporter on the ground, so to speak ,will happily listen to all of the arguments that you put to them, then when the article/report is published the editorial postition of the newspaper is set to default and any argument is lost in what is either a veiled (or not so) critisism of "left wing neanderthal trade unionists".
Perhaps if the print/tv media of this country behaved as they should by ensuring acurate,quality reporting of news, instead of trying to win elections for whowever will give the paper owners the biggest tax breaks, then newspaper sales would not be in the doldrums.

For me the Post Office/Royal Mail is a social service that should be a monopoly, owned by the Nation, and run at reasonable cost for the Nation. Unfortunately the EU stuck its oar in - it did the same with Football Pay TV and now there are two subscriptions to pay!

The Government removes services from the Post Office then closes branches stating there isn't enough business. TNT, DHL et al cherry pick, winning lucrative contracts knowing any unprofitable post can be dumped on Royal Mail for a fee that doesn't cover Royal Mail's costs. On the other side of the coin is the VAT issue, but it wouldn't exist with a State monopoly and the EU butting out.

TNT struggling with their workforce and profits, yet they are the answer?

We had second delivery, Sunday service, postmen/women we knew, local branches ... We are heading to delivery two or three times a week, more post having to be collected and travelling greater distance to do so, paying a higher price for the privilege with any profit going to the foreign companies that will be the postal service.

Cheers,
OW