Going Non Ferrous - a Cat's Tale

Posted by: Top Cat on 20 December 2001

Hi folks.

I'm coming out of my 'hibernation' to fill in a few gaps and clarify some of the rumours that I hear have been flying around regarding stands and so on. Firstly, this is a rather long post, so please bear with me. It backs up a lot of what Tony Lonorgan has been claiming for a while, and at the same time fills in some of the facts behind the recent Mana bust-up. You might find this interesting

As you might recall from some other threads, I've been fairly open-minded about hearing some of the newer equipment supports recently. I had been using a Mana Phase 8 system, comprised around a three-tier rack and soundstages with reference top on the top. I'd worked my way toward this from the early days of my Arcam amps and cd-player with my LP12. Under Arcam amps, Mana does wonderful things. Much of the weaker aspects of the Arcam sound, and those that would of course attract criticism here (i.e. a somewhat wooly bass and laid-back presentation), were reversed by the Mana. Mana gave the lazy Arcam amps a kick up the ass and injected a sense of pace and energy which had been lacking somewhat. On this premise, I'd slowly built up my Mana into a mini oil-rig, as many others have done.

Along the way, I changed my amps, my LP12 fell off the wall and died, and the resulting insurance settlement allowed me to change my CD player, get a better turntable and part-fund a new preamp. In other words, in a few months my entire system changed (except for my Neat Speakers) and took its place upon the Tower of Mana. Everything initially seemed fine, but I increasingly had the sneaking suspicion that something wasn't quite right. Whilst I was getting an incredibly fast, open and detailed sound, there was a slight edge to the sound which didn't rest easily with my ear. It sounded just a little 'crystalline', or 'etched', not terribly so, but something which became apparent after living with the system for a short while.

My first thoughts were to check setup and allow some further break-in time; Mana racks do need to settle, and if the setup wasn't spot on, the settling would reveal this. Perhaps I'd knocked the rack or upset it on removing my old gear. Perhaps it was some other thing altogether, but nonetheless, the setup of the Mana needed to be checked. I decided a complete re-setup was required. Having reset my entire Mana stack (levelled correctly using the spirit level, all shelves in tune and bolts tightened by a tiny amount past finger tight, with the spikes low, i.e. by the book) and allowed for a bit of settling, I was still a little stumped by the fact that the 'crystalline' sound was still there. In an investigation to discover what might be wrong, I moved the DNM preamp (which had been sitting on one of the shelves of the rack) away from the rack and onto a handy (but slightly wobbly) MDF shelving unit. Thus, the plastic pal preamp was now a couple of feet away from the Mana and the other components.

Result? I was shocked and stunned to find that the sound improved vastly. I was in a bit of denial, as anyone who is a regular here will know that I was as passionate about my Mana as anyone else, and I was admittedly a bit reluctant to put two and two together and admit what was happening. To all intents and purposes, the Mana, or the proximity of other items of equipment to the preamp, was ruining the sound. I didn't know which.

Using a spare flattop+glass on the floor (thus eliminating proximity to other components as an issue), I found that the sound was indeed cleaner than it had been near to other components, but still not right. The preamp sounded better on the floor or the MDF shelf, a most unusual and contrary observation. I simply refused to accept that my beloved Mana could be the problem. I put it down to perhaps ferrous influence rather than anything about the Mana itself.

I looked into the possibility of keeping the preamp on its own, perhaps on a wallshelf, but in a moment of weakness I decided to borrow a non-ferrous rack from my dealer. Curious about the experiences of Tony Lonorgan, I was keen to try the QS Reference. I borrowed it for a weekend, and initially tried just my preamp on it. Things sounded a heck of a lot better than they'd done on the floor, and the improvement over the preamp on Mana was incredible, although I again was reluctant to accept what my ears were telling me.

I'd also noticed that the pointy aluminium feet on my turntable did not really like the glass:spike interface of the Mana stand, so (just as an experiment) I tried the TT on the QS Reference. I was surprised to hear an improvement, but in a musical, foot-tappin'-rather-than-hifi way. I had expected a regular-QS-style 'muffling' of detail and wooliness in the midrange and bass. However, nothing was further from the truth. The best way I could describe the improvement was like comparing a quality hand-printed colour photograph (QS Ref) to a Photoshop'd scan and hi-res inkjet print (with sharpening and saturation) (Mana) - i.e. I felt that the QS Reference let the true music flow out in a way that Mana emulated, but never quite achieved in the context of my system*.

I was hearing the tune, the essence of the music in all of its true glory, for the first time. As Steven Toy had alluded, the musical sense and purpose of whatever I played on the system was so much more realistic, enjoyable, clearer and, well, better.

I realised then that if I ever made my feelings on this vocal, I would tread a very troubled path indeed. This was confirmed, of course, in my run-in with the Mana Faithful - it was inevitable!

And, yes, that run-in: A lot of bad-blood, misinformation and storms being brewed in teacups. A lot of it was pretty nasty, with threats, backstabbing and personal slurs from certain members of the Mana Faithful. I had expected some kind of abuse, but was very surprised in the extremity of the response. My dealer, who actually deals in Fraim, QS Ref and Mana was shocked and stunned by the whole thing - after all, they said it well: "Whose business is it anyway which stand one prefers?" - and they are correct. Of course, at that point in time the fact I was planning a 'defection' was circulating as a rumour rather than a confirmed-by-me fact. However, the run-in should by now be water under the bridge now and I hope everyone has moved on.

Yes, I have indeed defected from Mana to QS Reference, following the path that others have taken before me. It could well be that it's just that the Mana sound doesn't suit everyone - it's certainly not down to tuning or setup, as was claimed in another place - it was interesting to watch them attempt to discredit me as they had tried with others before... tsk tsk. What they forgot is that nobody would ever get as far as Phase 8 unless the stuff actually worked - which it did - it is just that it doesn't work well for my current system and I tell it like it is.

As an interesting aside, I have actually added Mana underneath my speakers and there it works wonderfully, which goes to show that the product may well compliment your existing kit beautifully, in which case you will be very happy with it. On the other hand, it could ruin the sound, in which case you will not. More likely is that bits of it work better than other bits (e.g. Mana under the speakers versus under the preamp in my case). Something to bear in mind, no question.

I still have a lot of my Mana - the three tier, a few flattops and a PSU table - the rest is now sold. I should have my own QS Reference fairly soon now, and will post a proper review of it, compared to Mana Phase 4 (which is what I have left) early next year. I'll try it with the Nait-2, my system, my old Arcam amps (which these days do AV only) and extend the invitation to several others who (like me) remain open-minded about such things.

I'm glad that this side of things is now out in the open, it's been a point I've been itching to make! To the Mana people, I am really honestly happy that you are happy with what your Mana does to your systems - and that, ultimately, is what it's all about. The Music, no more, no less.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

* One thing I refuse to do is overtly criticise the Mana support system. It worked for me for long enough, and does enough good things to justify its place as a fore-runner in the support wars. However, it's not perfect and as I have discovered, with some gear it imparts a rather unpleasant harmonic imbalance - my preamp and turntable clearly sound worse on Mana than on the QS Reference - other manufacturers obviously have taken note of what Mana does and doesn't do and improved upon it. If you'd have told me this three months ago, I'd have laughed at you, but that was before I'd tried it for myself. The fact is that, whilst the Mana rack was wonderfully 'impressive' and 'exciting', it wasn't really musical to my ears with my latest kit; the QS Reference destroyed it in this regard, although until I had decided what I was going to do, I played this down for fear of retribution!! The fact that Mana didn't work well and QS Ref did I have put down to a synergy issue, and suggest anyone who is considering Mana try the QS Reference and the Fraim too (if it's in your price bracket - it was too expensive to be realistically considered in mine). I can no longer recommend Mana irrespective of the kit you will place on it. CHris Koster may well have been right - and I owe you a big apology, my friend, for being so blinkered in the past. Feel free to say "I told you so!"

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Simon Matthews

A very interesting account of your experiences w.r.t supports. I have heard qs and mana on a number of occasions but not qs ref. I recently took the plunge and got some fraim and totally love what it does musically in my system. Have you tried out any similar experiments with fraim and what is your dealers opinions of the various merits of his stands on offer?

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Top Cat

I would have loved to try Fraim but for a few points:

1. Price: it's too much - having piled quite a fair wad of cash into Mana, any change would have to be entirely funded from the sale of old Mana. Also see 3, below.

2. Glass shelves: As mentioned, these don't really work well with the sharp, aluminium spiked feet of my TT, and using 'saucers' or 'intermediary feet' on the Mana robbed a bit of musicality from the sound (etchiness aside)

3. Width: Fraim's just a bit too wide - my room is small and as there is no wallshelf, I'd need two Fraim stacks - too wide for the alcove I plan to house my gear in.

In fairness, I am sure Fraim is superb, but not for me (although my dealer was keen to point out that it was very very good).

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Steve G

quote:
Originally posted by Paul D:
As for threats from anyone that is just silly. The only threat I have seen posted is that if you ring Mr. Pig he will give you a piece of his mind. I think you are more than adequately thick skinned enough to cope with that.
Paul Duerden

There was rather a more direct physical threat posted by the "Hooch" user I believe.

Regards
Steve

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Top Cat

Without re-igniting the debate...

quote:
The criticism of your behaviour started with a lot of Mana which you got Hooch to buy, which he ws good enough to both pay for and pick up for you. Six months later you had still not paid him or made any attempt anyone could see to do so.

Actually, the last I heard from Hooch he was getting quotes for a courier. Since then I've been unable to contact him, and do not have his address. As far as I was aware, he was 'getting round to it'. If he's been threatening me subsequently, fair dos. If he's listening to the crap on the Mana forum, third hand, without at least giving me a call (he has my number) to find out what my plan is for the stages, then what am I supposed to do? He's never in when I call...

quote:
Several unfortunate deals with TF

Urm, you mean the Lingo that Parcel Farce lost? Not my fault, and that's all in the past. What about the cartridge I bought off TF which went open-coil? Again, I had to foot the bill for that one. Unfortunate? Yes, for me. But again, you know none of the facts.

quote:
Mr. Pig called round he was not even offered a biscuit let alone a sandwich

...except for the fact I took his family out once and paid for a chinese meal for them all? Did he mention that one? Or the fact I gave him a PC scanner? Did he handily forget to tell you that? As I said, get all of the facts straight first. Mr Pig is just a drama queen.

quote:
and on one occasion was obliged to drive with his young son to a Macdonalds ,in rush hour, to get a bite to eat.

...but he conveniently declines to mention that this was certainly on another day, another place. I've only ever met up with Mr Pig once on a work day (-> rush hour), and that was when we all met up to go and see Suzanne Vega play in Edinburgh. His son was not there. He is making all of this up, he's stirring.

quote:
The situation worsened when Ian Wright drove up to your place with a buyer for your Mana rack , and was not so much offered a crust of bread , let alone a thankyou.

Actually, we know the facts here and he was over two hours late (ask him, he will confirm) and 90 minutes late before he even called to let me know he was still coming. Veggie chili was long since put in the freezer by that point. Again, ask him, he will confirm this. And I did thank him. I also bought his Gravitas stands.

quote:
This really did not sit well with TF, Pog JW or myself who think Ian is a very good bloke.

And so he is? For once thing, I have never had any direct contact with Pog so couldn't give a damn what he thinks - what is any of this to him, anyway? If you like, I will forward the emails of Ian's to you, the ones in which he apologises - and you can get an independent techie type to verify that the emails haven't been tampered with. Again, you speak knowing only a severely distorted and skewed view of things - exactly the kind of behaviour I didn't expect from you. And exactly the sort of behaviour which gives the Mana forum a bad name, despite having some good people on it.

quote:
Then again they havn't pulled stunts like the ones mentioned above.

And neither have I. If your 'friends' had been honest from the word go, you'd know this and realise that you've been had - a web of lies and deceit which mushroomed out of a few misinterpreted words and a few omissions - but no, you are not really prepared to take a rational and informed stance. No, you wish to lash out at someone you've never met on the basis of the ravings of those who also haven't met me.

quote:
I think you need to take more care in the way you deal with people TC or you will find that you alienate more people than just us lot.

Again, you simply bark up the wrong tree.

quote:
As for threats from anyone that is just silly. The only threat I have seen posted is that if you ring Mr. Pig he will give you a piece of his mind.

Hey, like anyone listens to him anyway...

I had threats via email. Nothing that I took seriously - surely nobody on the Mana forum would be that stupid - after all, it's only hifi - but threats nonetheless.

Dearie me, how long is it going to take you to realise that you never did know anything about this, only speculation, lies and hearsay?

I have no grudges to bear with you, Paul, and if someone came on here to slag you off, I would be loathe to believe a word of it. Ever heard of a vendetta? Well, now you have. I just suggest that you, and anyone else not involved, think carefully about my words above.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Top Cat

You might want to consider how you will back up these accusations and slurs. Think very carefully about the spot you place yourself and Naim in when you make allegations that you cannot verify.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Top Cat

Paul, why don't you ask Colin about the scanner and the chinese meal? Why don't you ask TF about the Lingo and Parcel Farce? Why don't you ask Ian about the running misunderstanding?

Do you see what I'm getting at here? And as for legal threats, I don't see any? I just said to think carefully about what you are saying.

In any case, I can't see why any of this matters to you. The Hooch thing I agree is unfortunate - I had been trying to get that sorted out for months before this all came up, and sadly that is now all rolled in with the rest of this malarkey - but the fact remains that I still don't have an address for Hooch and he hasn't returned a call for ages. What am I meant to do? Send him an owl?

Your move, Paul.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Greg Beatty

quote:
and why do they only lie to and about TC?

...don't!

- GregB
Still Banned

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Top Cat

What do you mean? Are you saying that they weren't lying? Perhaps if I weren't such a nice person I'd argue that they were, but I prefer to think of it as 'misinformation, omission and falsification'.

Make of that what you will...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Steve Catterall

Paul ... all your arguments are based on hearsay, and a selective reading of the Forums.

Yes - there has been much about how TC didn't say thank you in quite the required manner (mana), and how tea and biscuits wasn't provided at the appropriate moment ... obviously hideous crimes ... but there has also been personal attacks on TC's girlfriend (for which JW later appologised) and claims that TC 'lied' about his mana.

I've had dealings with TC (I bought a Sub off him earlier this year), and while I have to admit that he didn't offer me any food or drink, he did sort out the delivery of the Sub, including sorting out problems with the delivery company, and came across as a very nice, helpful person.

I'm sorry, but even if TC had been a miserable bastard, and made me sort out my own delivery, and failed to feed me when I thought appropriate, it wouldn't have justified the vitriol written on the Mana forum about him.

I doesn't help when you bring your blind support for events that you were not party to over to this forum and start stiring things up again.

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Simon Matthews

"I cannot believe the lies that Tight c**t has written in Sheepland"

Is this a good enough example of the depth and quality of the chat over at mana w.r.t to this whole thing?

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Top Cat

Cheers - I wish I'd kept that sub, though, as you know well. I could, of course, have packed some tea in a thermos and some McVities in with the sub, but I clean forgot the ettiquette of the situation.

To try and be objective here, I want to stress that any arguments pro- and anti-TC are not relevant to what I posted about this morning: I was documenting some of the background to my decision to change stands. Some of you might find that interesting, I hope.

In summary: Mana does indeed work for many situations, but didn't quite do it under my current kit. I tried to rationalise in all ways but the obvious, which was that some kit simply doesn't like it. As a consequence, I have transferred to QS Reference under the terms of the Bosman Ruling...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Top Cat

I'm with George Washington on this one. I will swear any number of oaths, take lie-detector tests and so on, but the fact is that there are many over there who bay for the blood of those who do not worship 'their God'.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Joe Petrik

Paul,

quote:
I think I've put forward the main beefs that some of the people on the Mana Forum have and explained that the attitudes that are going around are not in this instance to do with choice of stand but are far more personal.

With all due respect, why not let the allegedly wronged people speak for themselves -- except, of course, for Mr. Piggy who can't?

Joe

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Simon Matthews

"there are many over there who bay for the blood of those who do not worship 'their God'".

Of late that is exactly how it looks to an outsider. I am curious as to why Paul is so keen to fight other peoples battles, especially as the original thread was not refering to this boring slaging match.

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Top Cat

...who will write to you, Paul. I don't know what he will say, but as you may yet realise, most of this whole thing is really a storm in a teacup and the result of Chinese whispers and ill-informed hearsay. I see no reason to castigate you for being swayed by the herd, Paul, but urge you to at least consider the possibility I have put to you today.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Steve G

quote:
Originally posted by Simon Matthews:
"there are many over there who bay for the blood of those who do not worship 'their God'".
Of late that is exactly how it looks to an outsider. I am curious as to why Paul is so keen to fight other peoples battles, especially as the original thread was not refering to this boring slaging match.

And Paul D has also just created a new thread on the Mana forum, refering directly to John as "tight c..t" asking for ammunition and support for his postings on this thread.

In the past I've had a fair bit of time for Paul D's posts but this one on the Mana forum does him no creditat all I can't see why any reasonable person having to resort to abuse of that nature.

Regards
Steve

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Top Cat

Seeing as you're in Edinburgh, would you like to pop round for tea and biscuits. Perhaps hear the QS Ref versus Mana comparison (once I get it all setup just so) and then have some more tea and biscuits. ANd then you can slag me off. It's okay, go on, give it your best shot!

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Steve Catterall

quote:
I think the stirring up happened right at the beginning of the thread with the implication that none ferrous supports were the sole reason for the rumpus on the Mana Forum. That is what I meant to argue against. And succeeded.

I'm sorry Paul, but the way it looks to me is that TC posted a detailed description of why he has decided that Mana is no longer for him, mentioning very briefly that he thought this was the main reason for attacks on the Mana forum.

You have hijacked the thread to continue, what Joe correctly points out, is not your battle.

If people have a problem with the way they think TC interacted with them, then they should take it up with him personally ... by private e-mail perhaps.

It doesn't look particularly good when people (like you), who aren't actually involved, round on someone like a pack of animals.

and yes i think you have succeeded, in bringing a sample of the mindless slagging that goes on on the Mana forum to this one.

Having said that ... there are plently of interesting discussions going on over there. Its just best to avoid/ignore the posts by the mindless zealots.

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Steve G

quote:
Originally posted by Top Cat:
Seeing as you're in Edinburgh, would you like to pop round for tea and biscuits. Perhaps hear the QS Ref versus Mana comparison (once I get it all setup just so) and then have some more tea and biscuits. ANd then you can slag me off. It's okay, go on, give it your best shot!

I'm up for that, although you'd better make sure you lay in a good supply of biscuits etc. just in case.

By the way I've no Mana so I'm not biased. I will admit to hating the look of the QS stuff though.

Drop me an email and let me know when would be convenient.

Regards
Steve

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Steve G

quote:
Originally posted by Vuk Vuksanovic:
Steve.
You may not have noticed yet, but TC has just confessed to having read all the Harry Potter books several times (and seen the movie twice) in another thread. That alone justifies any abuse he may receive.

I've seen the film myself, but only the once and I haven't (yet) read the books. SWMBO has read them however and from her description they do appear to be quite good.

Personally I'd be more concerned with his choice of a plastic record player and amps...

Regards
Steve

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Steve Catterall

Vuk

Like you, I don't claim to know all the details ... I don't even know anything about how he supposedly 'made use of people'.

My point is, that it is for those people to take it up with TC, and that it doesn't help when people like Paul throw allegations (that they know nothing about) around as if they are on a religious crusade.

Apart from anything else, he gives a pretty good confirmation of TC's suspicions, in that he explains why he's decided to stop using Mana, and almost immediately a Mana Soldier is on hand to dish out some personal attacks on his character.

However, I take your point about the Harry Potter.

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Top Cat

Hi Vuk, yeah, I've read HP but I've also read Joyce and Kierkegaard and all manner of more complicated books and enjoyed most of them (but this existentialism just ain't me).

Anyway, about the racks: what are you saying? I offered Stumo a chance to buy Mana and he took me up on it. I sold a 6-tier to IanW's friend Greg and he took me up on it. What's to hide? Sure, at that point in time I didn't broadcast my switch, in the same way that if I sold you a Leica lens I wouldn't need to explain the reasons why - perhaps I had two (as in the case of the IanW rack, or perhaps I simply wanted to sell it to start again from a clean slate (as in the various odds & sods sold to Stumo).

Other than that, what's the big deal?

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Doug Graham

Shouldn't this thread be in the Padded Cell. Doesn't seem constructive or entertaining (well suppose it is for all the wrong reasons). I should have thought that grown ups would have moved on by now.

Paul D, it's none of your business. Why fuel things!

This Forum exists for information exchanges and for people to tell others about their audio experiences. Let's not lose sight of the real "beef".

Later

Doug

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Tony L

quote:
This Forum exists for information exchanges and for people to tell others about their audio experiences. Let's not lose sight of the real "beef".

Absolutely. Lets get back to the QS Ref kicks Mana butt bit!

Tony.

Posted on: 20 December 2001 by Top Cat

So, let me draw everyone's attention back to the original topic: moving to QS Ref.

Benefits: sounds better under my kit than Phase 8 Mana. Can't speak for phases beyond there. Styling (I quite like it, you may hate it). Wooden shelves (for the TT - it doesn't like glass)

Drawbacks: styling (you may hate it, I quite like it), holes in shelves (I ordered non-holy), you have to put up with reams of abuse (see above)

Everything else is moot. I'll post a proper comparitive review once I've got all the bits setup properly (although it will be phase 4 Mana instead of 8, seeing as I've since sold some).

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."