Is it safe to use a CD5 with my AV receiver?
Posted by: Freckles on 14 August 2003
Hello everyone
This is my first post so please be gentle with me. What I would like to know is, whether it is safe to use a Naim CD5 CD player with my AV receiver? I know that many of you here will recoil in horror at the idea of doing this and I'll save you the long and boring story as to why I want to do this, unless anybody is really interested. Anyway, the reason I ask this is because searching through the forum and various reference manuals seems to indicate that Naim only recommend using their own cables as it seems to form an integral part of the components design. Obviously introducing different cables or making modifications to cables might unbalance this. Being that the CD5 has din outputs and my amp phono sockets. I either won't be able to use the supplied cable, will need to modify it, get an adaptor or use another cable entirely. If I was to do this would it in any way cause the CD5 to become unstable and therefore significantly shorten its usefull lifespan or indeed invalidate my warranty? Also if it is safe to use the CD5 what method of connecting it to my receiver would be the best option e.g. supplied Naim cable plus a din to phono adaptor e.t.c. Thanks in advance for your help.
This is my first post so please be gentle with me. What I would like to know is, whether it is safe to use a Naim CD5 CD player with my AV receiver? I know that many of you here will recoil in horror at the idea of doing this and I'll save you the long and boring story as to why I want to do this, unless anybody is really interested. Anyway, the reason I ask this is because searching through the forum and various reference manuals seems to indicate that Naim only recommend using their own cables as it seems to form an integral part of the components design. Obviously introducing different cables or making modifications to cables might unbalance this. Being that the CD5 has din outputs and my amp phono sockets. I either won't be able to use the supplied cable, will need to modify it, get an adaptor or use another cable entirely. If I was to do this would it in any way cause the CD5 to become unstable and therefore significantly shorten its usefull lifespan or indeed invalidate my warranty? Also if it is safe to use the CD5 what method of connecting it to my receiver would be the best option e.g. supplied Naim cable plus a din to phono adaptor e.t.c. Thanks in advance for your help.
Posted on: 14 August 2003 by Frank Abela
The only stability issues are with speaker cables. Your CD5 will work fine into an AV receiver. The standard Naim interconnect is DIN-DIN. If you want, you could have it modified but it would probably be wiser to simply get a new DIN-2phono cable. The closest to the Naim item is Chord Chrysalis. It's inadvisable to use an adaptor. However, if you intend to go down the Naim route with a Naim AV2, then the adaptor could be a suitable stop-gap in the meantime.
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
Posted on: 14 August 2003 by Freckles
Hello everyone
Thanks for all your helpful input. What with this being my first post here, it was really refreshing to receive good advice within a few minutes of posting my problem. Previous problems or questions I've posted at other hi-fi forums never seem to get answered to my satisfaction and the thread usually ends up in a free for all with everybody arguing amongst themselves over petty trivial matters. So well done keep up the good work people.
Andrew,
I will be using a Denon 3802 AV receiver as the amplification for the CD5. I know it's never going to hold a candle in the wind to a CD5 matched with something like a Nait 5 but as AV amps go it's certainly one of the better ones as far as two channel playback is concerned. At the moment I'm using a Denon 2800 MK2 DVD/CD player as my source and partnering it with Mission M74i floorstanders, all connected up with Kimber cable. I'm actually very pleased with the sound of this set up but like all us hi-fi nuts we always want bigger and better. My original intension was to buy a fairly good dedicated CD player to see if I could improve matters even further, so last weekend I went to my local dealer and demoed some players. My original budget was £500 and so I listened to an Arcam CD72T and a Rega Planet. I certainly liked the planet very much and thought it was a very worthwhile improvement over my 2800 Mk2, but the build quality was so flimsy and as for the plastic lid? forget it! Then I saw, felt and heard the CD5 and fell in love with it. I simply must own this CD player! I've had to do a little bit of thinking about incorporating it into my system and what I've decided to do is to have eventually when funds allow two seperate systems. One for AV and the other for standard two channel sound. As I can't afford to buy a complete Naim system in one go I thought that I could do it in stages and reap some of the benefits until funds allow for a further upgrade. i.e. CD first, followed by Nait 5 to drive my main stereo pair, AV amp driving centre, surrounds and subwoofer with the CD5 plugged directly into the Nait for uncompromised CD sound, followed by a flatcap and then finally another set of speakers for the Nait and voila two seperate systems. By the way I used to own a Meridian 200/203 CD player combo, Naim Nait 2 and Epos ES11 speakers. As I'm sure you're only too well aware when you've exprerianced the superb sound and build quality of components like these it's very hard to be impressed with anything less, hence my desire for an all new Naim system.
Thanks for all your helpful input. What with this being my first post here, it was really refreshing to receive good advice within a few minutes of posting my problem. Previous problems or questions I've posted at other hi-fi forums never seem to get answered to my satisfaction and the thread usually ends up in a free for all with everybody arguing amongst themselves over petty trivial matters. So well done keep up the good work people.
Andrew,
I will be using a Denon 3802 AV receiver as the amplification for the CD5. I know it's never going to hold a candle in the wind to a CD5 matched with something like a Nait 5 but as AV amps go it's certainly one of the better ones as far as two channel playback is concerned. At the moment I'm using a Denon 2800 MK2 DVD/CD player as my source and partnering it with Mission M74i floorstanders, all connected up with Kimber cable. I'm actually very pleased with the sound of this set up but like all us hi-fi nuts we always want bigger and better. My original intension was to buy a fairly good dedicated CD player to see if I could improve matters even further, so last weekend I went to my local dealer and demoed some players. My original budget was £500 and so I listened to an Arcam CD72T and a Rega Planet. I certainly liked the planet very much and thought it was a very worthwhile improvement over my 2800 Mk2, but the build quality was so flimsy and as for the plastic lid? forget it! Then I saw, felt and heard the CD5 and fell in love with it. I simply must own this CD player! I've had to do a little bit of thinking about incorporating it into my system and what I've decided to do is to have eventually when funds allow two seperate systems. One for AV and the other for standard two channel sound. As I can't afford to buy a complete Naim system in one go I thought that I could do it in stages and reap some of the benefits until funds allow for a further upgrade. i.e. CD first, followed by Nait 5 to drive my main stereo pair, AV amp driving centre, surrounds and subwoofer with the CD5 plugged directly into the Nait for uncompromised CD sound, followed by a flatcap and then finally another set of speakers for the Nait and voila two seperate systems. By the way I used to own a Meridian 200/203 CD player combo, Naim Nait 2 and Epos ES11 speakers. As I'm sure you're only too well aware when you've exprerianced the superb sound and build quality of components like these it's very hard to be impressed with anything less, hence my desire for an all new Naim system.
Posted on: 14 August 2003 by Freckles
Thanks for the info Andrew
When I buy the CD5 I'll definately get one of these cables. I always feel more comfortable using offical products with equipment especially as the price seems fairly reasonable compared to some exotic designs. My Denon does indeed have 7.1 preamp inputs for external sources. At the moment I've got my DVD player connected to the CD input terminals. I'll try changing it over to the preamp left and right channel inputs and see if it makes any improvement. No mention in the manual of an analogue bypass although there is a function called direct mode which switches off most of the additional AV circuits inside the amp. This makes a very noticable improvement to the two channel sound. I have asked on several other forums as to whether the 7.1 channel inputs are digital free but still haven't received a definative answer. One says the signal is digitally processed the other says it isn't. Oh well the only way is to try it for myself. Cheers mate.
When I buy the CD5 I'll definately get one of these cables. I always feel more comfortable using offical products with equipment especially as the price seems fairly reasonable compared to some exotic designs. My Denon does indeed have 7.1 preamp inputs for external sources. At the moment I've got my DVD player connected to the CD input terminals. I'll try changing it over to the preamp left and right channel inputs and see if it makes any improvement. No mention in the manual of an analogue bypass although there is a function called direct mode which switches off most of the additional AV circuits inside the amp. This makes a very noticable improvement to the two channel sound. I have asked on several other forums as to whether the 7.1 channel inputs are digital free but still haven't received a definative answer. One says the signal is digitally processed the other says it isn't. Oh well the only way is to try it for myself. Cheers mate.
Posted on: 14 August 2003 by joe90
CAUTION!!!!!!
Using a NAIM CD5 with a Japanese receiver make result in the receiver sounding better than it ever has. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
Using a NAIM CD5 with a Japanese receiver make result in the receiver sounding better than it ever has. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
Posted on: 14 August 2003 by Freckles
Not bothered about the CD5 improving the sound, I just love that lovely green illuminated logo on the front!
Posted on: 14 August 2003 by joe90
Now you're getting somewhere...
Posted on: 14 August 2003 by jcc
I'm not sure if this applies to the 3802, but here's some info from the 3803...
The Pure Direct mode lets you use the AVR-3803 as a high sound quality stereo amplifier. A simple key operation on the main unit to select Pure Direct automatically turns off power to the video circuitry and the fluorescent lights also go off to thoroughly minimize adverse influences from these circuits on the audio circuit. During analog audio input, power to the digital circuitry is also turned off. Furthermore, Denon’s AL24 processor for high sound quality has been added to the front 2 channels during digital audio input, enabling the playback of sound with remarkably high transparency.
HTH,
jim
The Pure Direct mode lets you use the AVR-3803 as a high sound quality stereo amplifier. A simple key operation on the main unit to select Pure Direct automatically turns off power to the video circuitry and the fluorescent lights also go off to thoroughly minimize adverse influences from these circuits on the audio circuit. During analog audio input, power to the digital circuitry is also turned off. Furthermore, Denon’s AL24 processor for high sound quality has been added to the front 2 channels during digital audio input, enabling the playback of sound with remarkably high transparency.
HTH,
jim
Posted on: 15 August 2003 by Geoff P
quote:
As I can't afford to buy a complete Naim system in one go I thought that I could do it in stages and reap some of the benefits until funds allow for a further upgrade. i.e. CD first, followed by Nait 5 to drive my main stereo pair, AV amp driving centre, surrounds and subwoofer with the CD5 plugged directly into the Nait for uncompromised CD sound, followed by a flatcap and then finally another set of speakers for the Nait and voila two seperate systems. By the way I used to own a Meridian 200/203 CD player combo, Naim Nait 2 and Epos ES11 speakers. As I'm sure you're only too well aware when you've exprerianced the superb sound and build quality of components like these it's very hard to be impressed with anything less, hence my desire for an all new Naim system.
Freckles
I had an 3802 a while back and used the 7.1 analog channel FRONT inputs to feed the output from a CD player into the receiver.
A bit later I took it a stage further and took the signal from the 7.1 PRE OUT front channels into a NAIM 150 power amp and since as agreed here this is a straight analog process in the 3802 got a big boost in stereo quality.
Now I know a lot of people will start talking about the dangers of driving NAIM power amps with anything other than NAIM pre-amps, however I checked with NAIM first and they told me that the 5 series power amps are OK in this situation so I went ahead.
Result. Success, I got quite a lot of the NAIM sound using the Denon 3802 as a "stereo" pre-amp hooked up as described.
Anyway after all that I just thought I would throw the suggestion at you that you night want to consider buying a 150 and then when funds have recuperated adding a 112, then at a later date still a Flatcap for the CD5 and the 112.
You get the benefit of seperating the pre-amp and power amp which will give you more flexibility AND in my opinion higher quality in the long run than a NAIT 05.
Having said tha the NAIT05 is still pretty bloody good.
Whatever you do try it out on a demo basis first but it worked for me and I appreciated each upgrade.
regards GEOFFP
Posted on: 15 August 2003 by Freckles
JCC
Thanks very much for the info. The 3803 is sligthly different from the 3802 in that it has a pure direct mode which on top of switching off any unecessary digital processing within the amp when running two channel sound also switches off the video circuitry for further increases in sound quality. The 3802 only has a direct mode which does all of the above except it doesn't switch of the video circuitry. From what I can gather there is still some digital processing taking place on the standard inputs such as CD/DVD/TAPE e.t.c. The only way around the digital problem as rightly pointed out by Geoff p and several other people is to connect your source component to the 7.1 main speaker pre-amp inputs. Thereby bypassing all digital processing. I haven't tried this yet to see if there is much improvement but hopefully I'll get some spare time this weekend to have a fiddle.
Geoff P
Thanks very much for pointing out some of the other options available to me. How much improvement would you say adding the 150 power amp made? I know it's hard to pin down specifically, but to me an improvement of around 10% overall would be very worthwhile. Also did you detect much difference when changing from the standard line inputs to the 7.1 pre-amp inputs when using the 3802 power amp section before you got your 150? Cheers mate.
Thanks very much for the info. The 3803 is sligthly different from the 3802 in that it has a pure direct mode which on top of switching off any unecessary digital processing within the amp when running two channel sound also switches off the video circuitry for further increases in sound quality. The 3802 only has a direct mode which does all of the above except it doesn't switch of the video circuitry. From what I can gather there is still some digital processing taking place on the standard inputs such as CD/DVD/TAPE e.t.c. The only way around the digital problem as rightly pointed out by Geoff p and several other people is to connect your source component to the 7.1 main speaker pre-amp inputs. Thereby bypassing all digital processing. I haven't tried this yet to see if there is much improvement but hopefully I'll get some spare time this weekend to have a fiddle.
Geoff P
Thanks very much for pointing out some of the other options available to me. How much improvement would you say adding the 150 power amp made? I know it's hard to pin down specifically, but to me an improvement of around 10% overall would be very worthwhile. Also did you detect much difference when changing from the standard line inputs to the 7.1 pre-amp inputs when using the 3802 power amp section before you got your 150? Cheers mate.
Posted on: 16 August 2003 by Geoff P
quote:
How much improvement would you say adding the 150 power amp made? I know it's hard to pin down specifically, but to me an improvement of around 10% overall would be very worthwhile. Also did you detect much difference when changing from the standard line inputs to the 7.1 pre-amp inputs when using the 3802 power amp section before you got your 150? Cheers mate.
OK here goes.
1) Of course it depends on what speakers you have but the main improvement I heard when I started using the 150 as the power amp was in the emotion of the music. The Bass got tighter and there was more of it. There was definitely more "attack" and detail in the whole range. I did'nt have a NAIM CDP at that time so I had yet to discover the difference that would bring to the system, but even with the SONY CDP I had, the swap from the 3802 to the 150 woke everything up. There was more than 10% improvement in my opinion.
NOTE you have a cable challenge here that can be interesting. First to connect the CDP to 3802 you need a "DIN AT SOURCE to RCA" cable which I guess you already realise. Second to feed the pre-out stereo signal from the 3802 to the 150 you need a "RCA AT SOURCE to DIN" cable. Both of these can be obtained from CHORD thru'your local dealer. But make sure you use them the right way round fro best sound because the Chord cable is directional.
2) Adding the 112 as a substitute for the 3802, by itself, gave a subtle improvement, because [shudder] the Denon is not bad as a pre-amp.
2nd NOTE. You may realise you have the option to plug the pre-outs of the 3802 into the 112 via it's A/V input which can be set for "Unity Gain". This allows you to switch the front main channels of whatever signal sources you have going into the Denon through the 112 into the 150 and control the volume from the Denon. An example of how this is usefull is if you are processing a 5.1 DVD sound track in the 3802 you get to amplify the front channels with the 150 but still control the overall front / back volume, bass management and balance as normal from the 3802.
3) However the later addition of an external power supply gave a significant improvement so the 112 was a good investment.
In my case it was a 2nd/H HiCap, but for you a Flatcap could be a good idea because you can drive the CD5 with it aswell and you will find even quite a bit more improvement from supplying both the 112 and the CD5 at the same time.
4) As far as a difference between the 7.1 analog in, and the normal analog in, there was not much difference to my ears, as long as I set the sound for "Direct" mode with no tone control in the line.
Hope you are still with me.
The overiding recommendation is to demo the CD5 with the 3802 driving the 150 against the CD5 into a 112/150 combo so you can hear where you are going befroe setting off down this route. This probably means carting the 3802 along to youre friendly NAIM dealer. The slight problem you may have is convincing him to come up with the necessary "RCA to DIN" to connect the 3802 to the 150 and getting over his intial shock at the idea of doing it at all. You may have to persevere and als may have to buy the cable up front.
One word of warning if you do decide in favor of this idea, keep a tight grip on youré money during the demo or you will be tempted to by the 112/150 in one go!!
Good luck
GEOFFP
Posted on: 16 August 2003 by Freckles
Hi Geoff
Thanks once again for offering me your advice. I really do appreciate it when someone takes the time and trouble to help me out. Cheers mate.
Anyway, I went to my nearest Naim dealer today to have a demo of some equipment. Fortunately the dealer also stocks Denon and Mission so I didn't have to take any of my own equipment along. We started off by listening to a Denon DVD 2900 DVD/CD player connected to a Denon 3803 amp with Mission M53 speakers. The sound unfortunately wasn't very good at all. It was certainly inferior to my set up at home but at least it gave me a useful benchmark. First up was an Arcam CD73T CD player. I didn't feel this offered much improvement over the 2900, maybe a little smoother and fuller sounding. Next up the Rega Planet, this I thought was better than the Arcam, better rhythm and timing or PRAT as they now say. Not enough of an improvement to spend the £500 to make my 2800 MK2 redundant though. Next up the new Cyrus CD6, now this was an improvement, much better dynamics, focus, detail and PRAT. Finally the king pin of them all, the Naim CD5. This was every bit as good as the Cyrus CD6 but offered, more body to voices and instruments, everything sound more realistic as if real musicians were playing rather than being processed by electronics. The difference was subtle mind. Certainly not night and day. I'd say it was £200 better than the CD6 not the real difference of £600. Obviously the Denon 3803 amp was the limiting factor. This was changed for a Cyrus 6. Changing the amp brought about a bigger change than the difference between any of the CD players. The Cyrus CD6 and Cyrus 6 amp combination with the Mission speakers was magical. The sound was so focused, transparent and detailed with very impressive dynamics. It brought a smile to my face. I thought I could definately live with this. Next up was the CD5 and Nait 5. This was once again every bit as good as the Cyrus combo but with a slightly fuller sound, deeper bass, excellent prat and slightly more realistic sounding. The only problem was after hearing the Naim combo together and the Cyrus combo together, there was no way I could simply buy the CD5 or the Cyrus CD6 by themselves and use them with my Denon 3802 amp not after hearing what they were capable of. In the end I decided on the Cyrus combo because it was nearly half the price and it meant I could afford to buy them both rather than buying the CD5 by itself and having to wait god knows how long before I could afford the Nait 5. So there you have it I'm really happy on the one hand with my much improved system and also a little sad because the Naim has passed me by again.
Thanks once again for offering me your advice. I really do appreciate it when someone takes the time and trouble to help me out. Cheers mate.
Anyway, I went to my nearest Naim dealer today to have a demo of some equipment. Fortunately the dealer also stocks Denon and Mission so I didn't have to take any of my own equipment along. We started off by listening to a Denon DVD 2900 DVD/CD player connected to a Denon 3803 amp with Mission M53 speakers. The sound unfortunately wasn't very good at all. It was certainly inferior to my set up at home but at least it gave me a useful benchmark. First up was an Arcam CD73T CD player. I didn't feel this offered much improvement over the 2900, maybe a little smoother and fuller sounding. Next up the Rega Planet, this I thought was better than the Arcam, better rhythm and timing or PRAT as they now say. Not enough of an improvement to spend the £500 to make my 2800 MK2 redundant though. Next up the new Cyrus CD6, now this was an improvement, much better dynamics, focus, detail and PRAT. Finally the king pin of them all, the Naim CD5. This was every bit as good as the Cyrus CD6 but offered, more body to voices and instruments, everything sound more realistic as if real musicians were playing rather than being processed by electronics. The difference was subtle mind. Certainly not night and day. I'd say it was £200 better than the CD6 not the real difference of £600. Obviously the Denon 3803 amp was the limiting factor. This was changed for a Cyrus 6. Changing the amp brought about a bigger change than the difference between any of the CD players. The Cyrus CD6 and Cyrus 6 amp combination with the Mission speakers was magical. The sound was so focused, transparent and detailed with very impressive dynamics. It brought a smile to my face. I thought I could definately live with this. Next up was the CD5 and Nait 5. This was once again every bit as good as the Cyrus combo but with a slightly fuller sound, deeper bass, excellent prat and slightly more realistic sounding. The only problem was after hearing the Naim combo together and the Cyrus combo together, there was no way I could simply buy the CD5 or the Cyrus CD6 by themselves and use them with my Denon 3802 amp not after hearing what they were capable of. In the end I decided on the Cyrus combo because it was nearly half the price and it meant I could afford to buy them both rather than buying the CD5 by itself and having to wait god knows how long before I could afford the Nait 5. So there you have it I'm really happy on the one hand with my much improved system and also a little sad because the Naim has passed me by again.
Posted on: 17 August 2003 by JohnMak
Hi Freckles,
It's good to see someone who listens for themselves and makes the decision based on what they hear.
Cyrus is damned good sounding and well built gear with a good upgrade path (if you want it) and the price ain't so bad.
Don't fret.
It's good to see someone who listens for themselves and makes the decision based on what they hear.
Cyrus is damned good sounding and well built gear with a good upgrade path (if you want it) and the price ain't so bad.
Don't fret.
Posted on: 17 August 2003 by Freckles
Thanks JohnMak
I'm really pleased with my purchases. I've spent most of the day listening. Even though they aren't run in yet, the Cyrus combo sounds pretty damn fine. I also picked up the latest Cyrus catalouge while I was at the dealers. As you say they really do have a comprehensive upgrade path. My CD6 can be returned and upgraded to the CD8 for little more than the cost between the two items and then a power supply added to further bolster things. The Cyrus 6 amp can be upgraded to the Cyrus 8 and then a power supply and mono blocks added e.t.c. Cyrus really do seem to have a comprehensive range of products and a clearly defined upgrade path ala Naim only for half the price. The final deciding factor for me apart from the price difference was having to buy new Din to phono cables and speaker cable to incorporate the Naim components into my system. I've really spent a lot on interconnects and speaker cable lately and wanted some decent use out of them. I'd still love a Naim system mind. I'll just have to wait until I win the lottery though. Oh well. Cheers mate.
I'm really pleased with my purchases. I've spent most of the day listening. Even though they aren't run in yet, the Cyrus combo sounds pretty damn fine. I also picked up the latest Cyrus catalouge while I was at the dealers. As you say they really do have a comprehensive upgrade path. My CD6 can be returned and upgraded to the CD8 for little more than the cost between the two items and then a power supply added to further bolster things. The Cyrus 6 amp can be upgraded to the Cyrus 8 and then a power supply and mono blocks added e.t.c. Cyrus really do seem to have a comprehensive range of products and a clearly defined upgrade path ala Naim only for half the price. The final deciding factor for me apart from the price difference was having to buy new Din to phono cables and speaker cable to incorporate the Naim components into my system. I've really spent a lot on interconnects and speaker cable lately and wanted some decent use out of them. I'd still love a Naim system mind. I'll just have to wait until I win the lottery though. Oh well. Cheers mate.