Weiss 202 - a few thoughts.

Posted by: james n on 26 July 2010

Ok i though it was time to put fingers to keyboard now that i've had a few days to play with the 202.

My DAC history up until now has been the n-Vi internal DAC, The Lavry DA10 and then the Weiss DAC2. I'd seen a review in Hi-Fi News of the Weiss Minerva (the DAC2 in fancy clothes) which got me interested. A quick chat to Keith at Purite got me a loan of a DAC2. My DA10 went to its new owner (who now has a DAC2) and the DAC 2 took it's place.

The Weiss via optical from the Mac was not that different to the DA10 and I could have quite happily gone on living with the DA10 which to me combined all the virtues of a Naim sounding front end married to the convenience of iTunes. Via Firewre it was a whole different ball game the Weiss clearly better than the DA10. Amarra and Pure music have been icing on an already rather nice cake and up until a few weeks back i'd arrived at a rather fine sounding front end.

Enter the 202. I'd not been too interested in this thinking it was just a minor update of the DAC 2 with the addition of a nice front panel display and remote control. Not much benefit to me i thought. A Google around found some internal shots - the DICE Firwire implementation is the same but from there on - Twin transformers for more isolation of the digital section and a completely new DAC / Analogue stage using the Sabre ES9018 DAC chip. The 202 like the 2 / Minerva keeps the DAC section in a screened 'quiet room' - good to see in a device with a lot of high speed digital noise flying around inside its box. The 202 has two built in, user selectable filter settings, A and B. Filter A has a steeper frequency response than B and more filter settings will be added in future software updates. The other nice feature is the transparency checker which uses the playback of test files to check out whether the playback chain from the test file stored on the computer to the the DAC is bit transparent (of which Amarra and PM are when volume is set at 0dB)

Last year i popped over to Joe Bibb's to have a listen to his DAC2 / Berning / Art Emotion Signature system and we had an enjoyble day listening to his system - its a fine system and it also changed my mind with regard to valves. Like me, Joe had used the DA10 and moved onto the DAC2 so i found we had pretty similar tastes. I know if he's discovered something then its worth giving it a try. When Joe got his 202 and mailed to tell me how good it was i thought i'd better get one and have a listen.

The sound ... if you like the DAC2 then you'll love this. It just takes all the good things of the DAC2 and builds on them. A number of things really stand out on this DAC on familiar music. The sheer clarity for a start - all sorts of minor inflections in a voice are just so clear, cymbals just shimmer and have a very natural sheen and minor instruments way down deep in a mix are clear and easy to follow. I've also noticed that vocals that sometimes could be indistinct are now crystal clear and just sound so real. Close miked Cash (American recordings) or Shelby Lynne sounds superb. Tracks that may have originally have sounded harsh are now clear and detailed - its not a bright sounding DAC. The other thing of note is just how quiet the 202 is - it has an extremely low noise floor which translates to an inky blackness which particularly noticeable when a track is coming to an end and is slowly faded down - musical information is still there even though it can be just a whisper right up until the track stops. It just drags up low level detail i've not heard before.

You can probably tell i'm pretty pleased with my new purchase and if you already have a DAC2 and like the Weiss way of doing things then it's well worth a listen. The DAC2 is still a very fine DAC and with the Fiewire connection to the Mac its a neat plug and play solution.

How does the 202 compate to the Naim DAC ? - to be honest I dont know as i've not heard the Naim DAC for a while now but i'm sure given the level of engineering that's gone into the Naim design its a very fine DAC and in full battle configuration with the 555PS i'm sure there would be little to choose from between the Naim and the Weiss - its down to personal preference / system matching in the end.

Hope that's of interest to some

James

Posted on: 28 July 2010 by js

It can actually be had for less in quantity but would still represent a more costly chip overall though not compared to a seperste powerful processor plus dac etc. With the sabre, you can't isolate sections as with some others though you can isolate some of the dacs from each other. if you buy into the circuit and their processing or noise shaping that is part of every delta/sigma, I guess it doesn't matter.

Posted on: 28 July 2010 by Guido Fawkes

quote:
My only real beef is that many manufacturers of DACs insist, probably as a result of customer requests, to stuff all this into a small enclosure along with a headphone amp,

I agree - a headphone amp that won't drive my Stax ear-speakers is as useful as a sieve to drink wine from.

I also agree 100% with your comments on chip prices - it is not the material costs, but the skill in making the whole thing.

A simple DAC with S/PDIF and BlueTooth interfaces is all we really need.

Posted on: 28 July 2010 by js

Weiss caters to the pro market so I understand the headphone circuit. Lots of these firewire interfaced bits have them for that reason. Stax are uncommon in pro.

Posted on: 28 July 2010 by DHT

ROTF S/pdif or AES/SBU are what we should be getting away from!

Posted on: 28 July 2010 by naimUnT

quote:
Originally posted by Eloise:

What I am saying is that it IS possible that 24bit DAC (the PCM1704) properly implemented can sound better than the (headlined) 32bit (ESS Sabre).

Eloise

I don't disagree with that statement! In fact I mentioned in my earlier thread that I have personally heard a 20-bit DAC sound better than a 24-bit DAC and I made the point that it is not just about the number of bits that is important! Implementation is the key! Does that statment make me sound like I am perpetuating the "more is better" myth?

The reason I mentioned about the 32-bit DAC was my musing of how the Sabre would sound if Naim engineers tweaked it and implemented it with the customary Naim technical know-how!

As for whether Naim had considered the Sabre, this is something only Naim can answer and no amount of conjecture will help!

Back to the basic point and it is about civility! I take grave exception to someone calling me "ill-informed"! This is an open forum where mutual respect should prevail, a place where we can express and share our views without fear of name calling or mud slinging! If you cannot understand this basic premise then I fear you are the one that is ill informed and will need some growing up to accept that there are views and opinions that may not accord with yours!

Posted on: 28 July 2010 by pcstockton

quote:
Originally posted by naimUnT:
I take grave exception to someone calling me "ill-informed"!

Grave exception. Really? Hyperbole anyone? Get over it! Far worse has been said about me and many others.

You need thicker skin in this place. Punches are not pulled and just about everything goes.

It is the only reason I hang around here!

Eloise has NEVER, in my experience, been uncivil, rude, or resorted to naim calling, or personal attacks.

In fact you were the one coming across as a little angry, talking in CAPS etc. You brought up the "ill informed" comment like three times now.

Notice how Eloise did not take the bait? Ignored the escalating tension, and stuck to the discussion?

She (assuming by the handle) has always been VERY helpful, extremely knowledgeable, and a valuable member of the forum. You might be reading into the language a little too much, or perhaps it hit a nerve, or too close to home.... who knows.

Has it been established that your post wasn't in fact ill informed? Good lord.... her comment may simply be a VERY civil way of calling bullshit.

Eloise rocks. But DOES NOT like borderline inappropriate use of sexy pictures

-Patrick

Posted on: 28 July 2010 by js

quote:
Originally posted by naimUnT:
quote:
Originally posted by Eloise:

What I am saying is that it IS possible that 24bit DAC (the PCM1704) properly implemented can sound better than the (headlined) 32bit (ESS Sabre).

Eloise

I don't disagree with that statement! In fact I mentioned in my earlier thread that I have personally heard a 20-bit DAC sound better than a 24-bit DAC and I made the point that it is not just about the number of bits that is important! Implementation is the key! Does that statment make me sound like I am perpetuating the "more is better" myth?

The reason I mentioned about the 32-bit DAC was my musing of how the Sabre would sound if Naim engineers tweaked it and implemented it with the customary Naim technical know-how!

As for whether Naim had considered the Sabre, this is something only Naim can answer and no amount of conjecture will help!

Back to the basic point and it is about civility! I take grave exception to someone calling me "ill-informed"! This is an open forum where mutual respect should prevail, a place where we can express and share our views without fear of name calling or mud slinging! If you cannot understand this basic premise then I fear you are the one that is ill informed and will need some growing up to accept that there are views and opinions that may not accord with yours!

The Sabre wouldn't allow Naim to do things as they have chosen on their DAC.

Posted on: 28 July 2010 by Guido Fawkes

quote:
Originally posted by DHT:
ROTF S/pdif or AES/SBU are what we should be getting away from!

Absolutely not - S/PDIF is the way the Naim DAC is designed to work at its best so I definitely need a converter. I agree would be great if Naim made the external convertor, but as they don't I have to seek a third party USB-S/PDIF or consider the UnitiServe. As you can see I have a problem deciding on the most appropriate USB-S/PDIF for my set-up.

If I had some strange desire to leave S/PDIF behind then I'd have bought the Chord DAC instead of my Naim - for me there were only two choices for a DAC for my system: Naim or Chord. I went for Naim because of the synergy with the rest of my system and am absolutely delighted with it.

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by JYOW

The new Chord DAC is mostly an S/PDIF DAC. The USB implementation is just an afterthought.

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by Eloise

quote:
Originally posted by JYOW:
The new Chord DAC is mostly an S/PDIF DAC. The USB implementation is just an afterthought.

I would actually question that JYOW (though I have no inside knowledge). Assuming you are talking about the new Chordette Peach, then surely it's a development of their Gem DAC which was first and formost a Bluetooth capable device and secondary a USB device. They've now added SPDIF to make it generally more versatile.

Talking of the Chord Gem / Peach, does anyone know if any / how much of the technology from the flagship DAC64 / QBD76 DACs found it's way into the lower end products - i.e. does it have any of the buffering technology and DAC stage implemented as FGPA rather than an "off the shelf" DAC chip. Okay so I've kind of answered my own question here - the Gem has a BB PCM2704 (presumable used as USB to SPDIF) and a Cirrus CS4351.

Eloise

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by JYOW

Eoise,

I meant the QBD76. The Chordette is more for iPhone type use and is not in the same class as the nDAC or the Weiss.

I am quite sure I read that the QBD76 uses garden variety USB implementation, and could only support 24/48 max and has no async mode.

I could be wrong though.

BTW I like Chord products.

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by Eloise

quote:
Originally posted by JYOW:
Eoise,

I meant the QBD76. The Chordette is more for iPhone type use and is not in the same class as the nDAC or the Weiss.

I am quite sure I read that the QBD76 uses garden variety USB implementation, and could only support 24/48 max and has no async mode.

I could be wrong though.

BTW I like Chord products.

Then I think you're right about the QBD76...

Eloise

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by DHT

quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:
quote:
Originally posted by DHT:
ROTF S/pdif or AES/SBU are what we should be getting away from!
Absolutely not - S/PDIF is the way the Naim DAC is designed to work at its best so I definitely need a converter. I agree would be great if Naim made the external convertor, but as they don't I have to seek a third party USB-S/PDIF or consider the UnitiServe. As you can see I have a problem deciding on the most appropriate USB-S/PDIF for my set-up.

If I had some strange desire to leave S/PDIF behind then I'd have bought the Chord DAC instead of my Naim - for me there were only two choices for a DAC for my system: Naim or Chord. I went for Naim because of the synergy with the rest of my system and am absolutely delighted with it.

ROTF s/pdif and aes are inherently flawed, read up on async transfer.

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by js

Some would say Delta/Sigma is inherently flawed. The dig experts here that work on dig systems every day and have degrees in the field say SPdif can be perfect in recovery. It's all relative. Head in sand just closes you to alternatives and an open overview. If async was so perfect, you wouldn't hear cable difs and you absolutely can in an informative setup with proper files. I feel the same of SPdif but others here say they hear no cable difs on the Naim either.

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by DHT

I predict the next Naim dac will have an async transfer protocol,and I predict that when you have it in your shop JS you will be whistling a different tune!

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by pcstockton

Ill take that bet, DHT. $20USD???
-patrick

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by DHT

Your on!
If I should lose will you accept firewire cable as payment!

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by JYOW

Async Firewire even better

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by pcstockton

quote:
Originally posted by JYOW:
Async Firewire even better

Yeah because those are on so many computers these days

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by js

I would never mind it as an option but a good SPdif is way more important. It's not an either or proposition.

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by DHT

Async firewire or async USB is the future.

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by Plinko

quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
quote:
Originally posted by JYOW:
Async Firewire even better

Yeah because those are on so many computers these days

Non issue. If it isn't on your pc, then buy a card. Simple.

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by Guido Fawkes

The BlueTooth APT-X sounds clearer and more precise to me on the Chord - I really like the Chord products - as I said for me it was Naim or Chord when it came to the choice.

I don't think the Chord does hi-def on all its interfaces, it will when there is some hi-res music worth listening to - as it is just a software change.

However, the sound from my Naim DAC/555PS through my system sounds so good though using the hiFace-S/PDIF that I don't think I'll bother reading papers about how other DACs work. If S/PDIF is inherently flawed then so what; Naim has overcome these flaws and produced a great DAC.

If the Weiss DAC is better in any respect then fine (don't know never heard a Weiss product and possibly never will), but personally I don't care - I'm happy that I've bought the best DAC I could for me.

As long as everybody likes what they got we all win.

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by ferenc

quote:
Originally posted by DHT:
Async firewire or async USB is the future.

Hmmmmm...
Practically all solutions based on Dice Jr/Dice Mini and JetPLL boards of TC Applied in the pro converters, are async firewire solutions. To be honest I do not know about any modern (I mean available, not discontinued) firewire solution, which is not async someway or another...

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by pcstockton

quote:
Originally posted by Plinko:
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
quote:
Originally posted by JYOW:
Async Firewire even better

Yeah because those are on so many computers these days

Non issue. If it isn't on your pc, then buy a card. Simple.

For now, sure.... but in a few years Firewire will be FULLY obsolete. Sorry but it is true. Apple is already abandoning it. Everything will be USB3 in short order (once Intel jumps on board with support).

-Patrick