The price of vinyl
Posted by: ECM on 19 July 2006
Hi folks,
Considering that LPs were quite expensive back in the 1960s and 1970s it seems surprising that we can pick up good clean examples of popular rock, jazz and classical discs for under a £1 in charity shops and on ebay (plus P&P). This is of course to do with supply and demand. The most popular LPs sold in very large quantities to the masses, and these same masses quickly went over to compact disc when it arrived. There are therefore large quantities of often rarely played LPs coming out of the woodwork, as people from a certain age clear out their attics or sadly have them cleared by relatives.
A peculiar phenomena here is that the most commonly available LPs are often the best ones to listen to, which is why they were popular in the first place. So, searching out rare and expensive vinyl does not correlate directly with greater listening pleasure. Just because an LP by the 'the clockwork tangerines' in pink picture vinyl in the rare gatefold sleeve costs £50, does not make it a good listen! I have often found this. Having listened to a couple of LPs by a certain artist, I try to track down their lesser known work, only to find that it's not so good, which is why it didn't sell of course.
The question arises? Why collect expensive vinyl? I don't know the answer to that, although hopefully someone will enlighten me. Maybe it is to do with collector's 'completism'.
There seems to be an analogy here with books. A book is not valuable because it is a good read, or even because it is in a beautiful leather binding, it is valuable primarily through rarity. I suspect the same holds with records.
Cheers, ecm
Considering that LPs were quite expensive back in the 1960s and 1970s it seems surprising that we can pick up good clean examples of popular rock, jazz and classical discs for under a £1 in charity shops and on ebay (plus P&P). This is of course to do with supply and demand. The most popular LPs sold in very large quantities to the masses, and these same masses quickly went over to compact disc when it arrived. There are therefore large quantities of often rarely played LPs coming out of the woodwork, as people from a certain age clear out their attics or sadly have them cleared by relatives.
A peculiar phenomena here is that the most commonly available LPs are often the best ones to listen to, which is why they were popular in the first place. So, searching out rare and expensive vinyl does not correlate directly with greater listening pleasure. Just because an LP by the 'the clockwork tangerines' in pink picture vinyl in the rare gatefold sleeve costs £50, does not make it a good listen! I have often found this. Having listened to a couple of LPs by a certain artist, I try to track down their lesser known work, only to find that it's not so good, which is why it didn't sell of course.
The question arises? Why collect expensive vinyl? I don't know the answer to that, although hopefully someone will enlighten me. Maybe it is to do with collector's 'completism'.
There seems to be an analogy here with books. A book is not valuable because it is a good read, or even because it is in a beautiful leather binding, it is valuable primarily through rarity. I suspect the same holds with records.
Cheers, ecm
Hi Woodface,
Yep, I often struggle with flawed logic (must be the philosophy degree!) LOL
I agree with you about good artists who didn't sell in large numbers, and your list shows that nicely.
However, I'm only saying that there isn't a direct link between price and good tracks on an LP, there are other factors influencing price - that's all.
An example - There are two folk LPs that I enjoyed in my youth. One is Pentangle's 'Cruel Sister' and the other Magna Carta's 'Wastie's Orchard'. From memory, I would put these albums in the same ball park, proficient and musical as they are. However, to repurchase them now, I found that 'Cruel Sister' can be had for £5 and 'Wastie's Orchard' is a wopping £30 (both bids on ebay).
Now, the only reason I can see for one being so much more expensive than the other is that it is rarer, and if a collector wants a representative collection of 1960s/70s folk, then they will have to pay to get 'Wastie's Orchard'. My thesis is that rarity is the driver for the price, given that there is any market for the item at all.
That's how it looks to me.
Of course, one thing we can be sure of, and that is the ubiquity of LPs that regularly turn up in charity shops, particularly 'greatest hits' compilations. We are lucky indeed to walk in upon an entire collection of wisely chosen and cherished musophile discs all priced at 50p! It does happen though.
Cheers, ecm
Yep, I often struggle with flawed logic (must be the philosophy degree!) LOL
I agree with you about good artists who didn't sell in large numbers, and your list shows that nicely.
However, I'm only saying that there isn't a direct link between price and good tracks on an LP, there are other factors influencing price - that's all.
An example - There are two folk LPs that I enjoyed in my youth. One is Pentangle's 'Cruel Sister' and the other Magna Carta's 'Wastie's Orchard'. From memory, I would put these albums in the same ball park, proficient and musical as they are. However, to repurchase them now, I found that 'Cruel Sister' can be had for £5 and 'Wastie's Orchard' is a wopping £30 (both bids on ebay).
Now, the only reason I can see for one being so much more expensive than the other is that it is rarer, and if a collector wants a representative collection of 1960s/70s folk, then they will have to pay to get 'Wastie's Orchard'. My thesis is that rarity is the driver for the price, given that there is any market for the item at all.
That's how it looks to me.
Of course, one thing we can be sure of, and that is the ubiquity of LPs that regularly turn up in charity shops, particularly 'greatest hits' compilations. We are lucky indeed to walk in upon an entire collection of wisely chosen and cherished musophile discs all priced at 50p! It does happen though.
Cheers, ecm
I just love it when people mention they are a graduate as if proves some higher worth or lends extra weight to their arguments
I am sure I am about to be corrected,but isn't philosophy more about thought than logic? One thing that's a given is demand and supply; ultimately market forces dictate prices and as a result 'rare' items go down as well as up. A lot of 80's picture discs that were very collectable are now out of favour and can barely be given away. Artists such as Michael Jackson are now less in favour and ultimately popularity is no arbiter of qualty. I tend to think the key axis in music is when you get a combination of critical and commercial success, very rarely does such material disappoint.
I am sure I am about to be corrected,but isn't philosophy more about thought than logic? One thing that's a given is demand and supply; ultimately market forces dictate prices and as a result 'rare' items go down as well as up. A lot of 80's picture discs that were very collectable are now out of favour and can barely be given away. Artists such as Michael Jackson are now less in favour and ultimately popularity is no arbiter of qualty. I tend to think the key axis in music is when you get a combination of critical and commercial success, very rarely does such material disappoint.Hi Woodface,
Ha Ha! That's funny. I mentioned the philosophy degree in irony, but you took it at face value. I was suggesting that a philosophy degree was probably a hindrance in my attempt to have a reasonable conversation about anything, but you didn't get my humble joke. No worries.
I agree with you about supply and demand, and also about critical and commercial success. Miles Davis' 'Kind of Blue' is a good example of this - good and successful. It rarely turns up in charity shops and secondhand copies are often heavily played, another problem with vinyl.
Anyway, it would be a mistake to buy all of Miles' output on the basis on 'Kind of Blue' as many of his later albums were negatively influenced by others IMHO.
I picked up Clapton's 'Ocean Boulevard' the other day and it is top notch, and widely admired. I foolishly followed this with Clapton's 'August' which has the dead hand of Phil Collins upon it - unlistenable to my ears.
Must confess that I've steered clear of Michael Jackson at any price - don't know why.
One blanket policy that has worked for me has been contemporary music on the ECM label - always good. Another has been Jazz on the Pablo label. Good executive control in both cases.
Interesting.
Cheers, Dr ecm.
PS - I am still trying to work this out logically.
Good band + commercial success = wide availablity secondhand and low price.
Good band + limited commercial success = limited availability secondhand and maybe a high price depending on collector's market.
In the book world, when an author gains a reputation, collectors seek out the early first editions, usually small runs.
Does it work the same way in vinyl? Is there a vinyl Harry Potter equivalent?
Ha Ha! That's funny. I mentioned the philosophy degree in irony, but you took it at face value. I was suggesting that a philosophy degree was probably a hindrance in my attempt to have a reasonable conversation about anything, but you didn't get my humble joke. No worries.
I agree with you about supply and demand, and also about critical and commercial success. Miles Davis' 'Kind of Blue' is a good example of this - good and successful. It rarely turns up in charity shops and secondhand copies are often heavily played, another problem with vinyl.
Anyway, it would be a mistake to buy all of Miles' output on the basis on 'Kind of Blue' as many of his later albums were negatively influenced by others IMHO.
I picked up Clapton's 'Ocean Boulevard' the other day and it is top notch, and widely admired. I foolishly followed this with Clapton's 'August' which has the dead hand of Phil Collins upon it - unlistenable to my ears.
Must confess that I've steered clear of Michael Jackson at any price - don't know why.
One blanket policy that has worked for me has been contemporary music on the ECM label - always good. Another has been Jazz on the Pablo label. Good executive control in both cases.
Interesting.
Cheers, Dr ecm.
PS - I am still trying to work this out logically.
Good band + commercial success = wide availablity secondhand and low price.
Good band + limited commercial success = limited availability secondhand and maybe a high price depending on collector's market.
In the book world, when an author gains a reputation, collectors seek out the early first editions, usually small runs.
Does it work the same way in vinyl? Is there a vinyl Harry Potter equivalent?
Thanks JoeH,
That's just what I was trying to get at, maybe I should just have asked - what's rare and why?
This is much the same as the secondhand book world, which I know very well.
As you say, Woodface, when a vinyl album is hard to find and it is something that we want to hear, then it has a value to us - it follows.
Avoiding the 'collecting' angle for the moment, I am finding that certain of my favourite tracks are sounding better on vinyl than they do on CD, epsecially if the vinyl is pretty clean and well produced. This is a nostalgic thing that I'm enjoying at the moment, nothing particularly to do with monetary values.
Good fun.
Cheers, ecm
Woodface, Irony doesn't come over so well in 3D either, at least not when I do it.
That's just what I was trying to get at, maybe I should just have asked - what's rare and why?
This is much the same as the secondhand book world, which I know very well.
As you say, Woodface, when a vinyl album is hard to find and it is something that we want to hear, then it has a value to us - it follows.
Avoiding the 'collecting' angle for the moment, I am finding that certain of my favourite tracks are sounding better on vinyl than they do on CD, epsecially if the vinyl is pretty clean and well produced. This is a nostalgic thing that I'm enjoying at the moment, nothing particularly to do with monetary values.
Good fun.
Cheers, ecm
Woodface, Irony doesn't come over so well in 3D either, at least not when I do it.
Yep.
ecm
ecm