what's all the excitement about Dac's?

A recommendation if you want a simple dac for your computer...thinking of the same for the work + the headphone amp...

Dear Jo [Sharp],

Thatr Asus card looks interesting.

The trouble is that my mother board has the old PCI, rather than PCI Express, slots, so the whole thing goes back into the air if a new mother board and CPU on it becomes necessary ...

I am yet to be convinced that MAC is not the way to go.

No I am not saying that a PC might not be improved to a point where it is better than a MAC, but rather that straight out of the box a MAC certainly works better than your average out of the box PC [Windoze] based machine.

As I am by no means a computer tweaker, then a standard MAC, which I know works more than well enough for me, appeals very much for its plug and play convenience and also a remarkably fine listenable replay quality.

For those who will say that this replay is not perfect, then all I will say is,

"Point me to the replay that is perfect!"

Perfect replay does not exists in any manner - nor never will - so that the compromises, as such, become a question of personal preference in the way that that are chosen and implemented in any given arrangement!

ATB from George

quote:

I cant think of a worse way of listening,track picking,most good albums are recorded to be listened to as an album,how can you get deep into the music by track picking,hate it,for ducks sake.

Each to their own but I do not accept it is necessary to listen through a whole cd to get to (or better appreciate) one or more individual tracks. The argument,perhaps, has more merit for classical works but on the whole I'd rather hear things I like than listen to things I don't in order to get to the music I like.

If I have time to listen to a dozen or so tracks I want them to all be the ones I want to hear.

So HDX or PC plus DAC offers flexibiblty and convenience even if not the ultimate sound quality.

I do not have an HDX and would probably not invest until my CDS3 expires or until the HDX and DAC evolves to equal or better the sound of the CDS3\555ps.

And you can still listen to a whole cd on an HDX or PC\DAC if that's what you prefer!

quote:

Originally posted by James Lehmann:
Out of interest does this process preserve crucial artistic information like gap-length between album tracks and/or gapless playback? iTunes seems to persist in remaining spectacularly ignorant of either - it's one reason I'm hesitating ripping my whole CD collection to iTunes.

I've not noticed any gaps or glitches between tracks using FLAC and the Squeezebox and I have quite a few albums where tracks mix into each other. I think some gap issues are down to how different compressed formats work, in some formats the compressed audio data is stored in frames and if the encoder does not alter the compression ratio so the track ends on a full frame there will be an extra gap at the end of the track.

quote:

Originally posted by pjl:
I am intrigued by the PC or MAC/DAC approach. However I cannot quite see how it is more convenient than a CD player. All ones CD's have firstly to be ripped to the hard disc and catalogued before one can access them. OK, I know on-line data bases take care of much of this, but what if some of your CD's (eg. very obscure ones) are not on the database? This must be a real pain. Then you have to have a monitor switched on all the time in order to view track information. Do people not find this distracting when listening to music? If you use a MacBook, as many seem to, then surely you need to keep getting up to peer at the screen as you navigate through tracks, unless you sit very near to the Mac. Then if you want to use your MacBook elsewhere for some other purpose it has to be disconnected from the Hi-Fi. What if your other half then decides they would like to listen to music on it? What if your hard drive fails - you've lost everything. You are also paying for an enormous amount of functionality that is entirely unconnected with music. Perhaps I'm missing something fundamental here, and if so I'd be happy for someone to put me right. To me it just seems so much simpler to pop a CD in a player and press PLAY.

Peter

At last somebody agree with me - I thought I was alone in this.

quote:

I am not saying that a PC might not be improved to a point where it is better than a MAC

Pretty safe bet though as long as Microsoft dominate the PC software world - run Amiga OS on it and that's a different matter though ....

An OS that uses shared DLLs can never be better than one that gives each application its own memory space. So PCs would have to run something better than Windoze - Linux perhaps, but it is clumsy: Tripos (Amiga OS) is the best I've ever used, but there is no software or support for super dooper sound cards - sometimes you just can't win.

So best to stay with a Mac and add a Naim DAC.

ATB Rotf

Surely you select the music to listen to wiht the aid of the screen ...

Set it off, and when it is finished, either select some more music to continue listening to, or do something else ...

No reason to look at it, or even have the screen on, except during the selection process.

Indeed, one advantage of a laptop like is that the top folds down so that the screen is not seen ...

ATB frm George

Dear George

If you shut the lid, don't laptops go to sleep? My MacBook Pro does - you need to leave the lid open a bit.

ATB Rotf

Dear ROTF,

You might be right about sleeping with the lid down ...

The quality difference between Mac and PC would not matter though, as I shall never be a computer tweaker ...

All I might note is that a MAC sounded rather fine to me. Not perfect as noted above, but certainly good enough!

Perhaps the way things are going, by the time I can afford it then Mac will have an even better version of iTunes than what is going today?

The whole issue of choosing and buying [a suitable Macbook] is probably still more than 12 months off, so things might move on nicely in the interim?

ATB from George

You can use (buy) a small program called sleepless and have the lid closed.
(there is more programs like this out there)

This is also not dangerous since you can do this as standard if you first connect screen, mouse and keyboard to a apple macbook/macbook pro.

Ah - but you don't want a screen while listening - I that's the point.

sleepless sounds interesting - thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by pjl:
I am intrigued by the PC or MAC/DAC approach. However I cannot quite see how it is more convenient than a CD player. All ones CD's have firstly to be ripped to the hard disc and catalogued before one can access them. OK, I know on-line data bases take care of much of this, but what if some of your CD's (eg. very obscure ones) are not on the database? This must be a real pain. Then you have to have a monitor switched on all the time in order to view track information. Do people not find this distracting when listening to music? If you use a MacBook, as many seem to, then surely you need to keep getting up to peer at the screen as you navigate through tracks, unless you sit very near to the Mac. Then if you want to use your MacBook elsewhere for some other purpose it has to be disconnected from the Hi-Fi. What if your other half then decides they would like to listen to music on it? What if your hard drive fails - you've lost everything. You are also paying for an enormous amount of functionality that is entirely unconnected with music. Perhaps I'm missing something fundamental here, and if so I'd be happy for someone to put me right. To me it just seems so much simpler to pop a CD in a player and press PLAY.

Peter

By your post I suspect you did not grow up with computers. For those of us who have, MAC/DAC is far more convenient for many reasons. It's about more than just convenience, one's relationship with music when using a computer is fundamentally different. I think you also have some misconceptions about digital music playback. First of all PC/MAC doesn't really describe the approach. There are many devices that can be used as sources such as Apple TV, Squeezebox, Sonos, etc. This means that things like monitors, connectivity etc are not really issues. I suspect many people who are using MacBooks probably live their lives with that "enormous functionality that is unconnected to music" so they'll be ok. Basically, our lives are already digital, and we want our music playback systems to catch up.

So, for lack of a better term, how is the PC or MAC/DAC approach more convenient? In my case I don't have a CD player. I haven't owned one since 1999. In fact I went through a five year period where circumstances dictated that an iPod was the only sound system I had. As such my CD's have already been ripped to my hard drive over time. It is not as difficult to catalog obscure CDs from friends or local bands as you might expect, and what is available in online databases may surprise you. In addition, part of my music collection is only available as digital files that cannot be found on vinyl or disc. I use an Apple TV, so there is no need for my monitor to be involved in the music playback process and as you've probably heard, an iPhone or iPod Touch makes an incredible remote! Listening to music this way is actually much more engaging than having to hunt/swap CDs. So when the time came that I wanted to get a great sound system, I thought about where my music collection truly is and how I use it. I realized that CD playback is something I haven't done in nearly a decade and I have no desire to return to it. Other half? I have yet to date a woman who is not computer savvy.

Let's talk about convenience based on listening habits. In the days when I used to carry a discman or limited memory MP3 player I often experienced the "Why the hell did I bring this?!" phenomenon, in which the CD I chose that morning is not the one I wanted to listen to when I actually wanted to listen to music. The iPod was a godsend in this regard, as it meant never again being stuck with music I didn't care to listen to at the time. As a result I developed several playlists that represent different moods, feelings, genres and more. These playlists, and the stats that go with them such as play count, rating etc, are as much a part of my music collection as the files themselves. The ability of things like Genius to use that data to help me discover new music is invaluable. Great R&B vocalists from the 70's? Check. Only the good Depeche Mode songs? Check. Something that I love, but haven't listened to in a year? Check. This "ultimate jukebox" relationship with my music is simply impossible to have with a CD player.

As far as the question of "What if your hard drive fails?" Well, what kind of question is that? What if the movie is sold out? What if you lose your job? What if the restaurant's packed? What if your house burns down? What if your girlfriend leaves you? The answer is simple, have a back up! Really, out of all of life's "What if..." questions, this is one of the easy ones to answer.

Hmmm...a backup wife <strokes chin>

quote:

Originally posted by Naijeru:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pjl:
What if your girlfriend leaves you? The answer is simple, have a back up!

Do they have to have the same naim ?

Back-up wife!

Best quotation of 2009, so far!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Jo [Sharp],

Thatr Asus card looks interesting.

The trouble is that my mother board has the old PCI, rather than PCI Express, slots, so the whole thing goes back into the air if a new mother board and CPU on it becomes necessary ...

I am yet to be convinced that MAC is not the way to go.

No I am not saying that a PC might not be improved to a point where it is better than a MAC, but rather that straight out of the box a MAC certainly works better than your average out of the box PC [Windoze] based machine.

dear George,

I haven't compared, but I suspect you may be right re the mac being better out of the box. But very expensive!

However, if you already have a PC ( as carruthers originally asked) then this soundcard may be a good option if it fits the motherboard.

In your case, you would need a complete re-build in order to use this card in your PC...but that still would probably be cheaper than a new Mac i suspect.

Jo

Dear Jo,

I am experimenting [on a PC], and it is not proving easy!

I do knopw that an unaltered Macbook with standard iTunes works well enough for me, though I make no claims about its relative quality compared to CD players or other methods.

What I also know is that such CD file-extraction-engines as EAC are not easy-peasy to use, and I have valiantly failed and deleted the monstrosity from my PC.

My failure with Mediamonkey also provoked a deletion, but I suspect I may be able to make it work.

But in reality, I am sure that in a while the Mac software will improve further to meet the market, and the idea of a one stop shop for something like the price of a Naim entry level CD player, to add to my DAC, will get everything I could possibly ask for.

I don't crave the last word - CD555 or HDX quality - just something in the good mid-band, and the MAC/DAC is certainly already capable of that.

As you say the issue is stumping up the grand plus for a 320 gig 15 inch Macbook Pro, which would be my ideal final solution, allowing all my music to be stored on one portable device. Obviously with an extrenal based back-up ...

The portability of the library, I count as a very significant advantage over any tower case based computer, of whatever pedigree.

For me to take my music [with headphones] on holiday would be priceless!

ATB from George

Thanks to all those who have responded to my post.

Naijeru, yes you are quite right, I didn't grow up with computers! I think in your post you have made a very important and valid point about the relationship we have with music. Music is an important part of the lives of everybody on this forum, but we all have different ways of accommodating it in our lives. To some extent, the technology we choose to use in order to listen to music will depend on our relationship with music - the way in which it fits into our lives. Personally, I hate background music. When I listen to music I sit down and concentrate on just the music, as if I were at a live concert - I don't do anything else at the same time. I have never owned an iPod or other portable music device (OK I did once have a Sony Walkman Pro, but only for home use. Lovely bit of kit - far sexier than the bland slab of metal iPod!). I detest music in the car. You get the picture - to me, music is something that demands my entire concentration. So for me to pop a CD or two into a player during a listening session is no hassle, and I choose what I play on the spur of the moment depending on my mood. No "play lists" for me. For those that fit music into their lives in a different way, eg. listening on the train or in the car en-route to work, grabbing any opportunity at home eg. whilst working or preparing a meal, then I can see that the "computer approach", for want of a better term, has its attractions and is more flexible and able to "mould into" ones life better. For me though, I suspect it would be little or no advantage. For those younger than myself, who did grow up with computers, and whose whole lives revolve in a completely natural way around computer based technology, then I guess it's only natural to adopt this for enjoying music. Maybe all this amounts just to me being old-fashioned and stuck in my ways!

Peter

Nice post, Peter!

Kind of off-topic maybe but I once heard a theory of how the medium by which, for want of a better word, art is communicated artificially constrains that art. For example, an album or CD constrains the length and format of the music that it contains. Sometimes this constraint is used positively to create new things but more often it constrains the art within boundaries.

The "album" that we all cling to so dearly (myself included) is nothing but a constraint on the artist. Why should be have to wait a billion years between Kate Bush "albums" because we have to wait for an "albums" worth of material before anything is released. An album is artificial.

Consider also television and, to an extent, films. Both are mediums by which the work is communicated and both constraining. Television is linear and controlled - you get to see what the broadcasters decide you should see, for example.

Digital media is relatively unconstrained - I would hope that the liberation of the artist from constraints of "albums" will help to produce much more and much different types of music. Moreover with the imminent demise of big-business record companies and their one-sided contracts will this not also help to liberate the artists? Would we, our faithful dedication to the album aside, prefer to buy an "album" from big-business (of which the artist sees pennies) or buy direct from the artist as and when they decide to release a track, a number of related tracks or an album?

Enough already

Just to say that digital music of which DACs are clearly an important part will have repercussions that none of us can yet envisage.

the use of a USB DAC eliminates ALL needs for soundcards, ASIO, mini-toslink adapters.... USB to digi converters etc....

I would suspect that if a USB DAC is employed, it matters not if you use a PC or MAC.

It would then be a personal preference of the player you want to use, or the kind of OS you prefer for other activities if you will NOT dedicate the computer for audio.

I personally LOVE EAC, Foobar and FLAC. So PC it is for me.

USB DAC PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

fun in the bath

Dear Patrick,

I have not seen this written before [about USB completely eliminating a whole raft of complexity], and can only ask why was this not pointed out before?

It is blindingly obvious that the simpler the better ...

Oh well that is a tad awkward for D10 owners though! Probably makes to Mac route the most viable in that case in the medium term ...

Never mind, as life is like that!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
Reasons and Reasons.
I love my Macbook Dac.
Great quality of music replay fun to use/easy to use.
The best £1,460.00 i have ever spent on Audio replay.
When i am Active next month it will sound even better.
You cant wack it.Its like Garlic bread.
Its the future, Embrace it.
Welcome it with open arms and ears.
Its not going away.
Its here to stay and its going to get better and better.

Grab it with both hands and dont make a mess.
Munch

Hi Munch,

Sorry, I'm sure you have been through this before but what source did you have before the Lavry? Perhaps a difficult question but what performance does the Lavry give you? Could you equate it with a Naim CDP? Just looking at your system profile... I assume the Lavry can't be too shabby... A while back I tried a Benchmark DAC1 but it didn't seem to do much for my system and that was then I had a cheap CD player too.

quote:

Originally posted by Harry H. Wombat:

The "album" that we all cling to so dearly (myself included) is nothing but a constraint on the artist. Why should be have to wait a billion years between Kate Bush "albums" because we have to wait for an "albums" worth of material before anything is released. An album is artificial.

Very good point - artist could release just a couple of songs as they were ready. That really is a new concept and by far the most compelling I have ever heard for musical downloads.

ATB Rotf

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
the use of a USB DAC eliminates ALL needs for soundcards, ASIO, mini-toslink adapters.... USB to digi converters etc....

I would suspect that if a USB DAC is employed, it matters not if you use a PC or MAC.

It would then be a personal preference of the player you want to use, or the kind of OS you prefer for other activities if you will NOT dedicate the computer for audio.

I personally LOVE EAC, Foobar and FLAC. So PC it is for me.

USB DAC PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

USB wouldn't eliminate my desire for ASIO or kernel streaming of some sort. Even Asynchronus USB doesn't eliminate the OS mixer without an ASIO type driver. I'm sure USB will be there, one way or another.