analogue or digital radio?
Posted by: jason.g on 09 September 2003
i am thinking of replacing my reliable analogue NAD tuner with a budget digital tuner.what is the general opinion of this "upgrade".
naim 62/90,rega planer 3, nad 4225 tuner, arcam 5+ cd, pioneermj-d707 minidisc, kef q-35 speakers with naim cable.
what was the best thing before sliced bread?
naim 62/90,rega planer 3, nad 4225 tuner, arcam 5+ cd, pioneermj-d707 minidisc, kef q-35 speakers with naim cable.
what was the best thing before sliced bread?
Posted on: 09 September 2003 by JamieWednesday
Mad, mad, mad, mad, mad
Posted on: 09 September 2003 by Geofiz
Keep the analogue tuner in any case.
Posted on: 09 September 2003 by long-time-dead
quote:
what was the best thing before sliced bread?
My guess would be unsliced bread. Do I win a prize ?
As for tuners, buy a digital tuner and use both !!!
Posted on: 09 September 2003 by prowla
A work colleague has just informed me that DAB is great for Radio 3.
Paul Rowlands
Paul Rowlands
Posted on: 09 September 2003 by Derek Wright
Instead of going for DAB, go for either a Sky box or a Freeserve box - the bit rates on are both much higher than that on DABand you can also receive TV pictures - note Classic FM is not on Freeserve (I read somewhere)
Derek
<<Have you checked your PTs today>>
Derek
<<Have you checked your PTs today>>
Posted on: 09 September 2003 by Mr Perceptive
Jason
Firstly, does the area you live in have good DAB reception? Roof mounted aerials are good and cheap. (I live about 60 miles on a Welsh hilltop from my nearest DAB Transmitter and still get a great signal)
I would not recommend a cheap (budget) unit, as IMHO these units can be quite harsh and not match Naim electronics very well. I purcahsed an Arcam DRT10 DAB Tuner when they were first made obsolete. This unit has a slightly 'warmer' sound and makes a very good match for the Naim Amplifier (which can be quite clinical with digital sources). BTW I also use a 62 but with a 140.
The last DRT10 on eBay went for about £425. Arcam obviously have a current model but I've not heard this.
The quality of the DAB Broadcasts depends very much on the station transmitting and the amount of digital bandwidth the programme is allowed. The latter can vary from programme to programme. The BBC stations are amongst the best but JazzFM and ClassicFM are also very good.
The benefits to me are:-
Low background noise, liken it to when you first heard CD, the noise level disappeared.
Range of Stations, here in Mid-Wales, I would be very limited without DAB (especially having moved from Surrey)
As with all digital mediums, there are those that remain with their analogue guns, don't let them put you off, listen for yourself, its your ears and your money.
Mr Perceptive
Firstly, does the area you live in have good DAB reception? Roof mounted aerials are good and cheap. (I live about 60 miles on a Welsh hilltop from my nearest DAB Transmitter and still get a great signal)
I would not recommend a cheap (budget) unit, as IMHO these units can be quite harsh and not match Naim electronics very well. I purcahsed an Arcam DRT10 DAB Tuner when they were first made obsolete. This unit has a slightly 'warmer' sound and makes a very good match for the Naim Amplifier (which can be quite clinical with digital sources). BTW I also use a 62 but with a 140.
The last DRT10 on eBay went for about £425. Arcam obviously have a current model but I've not heard this.
The quality of the DAB Broadcasts depends very much on the station transmitting and the amount of digital bandwidth the programme is allowed. The latter can vary from programme to programme. The BBC stations are amongst the best but JazzFM and ClassicFM are also very good.
The benefits to me are:-
Low background noise, liken it to when you first heard CD, the noise level disappeared.
Range of Stations, here in Mid-Wales, I would be very limited without DAB (especially having moved from Surrey)
As with all digital mediums, there are those that remain with their analogue guns, don't let them put you off, listen for yourself, its your ears and your money.
Mr Perceptive
Posted on: 10 September 2003 by Paul Ranson
I find my Sky Digibox sounds rubbish with the radio stations. OTOH there are loads of them. The NICAM Stereo from the VHS sounds better with TV sound.
Generally unless there are pictures I don't want to listen to the radio. Exceptions for specific programmes of course.
Paul
Generally unless there are pictures I don't want to listen to the radio. Exceptions for specific programmes of course.
Paul
Posted on: 10 September 2003 by John Bailey
I'm using a Videologic DAB tuner in my Naim setup. Radio 3 and Classic FM give the best performance, most of the other stations are unlistenable and often in mono (R4 in the evening for example).
It's a pity that the low bit rate is undermining the performance of what could be a good system as on R3 the quality is certainly very good.
Unless there is a very good reason to change the NAD I would stick with it for the moment perhaps adding DAB as an experiment. If you're expecting great things then I think you will be disappointed.
It's a pity that the low bit rate is undermining the performance of what could be a good system as on R3 the quality is certainly very good.
Unless there is a very good reason to change the NAD I would stick with it for the moment perhaps adding DAB as an experiment. If you're expecting great things then I think you will be disappointed.
Posted on: 10 September 2003 by Mr Perceptive
Its worth noting too that some of the 'budget' tuners don't allow high sampling fequencies so their performance can be limited, even with good broadcasts. Certainly I thought that the first generation Videologic tuners were limited to 128kHz whereas the Aracm is compatible with broadcasts up to 256kHz (I may be wrong through!)
Andrew Dunn, when I said it was like your first CD, I was talking about the background noise level.
And to all you doubters, I bet when CD first appeared you were well engrossed with your 'Vinyl will never die' thoughts, however CD has proved its worth and now there are a number of very compotent players out there (some even dare I say it rivalling Vinyl)
DAB is here to stay and I'm sure over the future years its performance will get better, perhaps by manufacturers like Naim/Meridian/Linn making a suitable Tuner? I'm sure as we've seem with CD vats improvements can be make with clocks, power supplies, DtoA stages, etc
The range of available stations combined with certain level of performance make it an easy winner for me in a remote location.
I would suggest to Jason that he doesn't become first kid on the block, borrow one from a mate, ry it out out and let your ears decide.
Mr Perceptive
Andrew Dunn, when I said it was like your first CD, I was talking about the background noise level.
And to all you doubters, I bet when CD first appeared you were well engrossed with your 'Vinyl will never die' thoughts, however CD has proved its worth and now there are a number of very compotent players out there (some even dare I say it rivalling Vinyl)
DAB is here to stay and I'm sure over the future years its performance will get better, perhaps by manufacturers like Naim/Meridian/Linn making a suitable Tuner? I'm sure as we've seem with CD vats improvements can be make with clocks, power supplies, DtoA stages, etc
The range of available stations combined with certain level of performance make it an easy winner for me in a remote location.
I would suggest to Jason that he doesn't become first kid on the block, borrow one from a mate, ry it out out and let your ears decide.
Mr Perceptive
Posted on: 10 September 2003 by John Bailey
I too think that Dab is here to stay and that ultimately we will all be forced to use it. I'm in favour of DAB if the broadcasts are of good quality but at the moment the emphasis is on quantity but not quality which irks me.
Living in a London flat it makes sense for me to use DAB to get a clean signal with just a simple wire antenna - my NAD 402 is sitting in a cupboard - so I can certainly appreciate the benefits of DAB in these situations.
Incidentally, my Videologic is a fairly early model and receives at 192k with R3 which sounds very good. I seem to remember that when the BBC field trialed DAB years ago their engineers concluded that a bit rate of 256k was required to equal the best that could be received on FM. Can't back this up but I'm sure I did read it somewhere.
Living in a London flat it makes sense for me to use DAB to get a clean signal with just a simple wire antenna - my NAD 402 is sitting in a cupboard - so I can certainly appreciate the benefits of DAB in these situations.
Incidentally, my Videologic is a fairly early model and receives at 192k with R3 which sounds very good. I seem to remember that when the BBC field trialed DAB years ago their engineers concluded that a bit rate of 256k was required to equal the best that could be received on FM. Can't back this up but I'm sure I did read it somewhere.
Posted on: 10 September 2003 by Chris Metcalfe
"it's not too bad if you listen to radio 3 but who does"
Most of this forum, until quite recently.
Most of this forum, until quite recently.
Posted on: 10 September 2003 by domfjbrown
I have a NAD 4225 and a Technics STGT1000 (DAB/FM/MW).
DAB is shit. Simple as that. I got the Technics dirt cheap to replace a Sony FM/MW, and then got the NAD for £12 for a bedroom system.
So the NAD hisses a bit on some stations (worse now it's in Exeter - famed for the lousy rf performance of terrestrial anything) but it still wees all over the DAB quality of BBC stations I was getting while in Reading.
Do yourself a favour and don't bother until you have to - DAB is FAAAAAR worse than earlier CD - on BBC ensembles at least. Gemini (Exeter's local, rubbish station), Virgin et all aren't unlistenable on DAB, but they're not much cop either...
Like others say - Freeview probably sounds better than DAB and is cheaper in real terms, since you get all the TV channels as well
When the music's over turn out the lights
DAB is shit. Simple as that. I got the Technics dirt cheap to replace a Sony FM/MW, and then got the NAD for £12 for a bedroom system.
So the NAD hisses a bit on some stations (worse now it's in Exeter - famed for the lousy rf performance of terrestrial anything) but it still wees all over the DAB quality of BBC stations I was getting while in Reading.
Do yourself a favour and don't bother until you have to - DAB is FAAAAAR worse than earlier CD - on BBC ensembles at least. Gemini (Exeter's local, rubbish station), Virgin et all aren't unlistenable on DAB, but they're not much cop either...
Like others say - Freeview probably sounds better than DAB and is cheaper in real terms, since you get all the TV channels as well
When the music's over turn out the lights
Posted on: 10 September 2003 by jason.g
thanks for all your advice. my dad has just replaced his naim tuner with a £250 dab and wishes he hadn't i think. he is itching for me to swap so he can have the nad but i think i will hold onto it for the time being.i also have sky hooked into a quality cinema system so i will use that also. as for radio 3, i'm quite a way off joining SAGA if you know what i mean. sorry listeners.
what was the best thing before sliced bread?
what was the best thing before sliced bread?
Posted on: 10 September 2003 by throbnorth
Radio 3 = SAGA? Jason, that's really a sad comment, and maybe says more about you than you might wish.
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/
is a very interesting site, the best I've found, & gives the lowdown on the whole sorry state of DAB in the UK [lowest bitrates in the world, BTW]. It really wouldn't matter which high end manufacturer made a tuner, or how much it might cost - the end result would still be the same. I'm only happy that my £250 Videologic has been made a bookend by falling bitrates - if I'd spent £2290 on a TAG, I'd be well pissed off. Currently, the best you can do is use the digital out on a Sky+ box, or a Sky Sony digibox [I think they are the only manufacturer to offer digital out on a standard box, but I might be wrong] feed it through a standalone D/A converter [I use an old Arcam Black Box] and thence to the amplification of your choice. I don't think any Freeview boxes currently have digital out, but again am happy to be corrected. Sky+ does offer all the timer/programming gizmos, and Mr Murdoch has dropped the £10 subscription charge from next month if you take more than two premium channels. At under £200, this might be a good option for many. It's a really good gadget - you perhaps need to see it in action to appreciate why ... it's not a VCR replacement.
Of course, apart from low bitrates, the outrageous compression is what makes so many stations unlistenable. This is especially sad in that DAB was designed to be able to apply compression at the user end if needed [cars etc.] However this feature has been largely ignored, with excruciating results for sensitive eardrums.
In cars and on trannies, I expect the results are great, which is why DAB seems to be such a success. It's just so disappointing that the BBC, who invented the bloody thing, and who used to be guardians of sonic excellence have let us down. I think we don't need to hold our collective breath for any audio gems along the lines of LS3/5A's in the forseeable future.
throb
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/
is a very interesting site, the best I've found, & gives the lowdown on the whole sorry state of DAB in the UK [lowest bitrates in the world, BTW]. It really wouldn't matter which high end manufacturer made a tuner, or how much it might cost - the end result would still be the same. I'm only happy that my £250 Videologic has been made a bookend by falling bitrates - if I'd spent £2290 on a TAG, I'd be well pissed off. Currently, the best you can do is use the digital out on a Sky+ box, or a Sky Sony digibox [I think they are the only manufacturer to offer digital out on a standard box, but I might be wrong] feed it through a standalone D/A converter [I use an old Arcam Black Box] and thence to the amplification of your choice. I don't think any Freeview boxes currently have digital out, but again am happy to be corrected. Sky+ does offer all the timer/programming gizmos, and Mr Murdoch has dropped the £10 subscription charge from next month if you take more than two premium channels. At under £200, this might be a good option for many. It's a really good gadget - you perhaps need to see it in action to appreciate why ... it's not a VCR replacement.
Of course, apart from low bitrates, the outrageous compression is what makes so many stations unlistenable. This is especially sad in that DAB was designed to be able to apply compression at the user end if needed [cars etc.] However this feature has been largely ignored, with excruciating results for sensitive eardrums.
In cars and on trannies, I expect the results are great, which is why DAB seems to be such a success. It's just so disappointing that the BBC, who invented the bloody thing, and who used to be guardians of sonic excellence have let us down. I think we don't need to hold our collective breath for any audio gems along the lines of LS3/5A's in the forseeable future.
throb
Posted on: 10 September 2003 by prowla
domfjbrown: Lived in Reading now moved to Exeter... Hmmm - Met Office perchance?
(I don't work for them, but live in Bracknell.)
Paul Rowlands
(I don't work for them, but live in Bracknell.)
Paul Rowlands
Posted on: 11 September 2003 by Steve C 01
I took the plunge a few weeks ago & bought a Pure (nee Videologic) DRX701ES for around £200. I was interested in comparing the results against the NAT02 I currently have.
With average bitrates of 128kb on most stereo stations the results, as posted above were uniformly average to poor. Jazz FM, Classic FM, Virgin & Capital - operating at 160kb - were noticeable better, although the NAT02 blew them away on every aspect except noise.
I believe the highest bitrate currently available in the UK is 192Kb, which doesn't bode well for future transmission quality.
The other side of the coin/overwhelming benefit is that with stations like The Storm, Planet Rock etc, the music played is far, far, far better than anything played on 99% of R1/R2 & FM commercial stations in general. If only the quality was improved..
Steve C 01
With average bitrates of 128kb on most stereo stations the results, as posted above were uniformly average to poor. Jazz FM, Classic FM, Virgin & Capital - operating at 160kb - were noticeable better, although the NAT02 blew them away on every aspect except noise.
I believe the highest bitrate currently available in the UK is 192Kb, which doesn't bode well for future transmission quality.
The other side of the coin/overwhelming benefit is that with stations like The Storm, Planet Rock etc, the music played is far, far, far better than anything played on 99% of R1/R2 & FM commercial stations in general. If only the quality was improved..
Steve C 01
Posted on: 11 September 2003 by Roy T
Must agree with Steve C 01, I to brought an Evoke-2 three weeks ago and am mightly impressed with the choice of music and spoken word that now floods into my workplace. I am not too impressed with the bit-rate and quality of the sound, I had thought that everything using DAB was going to be at the highest bit rate although I can't recall the exact adsvertising hype I feel a bit cheated.
A good radio that I take from room to room when I want to listen to music, a case of "never mind the quality, feel the width".
Roy T
A good radio that I take from room to room when I want to listen to music, a case of "never mind the quality, feel the width".
Roy T
Posted on: 11 September 2003 by Stuart M
The Nokia and the Pace Twin Digital freeview boxes both have a digital output.
To err is human; to really foul it up requires a computer.
To err is human; to really foul it up requires a computer.
Posted on: 11 September 2003 by domfjbrown
quote:
Originally posted by prowla:
domfjbrown: Lived in Reading now moved to Exeter... Hmmm - Met Office perchance?
(I don't work for them, but live in Bracknell.)
Paul Rowlands
No comment
If I did though I'd still not be able to tell you the weather 
Web sites, me...I used to live in Exeter before getting stuck in Reading though...
When the music's over turn out the lights