Religion in a Scientific Age?
Posted by: droodzilla on 28 July 2007
I thought I'd rescue my post from "the other thread", which - to my mind - is in danger of becoming a fruitless exchange of entrenched opinions. I'm interested in what's salvageable, given that so many of religion's claims have been repudiated by modern science. I think that there is something valuable that we need to preserve, but that this is *not* a commitment to the existence of supernatural entities, or to any of the other "fairy stories" traditionally associated with religion. Rather, it is a way of viewing the one and only world described by modern science - a way of viewing that acknowledges the existence of ineffable experience, and sees value in cultivating it. According to this view, attaining the religious perspective is akin to experiencing a kind of global gestalt switch, which transforms your view of the world, and your place in it. An yway, here's my original post - anyone out there willing to engage with an open mind?
quote:
The dogmatism of many religious believers bothers me, but I also dislike the crassness of strident atheists such as Dawkins and Hitchens. I believe that there is something essential at the core of the great religions, but that all too many believers become entangled in the superficial aspects of their chosen faith.
Rather than attempt a summary of my views from scratch, here's one I prepared earlier for a couple of friends, who had just read Dawkins' book. It's a little abstract, informed, as it is, by the sum total of my philosophical influences, but I hope that it will be of some use to those forum members who haven't already made their minds up.
quote:
My thoughts so far...
All the interesting stuff (from my PoV) is out of the way by the end of the
first chapter, in which Dawkins contrasts Einsteinian "religion"
(E-religion) with the supernatural variety (S-religion).
He will focus on the latter for the rest of the book - fair enough, as this
is what most people see as religion, or adhere to, if they're believers. I
accept that S-religion is untenable, and expect to agree with much of what
he says. There are no supernatural facts.
However, I expect his tone will grate because:
a. he's a rather obnoxious fellow anyway; and
b. arguably, E-religious experiences are the root of S-religion
b. is one of the lines of thought explored by William James in "Varieties of
Religious Experience". Founders of religious sects often have dramatic
E-religious experiences: overwhelming feelings of awe and wonder at the
compexity and scale of the natural order; an inchoate sense of gratitude
that we are here at all to witness it. Often these are culturely mediated
(e.g. visions of the Second Coming); but not always. I think that James
views these as the living root of religion, and I'm inclined to agree. This
is why I have some residual sympathy for S-religion, even though many of its
fruits have fallen a long way from these roots. I certainly admire some of
its more moderate proponents.
The important thing about these experiences, which Dawkins doesn't take into
account is that they are, by their nature, mystical - i.e. they cannot be
adequately described in language, or otherwise conceptualised. I think that
this fact alone (if accepted) ought to make them anomalous in Dawkin's quite
hardcore positivist worldview - I'm sure he would dispute the idea that
there are any such ineffable experiences.
This ties in with Buddhism, which boiled down (i.e. stripping out the
S-religious stuff about reincarnation, etc.) amounts to:
a. It is possible to experience the world as it is in itself, unmediated by
conceptual baggage
b. It is desirable to do so, as it frees us from suffering (caused,
ultimately, by our perception of ourselves as isolated egos)
I'm not claiming to be enlightened - that really would be too much! - but my
experience of meditation (outside of any Buddhist community or organisation,
or any other religious context) supports the above claims.
In sum, religion/faith, stripped to its barest essentials, is the claim that
there is such a thing as ineffable experience, and that it is valuable. I
think this is probably true; I suspect that Dawkins doesn't. There is a
historical link between such experience, and organised religion, but this
gets more tenuous as the level of organisation increases, and the religion
is dumbed down to compete in the meme marketplace.
I doubt that I'll have much of interest to say about the rest of the book,
as this is the critical point, at which Dawkins and I diverge.
Hope that's understandable - and not entirely crazy! It's a fascinating
topic that I've thought hard about, and I'd be interested in some rational
critique!
Posted on: 08 August 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Deane,
At the A-level physics stage I was lucky to be taught by a most inspiring teacher. He was always pulling at the received wisdom! His said of the current Theories in Physics that they were the best guess yet! He then told us all to remember that always, as it seemed likely to him that there would some surprising discoveries in our lifetimes!
So perhaps I learned something valuable apart from getting a respectable A-level in the subject from him. But it does mean that whilst I will not dismiss other people's views, I don't easily share them on occasion! So I completely understand what you are saying about science.
I like the analogy with music, but would even say this much on that: The score defines with reasonable precision the actual sounds of the music - its rhythms, its pitches, its dynamics, and so forth - but does not come close to unlocking the message in it - what the composer had in mind when writing it down freshly! The search for this message - the composer's intention - is beyond the written notes and this is why great music is still performed live, as there is no objective Universal truth, only its effect on individual listeners [and individual performers]. When music chimes with enough people it survives the generations and remains relevant and performed, but it is as true today as it ever was, for example, that the music of old JS Bach still mystifies more people [as a whole] than really love it and have an understand of it in its entirety. Of course there are the popular pieces, which are easily enjoyed [like the Concertos], but a good deal of it is very mysterious indeed. In printed note form, the two styles look rather similar, the difficult and the easy!
The Arts, and music most of all, have the position of being mysterious as they are, or can be completely, abstract without harm or distortion of the intention for the ends of any applied agenda. This is not the case in science or religion. The greatest Art is abstract...
It is Mankind's greatest gift...
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 09 August 2007 by u5227470736789439
In Bali it forbidden to step over musical instruments as it is thought to cut the direct link to their God.
I take a slightly more praticle view. If you trip over the neck of a double bass, it is probable that the instrument will be completely ruined! Nothing of value would survive...
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 09 August 2007 by fidelio
DO NOT lean any of my guitars against the wall on the headstock! or you might get a dose of wagner alternated w/ zztop over a very bad car stereo...
Posted on: 09 August 2007 by Rasher
The title of this thread implies that science supersedes religion, but I'm not entirely convinced that it does. It may run alongside and create issues between the two, but it isn't the same subject; material & spiritual, they're kinda different!
Considering that the worlds main issues since the millennium regard religion, shouldn't this thread be better titled; Science In A Religious Age?
Posted on: 09 August 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:
Originally posted by Beano:
Acad me old Quantum theorist,
I don’t understand all this quantum malarkey, but do remember that science doesn’t deal in absolutes… now I hope you don’t mind a brief diversion from the scientific religious discussion on Yahweh …
Does a particle have a precise position and momentum, or is the reality as uncertain as our perceptions?
A Classical epistemological answer in Latin will do,

wink!
Beano the uncertain reckons it’s a maze without a centre!
Beano me old student of rhetoric as you know it is impossible to make precise simultaneous measurements of the position and momentum of microphysical objects. And yes reality could be said to be as uncertain as our perceptions. So where have you been? You have been very quiet of late?
Posted on: 10 August 2007 by u5227470736789439
quote:
Originally posted by Rasher:
T
...
Considering that the worlds main issues since the millennium regard religion, shouldn't this thread be better titled; Science In A Religious Age?
Dear Rasher,
A pertinent point, but surely religion is about spirituality, charity, and fairness. Aspects I would say have little to do with fundamentalism as it is announcing itself nowadays, where-ever it is to be found.
Fundamentalism and evangelist attitudes are the two most modern and worrying aspects of the current religious revival, but this revival is hardly a mainstream popular phenomen, and it is being allowed to get out of hand because of general apathy, in my view.
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 10 August 2007 by Deane F
Fundamentalism huh?
So, when the government want to know whether they should allow genetically modified foods under regulations, who do they ask?
The Priests?
Do they ask the people - "Hey, it's your choice. Do you want to eat it?"
Gosh no - they ask the scientists. "Is it safe, oh learned scientists who are closest to truth? Please make a pronouncement on this matter so we can be rational. Science has elevated you so that you can speak for us all."
Posted on: 10 August 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Deane,
Especially in the case of food safety, I think, at least in Europe, the scientists [who in this case are working to a US capitalist agenda] have been thoroughly rebutted.
In my view the people are right to take a suspicious view. Once this genei gets out of the box, there is no putting it back.
This rather underlines what I said earlier in the thread, about agendas, whether religious OR scientific. Normal people should retain a big scepticism of agendas of vested [power] interests from whatever quarter, and in Europe they tend to. In the US as in many other places they do not.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 10 August 2007 by acad tsunami
A few interesting articles on the philosophy of science
herePosted on: 10 August 2007 by u5227470736789439
Give us a clue in your own words dear Acad. Link posting serves as a reference to justify a position, but is hardly hardly is interesting if delivered in cold blood like that. I did not look as I have no idea what your point is.
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 10 August 2007 by acad tsunami
Fredrik,
The point is to direct those interested to a few articles on the philosophy of science (as opposed to articles on hard-core science or hard-core philosophy). Obviously. 'Link posting' serves as a way of introducing people to new sources of information. Those who are interested can nose around and maybe they will find something of interest. I don't charge for this service.
Posted on: 10 August 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Acad,
I am glad you din't charge for the service, as in that case I would be bankrupt, and you, very rich!
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 11 August 2007 by acad tsunami
Fredrik,
Perhaps you could post some links to interesting stuff about Bach (unless you think you are the sole authority on the subject)but kindly do so elsewhere as this thread is about religion and science and not about music at all - a point you seem to have ignored for the purposes of hiding the fact you are out of your depth here.
Posted on: 11 August 2007 by droodzilla
I think that Fredrik was picking up on the musical analogy I allude to in a couple of my posts - the idea being that disinterested absorption in art (especially non-representational art, such as music) may provide a model for understanding mystical states of consciousness (why do I feel like putting scare quotes around that phrase?).
I don't think Fredrik is trying to hide the fact that he feels out of his depth on this thread, but surely the fact that he has stuck with it for six pages indicates that he has an honest interest in the questions?
Posted on: 11 August 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Acad,
I am certainly not out of my depth here. [Just because I have no idea what your point is, does not indicate that I am struggling with the Topic!]. Though I think it a reasonable comment to suggest that your own production of that very long post might indicate that you have missed my point entirely. I have yet to see you address one single point I have raised!
My bringing in a consideration of music is in response to what Droodzila had written - something that would be obvious had you read the thread. I suspect your interest in this thread extends just as far as expounding your own view and preconceptions, and not in considering them or considering anyone else's view.
In fact your lack of engagement in any part of this apart from posting quotations at great length, or very short posts that do not address the most recent posts of those you are debating with seems to indicate that it may well be you who is out of your depth in this thread!
For example, without mind body duality, how do you explain the possibility of rebirth? You simply never come back with anything that logically follows. Please just answer that one and I will believe there is someone to debate with behind the words!
Fredrik
Posted on: 11 August 2007 by ianmacd
quote:
...a point you seem to have ignored for the purposes of hiding the fact you are out of your depth here.
Arrogant twat.
Posted on: 11 August 2007 by u5227470736789439
Page turn: Better verdsion follows...
Posted on: 11 August 2007 by u5227470736789439
quote:
Originally posted by ianmacd:
quote:
...a point you seem to have ignored for the purposes of hiding the fact you are out of your depth here.
Arrogant twat.
Dear Ian,
There are times when I find myself curbing my reactions to certain posts, not the least of which was the one containing the phrase you quote. I completely agree with your post, and only moderation prevented me from saying so in so many well chosen words!
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 11 August 2007 by acad tsunami
Fredrik,
If I may quote you from an earlier post
quote:
'I have read your chapter six post, and honestly I don't understand it in any sensible way.
QED
You continued.....
quote:
'To me it speaks of concepts, which are defined in words, ...
As opposed to concepts defined in bananas or root vegetables?
It is for remarks like these and concern for your hair that I do not burden you with replies.
Posted on: 11 August 2007 by droodzilla
Whatever happened to the middle way?
Posted on: 11 August 2007 by u5227470736789439
As I have already said, dear Acad,
I cannot fathom what your point is. It is lost in many thousands of words splitting hairs! That does mean that I struggle with the Topic in hand rather than understanding your point, which is rather an obscure one it seems to me. You have not sought, however, to answer even one of the fundamental points I have made “in your own words.” I suspect my own post at the bottom of the previous page is rather close to the mark, but it seems to me that you feel it is beneath you to actually answer such simple, though fundamental, questions as I have been posing, and once again you have not done so in you most recent post. You prefer to try to dismiss my points by discrediting me, which is at the least lazy from a philosophical point. I conclude that you possibly have a problem expressing yourself, and have to rely on others' words, “in quotation,” to at least show you read things even if you don't understand them well enough to express them yourself adequately and comprehensibly.
Second point. You use quotation to seemingly define concepts such as consciousness, which I maintain is the product of brain activity in the absence of any scientific or medical evidence requiring more complex explanation. All you have to do in reply to that is show the scientific proof that consciousness is anything else, and I am bound to say I shall be impressed. Until you can show consciousness is anything other than brain function, then discussing it as a concept that involves mind/body dualism remains superfluous.
I don’t suppose you will answer the point about mind/body duality even though I mention it again. I don't suppose you will answer the point that there are no supernatural facts. I don't suppose that you will explain why anyone should take any religion seriously that requires faith in supernatural concepts. Once you get to belief in Supernatural beings and ideas, then all religion falls in my view as being more complex than it needs to be as an explanation of what it tries to explain, and I reckon the greatest religious charlatans are the ones who want to cherry pick and select what is to be believed and put commentaries and explanations into the religious writing to explain inconsistency or illiberal aspects that do not fit with the modern world. I can think of not one religion that does not fall down somewhere along the line in this.
I don't see how anyone can suggest that their favoured religion is finer than another one without falling into the trap of assuming personal superiority based on faith in unprovable ideas, which it does not take too much thought to realise is a very dangerous concept, considering the need for contemporary commentaries to explain it to the masses! This can indeed manifest itself in arrogant dismissal of people whose ideas do not match with their own “superior” ideas. You seem to extend this to a point where someone easily says they don’t understand your point is somehow failing to grasp the Topic. The two things are quite separate. I do believe this may lead people to believe that you may indeed be demonstrating a considerable arrogance.
I hope that in answering this you will trouble yourself to write in your own words, without resort to links or quotations, what are the answers to the questions I pose in this post, the most important of which is the question of mind/body dualism.
Fredrik
Posted on: 11 August 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Droo,
The middle way is alive and kicking! Aa I said earlier, my position is based on the evidence as far as it exists. I do not deny the possibility of more evidence becoming known.
I wrote much earlier on that I have and will continue to pray for my Christian friends to the Christian God. I cannot see it doing any harm, and it may do some good. I would not pray for myself, however!
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 11 August 2007 by droodzilla
No worries Fredrik - my question was directed mainly to acad, as I thought that the post of his that started this kerfuffle came across as somewhat dismissive of your efforts to engage with this thread.
Off topic - Amazon are taking their time with Walcha's AoF - was expecting it in the post today, but no dice. Will post my opinion on the music board once it arrives, and I've had a chance to listen to it.
Posted on: 12 August 2007 by Nigel Cavendish
Reincarnation and religious salvation is very much the same thing.
Accept your lot, live a good life (as defined by God, Buddha whatever according to priests or gurus) and you will get your reward in heaven or be reborn into better circumstances.
I can understand the attraction to the ignorant, but why educated people would fall for it is a mystery.
Of course, neither proposition is amenable to proof, which is handy for the faithful.
Posted on: 12 August 2007 by Don Atkinson
The basics:-
There either is a God or there isn't. (ok there might be other options that we haven't yet been able to imagine)
No religion, no myths.
Now you can add religion. For lots of different reasons. You can justify this religoin with all manor of claims and write these claims down in a book. Tell people you've seen God or heard his voice or received his word. You can use this religion to prosper and persecute. Or to engender peace and hope. But you'd do these things anyway with or without religion.
And religion won't change the basics. There either is a God or there isn't.
The Universe is the way it is. (chaotic IMHO)
Science has invented a few numbers (or stolen them from the agricultural bureaucrats of 10,000 years ago), added a few experiments and keeps comming up with new proposals every week as to how the Universe is the way it is (and sometimes, rather stupidly - why the Universe is the way it is!!!) . You can use this science to prosper and persucute. Or to engender peace and hope. But you'd do these things anyway with or without science.
And science won't change the way the Univers works. It might (just) help us with a few short-term predictions on what could happen next. But it won't tell us whether there is a God or there isn't.
Just two of my own basic thoughts that I wanted to share.
Cheers
Don