Religion in a Scientific Age?

Posted by: droodzilla on 28 July 2007

I thought I'd rescue my post from "the other thread", which - to my mind - is in danger of becoming a fruitless exchange of entrenched opinions. I'm interested in what's salvageable, given that so many of religion's claims have been repudiated by modern science. I think that there is something valuable that we need to preserve, but that this is *not* a commitment to the existence of supernatural entities, or to any of the other "fairy stories" traditionally associated with religion. Rather, it is a way of viewing the one and only world described by modern science - a way of viewing that acknowledges the existence of ineffable experience, and sees value in cultivating it. According to this view, attaining the religious perspective is akin to experiencing a kind of global gestalt switch, which transforms your view of the world, and your place in it. An yway, here's my original post - anyone out there willing to engage with an open mind?

quote:
The dogmatism of many religious believers bothers me, but I also dislike the crassness of strident atheists such as Dawkins and Hitchens. I believe that there is something essential at the core of the great religions, but that all too many believers become entangled in the superficial aspects of their chosen faith.

Rather than attempt a summary of my views from scratch, here's one I prepared earlier for a couple of friends, who had just read Dawkins' book. It's a little abstract, informed, as it is, by the sum total of my philosophical influences, but I hope that it will be of some use to those forum members who haven't already made their minds up.


quote:

My thoughts so far...

All the interesting stuff (from my PoV) is out of the way by the end of the
first chapter, in which Dawkins contrasts Einsteinian "religion"
(E-religion) with the supernatural variety (S-religion).

He will focus on the latter for the rest of the book - fair enough, as this
is what most people see as religion, or adhere to, if they're believers. I
accept that S-religion is untenable, and expect to agree with much of what
he says. There are no supernatural facts.

However, I expect his tone will grate because:
a. he's a rather obnoxious fellow anyway; and
b. arguably, E-religious experiences are the root of S-religion

b. is one of the lines of thought explored by William James in "Varieties of
Religious Experience". Founders of religious sects often have dramatic
E-religious experiences: overwhelming feelings of awe and wonder at the
compexity and scale of the natural order; an inchoate sense of gratitude
that we are here at all to witness it. Often these are culturely mediated
(e.g. visions of the Second Coming); but not always. I think that James
views these as the living root of religion, and I'm inclined to agree. This
is why I have some residual sympathy for S-religion, even though many of its
fruits have fallen a long way from these roots. I certainly admire some of
its more moderate proponents.

The important thing about these experiences, which Dawkins doesn't take into
account is that they are, by their nature, mystical - i.e. they cannot be
adequately described in language, or otherwise conceptualised. I think that
this fact alone (if accepted) ought to make them anomalous in Dawkin's quite
hardcore positivist worldview - I'm sure he would dispute the idea that
there are any such ineffable experiences.

This ties in with Buddhism, which boiled down (i.e. stripping out the
S-religious stuff about reincarnation, etc.) amounts to:

a. It is possible to experience the world as it is in itself, unmediated by
conceptual baggage
b. It is desirable to do so, as it frees us from suffering (caused,
ultimately, by our perception of ourselves as isolated egos)

I'm not claiming to be enlightened - that really would be too much! - but my
experience of meditation (outside of any Buddhist community or organisation,
or any other religious context) supports the above claims.

In sum, religion/faith, stripped to its barest essentials, is the claim that
there is such a thing as ineffable experience, and that it is valuable. I
think this is probably true; I suspect that Dawkins doesn't. There is a
historical link between such experience, and organised religion, but this
gets more tenuous as the level of organisation increases, and the religion
is dumbed down to compete in the meme marketplace.

I doubt that I'll have much of interest to say about the rest of the book,
as this is the critical point, at which Dawkins and I diverge.

Hope that's understandable - and not entirely crazy! It's a fascinating
topic that I've thought hard about, and I'd be interested in some rational
critique!

Posted on: 12 August 2007 by acad tsunami
Fredrik,

I could give you a flawless answer - and you may see it as flawless too IF you already knew A, B, C and D etc. but you don't. This much is clear. Therefore I would have to explain A, B, C and D etc. to you first which would would take a good deal of time and effort (I may as well write a whole book). My point in pasting chapter 6 (which I have co-written and therefore the words are partly mine)is to show there is more to this stuff than meets the uninformed eye. There are 10 other chapters which deal with the core issue from 10 different perspective and in doing so we explore the whole terrain. A familiarity with the whole terrain is needed. If you want me to email each chapter to you one by one I feel we could have a meaningful dialogue but not before. If you want to read 30 to 40 other books on this area then you will have read as many as I have. What I am NOT going to do is write a whole book on this ere forum just to satisfy Ned Ludd. One answer leads to another question and that answer leads to yet another and so it goes and pretty soon I shall be doing nothing but. You know this.

You use words and terms like 'soul' 'matter' 'mind/body duality', 'consciousness' and so forth without definition or explanation seemingly oblivious to the deeply problematic way in which these phenomena are generally incorrectly perceived to exist. You also start thinking from many positions which are based on incorrect assumptions. Answering all the points raised in this thread would take an enormous amount of groundwork and I can't be bothered. If you are really interested you can buy the book next year or I will happily mail you a complimentary copy. My enormous contribution to it will be acknowledged.

What do you mean by 'mind/body duality'? What is a 'self'? 'What is a 'soul'? What for that matter is 'matter'?
Posted on: 12 August 2007 by ianmacd
quote:
If you are really interested you can buy the book next year or I will happily mail you a complimentary copy. My enormous contribution to it will be acknowledged.


Please could you send me a copy when it is published?

Twenty eight rolls of toilet paper I bulk purchased recently will run out around the middle of next year so the pages from your book should come in very handy.

Incidentally, speaking of shite, you've made it into a science on this Forum.

Congratulations.
Posted on: 12 August 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:
Originally posted by ianmacd:
[QUOTE]

Twenty eight rolls of toilet paper I bulk purchased recently


No doubt because you are full of it.
Posted on: 12 August 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Acad,

I don't think you read my post, by it hardly matters.

You are going to be in print, so that what you say must be true, even if no one understands it!

Good luck from Fredrik
Posted on: 12 August 2007 by bhazen
(splash...I've jumped into this thread)

I recently saw Christopher Hitchens debate religion vs. atheism or whatnot on TV; one thing that struck me (although I agree with a fair amount of what he argues) is his vehemence; i.e. the very thing that he often criticises his religious opponents for. A militant atheism will get us nowhere, fast, I believe. Science would do well to stick to what it does best, i.e. deal with the facts and hypotheses that the facts suggest; and religion would do well to attend to the spiritual needs of human beings who, IMHO, invented God(s) to deal with the knowledge of our certain mortality. Which is not to suggest that God or suchlike doesn't exist; just that we mainly deal with our own invented images of God, there being no evidence (that I can see) of a signature of the artist (God) on the painting (the Universe).

Cheers,
Bruce

p.s. Although, when I hear Beethoven's best stuff, my agnosticism gets a roughing-up. Or is that just a heartfelt response to a mighty humanistic impulse by a master artist?
Posted on: 13 August 2007 by Deane F
quote:
Originally posted by bhazen:

Although, when I hear Beethoven's best stuff, my agnosticism gets a roughing-up. Or is that just a heartfelt response to a mighty humanistic impulse by a master artist?


No, that's because Beethoven is the work of the Devil. All of the heavenly music was composed before 1800. Razz
Posted on: 13 August 2007 by bhazen
quote:
Originally posted by Deane F:

No, that's because Beethoven is the work of the Devil. All of the heavenly music was composed before 1800. Razz


Generally, I'm inclined to agree with you - I'm a Baroque fan (Handel, Vivaldi, Corelli etc.) usually.Big Grin
Posted on: 13 August 2007 by acad tsunami
Fredrik,

Stop being a twerp - many people understand it including people on this ere forum who are reading it chapter by chapter and passing on valued comments. If you want a bash at chapter one I am happy to oblige. You are not thick just unfamiliar with what is undoubtedly difficult terrain and that ain't a fault is it? I'm unfamiliar with music scores. I can't make head nor tail of em (but I do know my arias from my elbow)

Acad (also a Baroque fan)
Posted on: 13 August 2007 by droodzilla
Acad, you asked a while ago what my Ph.D. was about. The thesis was called "Hope and Understanding: Aspects of a Theory of Rational Enquiry", and here's its summary page:

quote:
The thesis aims to establish two claims that have an important role to play in any theory of rational enquiry:

1. The aim of rational inquiry is understanding; this is achieved to the extent that we end up with an adequate model of the object of our inquiry

2. Rational inquiry presupposes fundamental hopes in the orderliness of the universe, and in our ability to discern that order, which it is reasonable for us to entertain.

Chapter 1 sets the scene by describing how the two main themes - hope and understanding - emerge in Plato's Meno dialogue, and in C. S. Peirce's diffuse writings on the nature of scientific inquiry

Chapter 2 offers a detailed analysis of hope and its role in our inquiries. The chapter aims to answer two questions - what is hope; and when is it reasonable - and to apply those answers to the specific hopes that underpin the possibility of rational inquiry

Chapters 3,4 and 5 are concerned with understanding, the goal of rational inquiry. Chapter 3 makes some preliminary distinctions, and presents an an analysis of dynamic understanding (which occurs at a particular moment in time). The chapter also introduces the concept of a model, and shows how it may be used to shed light on the nature of static understanding (which persists over a period of time)

Chapter 4 presents an argument from analogy: understanding and spatial orientation have many features in common; the best way to account for this is to assume that understanding a domain involves having a map-like representation (i.e. a model) of it.

Finally, chapter 5 argues that current work on the nature of scientific theories and scientific explanation provides further support for the claim that understanding a given domain involves having an adequate model of it.


It's very much a product of the anglo-american school of philosophy, but I did try to push the boundaries a little, and came out with something more wide-ranging and speculative than is common for a Ph.D.

I would offer to e-mail you a copy, but like a buffoon, I lost the only electronic copy I had. I'm seriously considering paying a bureau to retype it in MS Word format.
Posted on: 13 August 2007 by acad tsunami
Hi Droo,

Very interesting. How many words is it? Could you get it scanned using some OCR program thingy?

I thought your thesis may have had something to do with Wittgenstein as you have previously mention the 'Tractatus' (a friend has just got her Ph.D on Wittgenstein and she is blooming pretty too)and the chap whom I am helping with his book is very knowlegable - we had included a chapter on Language and Wittgenstein but we binned it in favour of a chapter on language and metaphor which we thought was more interesting and offers more of a stepping stone to emptiness.
Posted on: 13 August 2007 by fidelio
acad - may your be free of suffering, fear, and want, may you be happy and peaceful, healthy and strong, and may you come to realize that each person (including mick p.) on this forum has been your mother countless times in the infinite course of the cosmos, as you have been their mother. fiddy
Posted on: 13 August 2007 by acad tsunami
Fiddy,

Yeah crikey, get your head round that one. Maybe I dropped MP on his head when he was a baby and I was his mum? I'm the world's worst Buddhist - I freely admit it to my great shame. I did a lot of practice for 2-3 years and that was 12 years ago. I keep meaning to start again but never get round to it. I'm a disgrace. Frown
Posted on: 13 August 2007 by droodzilla
75000 words - OCR is a tad error-prone, and doesn't recognise footnotes as such, so it's plan B if the typing option is too dear.

My Ph.D. was supposed to be about Wittgenstein's discussion of "Seeing As" in part II of "Philosophical Investigations", and how it links with his account of language and rule-following in part I. In the context of the current thread, I would suggest that religious experience involves a kind of global change of aspect, on the part of the subject. Somewhere along the way, I became intrigued with Plato's Meno paradox, and its implications for the possibility of rational inquiry. The rest is history.

I also wrote a couple of essays on metaphors for my MA, and was especially interested in the prevalence of metaphor in religious texts. I suspect that any satisfactory account of religious experince would need to include a discussion of the place of metaphor.

The other Wittgensteinian theme that's relevant to this thread is his attempt to draw the limits of thought in language - most explicitly in the closing remarks of the Tractatus. This, of course, is a Kantian theme too, and I am sure that there are many insights into these issues to be gained from Kant's work. Specifically, I would love to know more about his theory of aesthetic and teleological judgements, as propounded in his third critique, but it is a formidably difficult book to get your head round.

Please could you let me have your friend's phone number - I urgently need to, ummm, talk to her about Wittgenstein Winker
Posted on: 13 August 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:
Originally posted by droodzilla:


[QUOTE] I also wrote a couple of essays on metaphors for my MA, and was especially interested in the prevalence of metaphor in religious texts. I suspect that any satisfactory account of religious experince would need to include a discussion of the place of metaphor.


Yes, I agree. I have not had much to do with the metaphor chapter (other than trying to pull it to pieces in the tradition of Tibetan Buddhist debate) - it is very much the author's chapter and he takes metaphor to some startling conclusions! I will email it to you if you want.

quote:

The other Wittgensteinian theme that's relevant to this thread is his attempt to draw the limits of thought in language - most explicitly in the closing remarks of the Tractatus. This, of course, is a Kantian theme too, and I am sure that there are many insights into these issues to be gained from Kant's work. Specifically, I would love to know more about his theory of aesthetic and teleological judgements, as propounded in his third critique, but it is a formidably difficult book to get your head round.


Yes, I agree with all points. I think old Ludwig and Kant got very close to emptiness.

quote:
Please could you let me have your friend's phone number - I urgently need to, ummm, talk to her about Wittgenstein Winker


No. I saw her first. Razz
Posted on: 17 August 2007 by acad tsunami
Droo,

I think you will find this book hugely interesting:

Hidden Dimensions
The Unification of Physics and Consciousness

B. Alan Wallace

It is being published next month but I have already read a reviewers copy.

The first chapter is available here
Posted on: 17 August 2007 by Deane F
Religion is a scientific age is no different from the way science was in a religious age. ie: science played second fiddle, was scorned a bit by the religionists (the answers to scientific questions were either not very important, or already answered in the Bible etc) and rulers ruled according to religious advice on certain matters.
Posted on: 18 August 2007 by droodzilla
Acad - thanks for the link - had a quick skim, and I'm impressed enough to wish to read more.

Strengths:

appears knowledgeable and readable (the two don't always go together).

linking scientific progress to the redrawing of the line between appearance and reality - a nice approach that I don't recall seeing elsewhere.

the idea that the study of consciousness is ripe for a revolutuion, and that this would involve the use of new methods of inquiry (e.g. some form of meditation) sounds quite persuasive.

the discussion of idols is extremely interesting, and new to me.

interesting discussion of the evolution of ideas - fascinating to think of possible alternative histories of scientific thought.


Weaknesses:

appears to lump all mental phenomena (thoughts, feelings, pains, dreams etc) together under the "subjective" label - many philosophers take a different tack, depending on the mental phenomenon being discussed - David Chalmers limits the "hard problem of consciousness" to the explanation of qualia (i.e. how things seem - the redness of red, the sweetness of sugar) and I'm inclined to think he's right to do so.

assumes too readily that it is obvious what is meant by subjective experience - there are many ingenious philosophical arguments that seek to undermine or challenge the distinction between subjective and objective, and I think the author needs to demonstrate some awareness of these.

the closing paragraphs sound a bit airy-fairy - but I assume that this is addressed in the rest of the book.
Posted on: 18 August 2007 by acad tsunami
Droo,

Fair comments but he does go into greater detail later in the book.
Posted on: 20 August 2007 by fidelio
any of you chappees read the origins of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind, julien jaynes? now there's a topic starter! ARF, ARF ...
Posted on: 21 August 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:
the origins of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind


No I have not read but I may take a peep at it - I saw this on the wikepedia entry for this work:


'....his theoretical postulate that language (and thus thought) expands by the use of metaphors'

I agree with this and I would like to see how he develops this view.