Source first? No - speakers first!

I kind of get the idea where you are coming from with the speakers first,although you can never really get round the GIGO principle. (fact !)

To me,speakers are by far the hardest things to get right,they never seem to sound the same in any two listening envoronments whereas "electronics" on the whole can be made to work in near enough any location.

The title of the post may be somewhat extreme,but I can certainly appreciate where you are coming form.

Regards

Chris

However (and that's a big however), just because speakers vary the most doesn't mean that they should be viewed as the most important component. You can put a $10K speaker on the end of $1K electronics, and it will still sound lacklustre. In contrast, drive $1K speakers with $10K of electronics, and you'll have something really special. At my local Naim deal, we hooked up a CDX/82/Hi/250 to a little $300 Wharfdale speaker; I was astonished at how good this sounded.

To some extent I believe that everyone has a different idea of how a speaker should sound, and this seems to be similar to people's preference for shoes. Everyone has a different idea of the "best" shoe, and everyone's foot is shaped differently. Although all shoes will be worn for walking in some manner, each wearer will prefer one pair over all the others. The "wrong" shoe will be "wrong" for some reason (real or supposed), and it's almost impossible to convince them otherwise.

Of course, if you get yourself a good pair of shoes, it makes the journey that much more comfortable. When you're done, you're in a nice place with a nice pair of shoes, and you're feet didn't hurt along the way. Who knows? Maybe you should pick out your favourite speaker first, then worry about the rest of it later.

It's kind of ironic: When my own audio journey commenced a few years ago, I started out thinking that the speakers were most important. I spent eight months trying to find the "perfect" model, and I ended up with Royd Albions. During that search, I purchased my first Naim gear.

Since that time, I've learned that the source is much more important to real listening pleasure, followed closely by the pre-amp. The power-amp and speakers run a distant third and fourth. In light of this, I've continually upgraded my Naim equipment, but my speakers have remained constant. Now my electronics are about to be CDS2/52/250, and I'm still happy with the Albions.

I'll probably end up with 135s before I starting looking for replacements (if I ever do). Part of my hesitation is that I'm happy with the performance of the Albions, and I'm also afraid to restart that quest. The last time I went searching for speakers it took me eight months. Similarly, it often takes me two months or more to find the "right" pair of shoes. I don't know how long it would take to find something better than the Albions.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

quote:

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Just because I advocate that when you start out on your pursuit of hi-fi heaven you should spend the most on your speakers, does not mean that your ultimate system should be weighted towards the speakers as the most costly component in your system.

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While I have no doubt that you've chosen your system and upgrade path wisely, I think it's best not to think in terms of how much individual components cost when choosing a complete system. What matters is how well the system works, what sort of upgrade path [if any] is under consideration and whether the system as a whole is within budget.
This can, of course, lead to the most expensive part of a well-chosen first system being the speakers - but I can see no reason why it should always be so. In fact, my experience suggests that speakers are usually the least important part of a system.

For example, if a friend came to me and said, "I've got about £2200 to spend on a new CD-based system, which I'll upgrade at some point - what should I get?" I'd suggest that they listened to a CD5 / NAIT 5 with whatever speakers the dealer chose to demonstrate them with, and then look out for a pair of one of various secondhand budget speakers - possibly costing no more than £20 [Plus suitable stands for the components and speakers]. I'd be surprised if a CD5 / NAIT5 / Goodmans Maxim II did not outperform a similarly priced system with a £500+ pair of speakers and any CD player and amplifier within budget - although it's not at all impossible.

Those who think of the source-priority approach as being a logical consequence of the way hi-fi works are, in my view, clinging to a simplistic and fundamentally incorrect view of information in hi-fi. Nevertheless, I have found source-priority to be an excellent rule of thumb when correctly applied - i.e. "Listen to what a source upgrade will do [if you can afford it] before considering upgrades of other components." rather than, "Never upgrade anything but your source until you have the best possible source - if you do upgrade something else first your system will actually sound worse." - which is clearly nonsensical, leading as it does to self-contradiction as soon as what used to be the best available source is dethroned by something better...

--Jeremy

I can sympathise about no changing speakers too often from the point of view of keeping a wife happy - my missus has no idea what goes on with all the black boxes but she'd certainly notice if I changed speakers.

In my bedroom I drive a pair of 150 quid Mission speakers with a 92R/90.3 combination and a very competent used CD player and DAC. This combination cost perhaps 1800 quid to buy and sounds very good, although most would regard it as being very unbalanced. On the other extreme (but costing about the same) I tried my Credos with 600 quids worth of Arcam CD player and amp and that system (also very unbalanced) didn't sound anything like as good.

It would seem to me that modern "budget" speakers are pretty good and do benefit from being used with a better source and amplification which would aid the "source first" approach, but personally I'm more of an advocate of balance in putting together a system.

Regards
Steve

quote:

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Jeremy,You've entirely missed my point.

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Sorry, Steven, but I can't see how I've missed your point - I simply don't accept it. Placing restrictions on component purchases based on the relative prices of components is wholly arbitrary.

--Jeremy

So speakers worked for me.

Regards

Stephen

I think I get Mr Toy's point, I have speakers that are revealling of the source without being at the cutting edge of resolution, B+W CDM1Se. These replaced humble TDL RTL3s, which were really masking what the system could do. No I think I can go much better in source and amplification before getting better speakers. I don't believe I could have gone to better source and amplifier with the TDLs, they were so coloured.

Peter

Listening to my system through headphones gives a very clear indication of the level of detail that is being lost at the speaker end. Were I in a postion to upgrade then speakers would certainly be an item to listen to. That said I would not recommend starting to build a system by buying speakers first

cheers

Nigel

Arthur Bye

Dave Dever, NANA

I'd be careful what you say about speakers and their relative importance in a system. When I ditched my albions in favor of Wilson Benesch ACT 2s the step was like 102/hicap to 52 AND CD3.5 to CDS 2 all in one! That was three months ago and I still hold to this. Now, the reason they sound so damn good is that I have great electronics behind them. If I had upgraded to 20 K speakers with a 3.5/102/hicap I would have been sorely dissapointed. But oh no, Mike...be careful. Those albions (and I adored mine when I had them in my system) are really quite lame in comparisson to a lot of other speakers out there. I too believed that speakers didn't matter, but now i think otherwise. Albions have poor dynamics, a wide dispersive imaging field, dry cardboard bass, and sandpaper highs. And oh, I forgot to mention they have no balls and have a lot of trouble with drum and bass and rock.

At the risk of sounding like yet another pompous canadian, a good source is like a good film script. A good amplifier is a good director. And a pair of good speakers are quality actors. Only when all three are optimized do you get a great film. Certainly some great films have come out of rather weak casts with a good script and director (Bunuel liked working with inexpressive amatures for example, as he felt they were more suited to his vision of a shallow humanity) but these are exceptions.

Dump those boxes!

dave

quote:

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At the risk of sounding like yet another pompous canadian, a good source is like a good film script. A good amplifier is a good director. And a pair of good speakers are quality actors. Only when all three are optimized do you get a great film. Certainly some great films have come out of rather weak casts with a good script and director (Bunuel liked working with inexpressive amatures for example, as he felt they were more suited to his vision of a shallow humanity) but these are exceptions.

Dump those boxes!

---

Sometimes you're reviews are wonderful! I love the analogy, and the conclusion has got me laughing.

Yes, I realize that the Albions have their faults, but I'm not willing to return them just yet. Besides, I can't afford any more big upgrades for at least 6-12 months, and I really want to hear the Albions with 135s, as they were designed to be.

Also, I have a much bigger problem with the room right now than the speakers. Until I solve that, I'm not upgrading any major components.

BTW, I just re-read your write-up on the NAC52 on www.AudioReview.com the other day, and I was quite tickled by that too. You've got a talent for analogy and hyperbole.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

David at the risk of sounding Canadian myself
Passolini, Ken Loach - bad speakers
John Cassavetes or Godard - minimal script

You really need the amp it seems to me

John

extending this thinking, it is also important to ensure that whatever music is extracted my the source is not simply "lost" by components downstream. this would imply that there is really no need to get the best source, only to lose the music that it extracts, for example, in the preamp, or poweramp, or speakers.

following on, you realise that each component must just do enough so that the whole system is balanced, in some sense related to above.

however, there doesn't seem to be any rigorously convincing way of achieving this balance. and in any case, we tend not to stay with one system -- we upgrade -- and so the balance can easily be upset.

one can adopt the approach to get the "best speakers" (most revealing??) so that when u upgrade any component upstream, your speakers will reveal this change clearly. so you could take this approach and iterate with various amps and sources till you are happy.

conversely, you could start with the best source and then select the other components on the basis of which clearly reveals the superiority of the source.

i believe the leaning towards "source first" is based on the fact that its easier to get better sinks than sources -- i.e the performance tolerances on speakers are wider than with sourcses.

the really more fundamental (somewhat theoretical) principle is "a system is only as good as its weakest link". its theoretical because its not very clear, other than anecdotally, how to identify this weakest link. we frequently use price, but we all know how blunt this instrument is.

dealers are supposed to be the font of all knowledge on this issue, given all the experience they have with various kit, but, ultimately, its your money and your choice... i am not really that convinced dealers know a lot more about this specific issue that you or me...

anyway

enjoy

ken

The albions have an excellent midrange that sets them apart from most competitors in that price category. They sounded great with lighter accoustic numbers and had very sweet, pure vocals. They are also very quick. But there was always a sense of great strain in the highs and lows as though teh speaker was never quite comfortable with itself and was trying to do things it couldn't.

I hear you on the $$$$. I want a 500 but will have to wait a year. Fortunately my system is at that point where I listen to it almost incessantly and always with great pleasure. With the albions, about once or twice I got enthralled with a CD and put it on repete for a day or two (My Blood Valentine, Loveless and Radiohead Kid A) But with teh ACT 2s it seems ALL CDs (even crappy circa 1990 ones by bands like Chapterhouse and Ride) get the repete button.

As for my 52 review, hyperbole is a good word. But put yourself in the shoes of a man who, in a dismal town like windsor in the very dead of winter, was just descended upon by the archangelic likes of a 52. Perhaps you too would be listening to the Undertones and leaping around like a fool in the snow.

Dave

Regarding the Albions, I know their faults well, and generally agree with your own observations. However, these faults generally appear only with high volumes, and I rarely listen at that level. With my new room being so small, volume is even less of an issue.

For the rest, it's quite marvelous. I eventually will upgrade my speakers, but that's a year or two down the road.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

If you can make a system that sounds better by putting great speakers behind a weaker source - good luck to you! If you like the way that it sounds, that's what counts. Just don't tell me it's better, and that source-first doesn't really work!

Rico - all your base are belong to us.

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on FRIDAY 22 June 2001 at 06:04.]

you've in fact missed the most important step between numbers one and three (your end-point) - and the point, along with it.

That is, in step 'number two', 90% or more of your punters will make a "corrective" upgrade in an attempt to balance the sound of the system where they've started with a mullet-ed system.

It still isn't better. [shrugs shoulders] Are you looking to join one of Vuk's Boy Bands?

Rico - all your base are belong to us.

PS - I'm sure those JM labs must be worth a listen - I'll keep an ear open for them.

I guess I'm syaing that there are no absolutes in this middle gound of hi fi.

Regards

Stephen