"What about Obama?"

Fred, I stand corrected about the $ figure.

As fas as recent competence of the Clinton administration- that point is debateable. I don't think there is any debate about the current administration.

I hope you are right in your overall assessment of Obama. We will see. This country is in dire need of a "Leader." However, IMO this is not enough to right the ship as they say. More than this is needed to turn our country around and it needs to begin with a return to personal responsibility (both social and financial), family values, education, the need to stop giving our country away to all the free-loaders that have figured out the system, and the list goes on. If we do not then we are headed for financial and moral bankruptcy.

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
...it needs to begin with a return to personal responsibility ...

isn't that the scary part?

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):

More than this is needed to turn our country around and it needs to begin with a return to personal responsibility (both social and financial), family values, education, the need to stop giving our country away to all the free-loaders that have figured out the system, and the list goes on. If we do not then we are headed for financial and moral bankruptcy.

Gary, believe me, I'm not totally down with the Clinton brand, and for sure, some of what we're seeing in terms of economic and foreign policy trouble is due in part to Clinton's policies.

But, like they say, the fish stinks from head down. Obama is not Clinton, neither Bill nor Hillary. If nothing else he is his own man, and despite that he's tapped former Clinton appointees, they answer to him, to his policies and vision. (And, like I said before, who is he gonna appoint, former Reagan and Bush I or II appointees? Or people with no experience in Washington?)

Regarding your prescription for turning things around in the USA, I absolutely agree with the crucial importance of education ... everything, every issue one can think of, stems from education. And I don't mean the bullshit "No Child's Behind Left" BushCo concept, either. Nor the whole "intelligent design," the Earth is 4000 years old, Adam and Eve roamed the Earth with dinosaurs crap. I don't mean to imply that you endorse that, but some of your prescription makes use of similar code ... "family values" (does that include families with two mommies?), "personal responsibility" (often used as a justification to ignore those who truly need help ... are we our brother's keeper or are we not?), and "free-loaders," which I assume refers to those on welfare ... if you do the research, you'll find that the idea that there are millions and millions of otherwise able people who are just scamming off the public dole and they are the ones draining our economy does not hold up at all. To be sure, there are always gonna be those who take advantage, but not nearly as many as one might think. Most of those on assistance would truly love to be self-sufficient as a matter of pride. Add to that, medical and financial assistance for the legitimately infirm, the elderly, etc.

And then there's corporate welfare and corruption, which far outweighs public assistance in dollar amounts ... it's not even close. And where has kowtowing to deregulated, unfettered corporate interests got us now? Who is really more detrimental to our collective well being: the archetypal "welfare mother" or Ken Lay, Jack Abramoff, and Tom DeLay?

The phrase "personal responsibility" has come up recently in conjunction with the failure of the sub-prime mortgage industry. Let's take a closer look ... it used to be that the bankers were supposed to be the experts on finance, the authority, and if they tell you that you don't earn enough to buy that house, they don't give you the mortgage. That's their job, not the consumer's. Of course, an educated consumer is preferable, but aren't the uneducated entitled to protection?

Finally, for decades and decades Americans have been sold "the American Dream" in absolutely every nook and cranny of popular culture, media, etc. ... "everyone can buy a home, everyone can buy luxuries on credit, everyone's entitled as Americans, whether they can afford it or not!" This is the basis of selling the entire credit industry ... they're like crack dealers. Just think of every single Mastercard commercial that tells the viewer that some purchases are so important that it doesn't matter whether or not the consumer actually has the funds. Multiply that one commercial by all the markets on all the TV channels, radio stations, magazine ads, movies, Internet, etc., multiply it by all the hours of the day, by all the days of the year, by all the years of the last few decades, multiply it by all the credit card companies and banks each with their own commercial, multiply it by all the insidiously crafted manipulative imagery modern advertising can muster in every facet of our media and culture, and now ask yourself: who is truly responsible? Not so black and white, is it?

All best,
Fred

Fred,

Totally agree with all of your points except for one and that has to do with the welfare issue. Unfortunately, there are millions who are on welfare that are scamming the system and the list continues to grow everyday and it is costing our country billions of dollars.

From those who are here illegally (both south of the border and elsewhere)who use others identification to get assistance, individuals who have cash businesses who declare less income to qualify, those who have both public and private insurance and use their public cards to avoid paying for their healthcare, those who assets are placed in relatives accounts and then file for public assistance. Individuals who have families and deliberatly don't get married or who file with different addreses so that the wife and kids qualify for PA. Those who are married, but claim no assests when everything is in the husbands name. The list goes on and on, unfortunately.

I know you are aware that the purpose of welfare is for a "parachute" in tough times, but while many have always used this as a way of life, the problem has significantly worsened as more people come here legally and illegally and are "educated" by their forerunners on how to manipulate the system.

I cannot tell you how many individuals I have seen driving expensive cars, getting cosmetic surgery,living in expensive homes. attending private schools all of whom are on federal assistance programs. The statistics are underestimating the problem (whether intentional or not). If you call and report individuals to the agencies they do nothing.

Recent story (true): an individual who lives here and is from a foreign country went home to get married, only after his wife was pregnant did he fly her to the US so that their baby could be a US citizen. They got off the plane went directly to the public aid office and got her a card and went to the local hospital to deliver her baby. This scenario takes place over and over again. Furthermore, the physicians who provide the medical care never get reimbursed after March of the calendar year since funds run out for physician payment after 3 months each year. So I disagree it is a major factor in our societal costs and adds significantly to the other points you mentioned above.

There is all of this talk about illegals and the need for a work force for people to do jobs that americans do not want to do. How about mandatory placement of all recipients of public assistance in the positions that are being performed by the "illegals"; factory workers, cooks, landscapers, etc... and deduct this from their assistanc check/benefits and you'd be surprised how many would disappear from the ranks or would significantly reduce their benefits. This would also reduce or eliminate our "need for the workers" as corporate america and small businesses claim. It's just that they would need to pay the above individuals the minimum wage or higher and also federal taxes, which so many businesses are avoiding with the under the table payments. Futhermoe the income would be re-cycled here into our economy instead of being Western Unioned outside of the US.

As far as family values I was really speaking of "parenting." Unfortuantely for some reason and even in financially stable homes there appears to be no parenting of the kids going on and is a big reason for many teenage problems we see and why so many kids are on ADD or ADHD medication. The kids act out because they have "no parents" and it's easier to give a pill then "raise your kids."

For personal responsibility, I agree with the corporate america marketing and endless credit, but somewhere along the line people have to know whether they can or cannot afford something and act appropriately, it's certainly a combination of factors here. While I agree that we should help those in need, the scope of the problem has gone far beyond helping those who are truly in need.

Basically, I think that we are on the same page. I certainly do not know all of your political views. The US certainly is in a major mess right now and it has been building for at least a decade or more. I'll stop here.

PS: On a lighter note, loved the Pick Steiger Sessions with Ken. Great music. 24 bit is really wonderful when done right!!

quote:

it needs to begin with a return to personal responsibility (both social and financial), family values, education, the need to stop giving our country away to all the free-loaders that have figured out the system, and the list goes on. If we do not then we are headed for financial and moral bankruptcy.

Gary,
Is that what you would term "moderate"? I have seen very similar statements from extreme right-wingers and frankly, I find them quite distasteful. These attitudes usually seem to demonstrate a total denial of social responsibility and a determination not to allow others the same opportunities as oneself or one's forebears.
I too consider my views to be moderate but our definitiona are poles apart.
Ken

I think that the comments from both Gary and Ken highlight an issue - we have been "educated" by the press, educators and pressure groups to never say what we really think or have a non-standard opinion, and anyone who says something which appears different from the "agreed norms" quickly has a label (usually a negative one ) applied, unless they fit into one of the oppressed group categories in which case it is OK, we have no politicians they have been replaced by populists trying to run a country based on opinion polls of how well they were liked 5 minutes ago, and Great Statesmen are a thing of the past
If open and honest debate is forced underground, then resentment rises and backlash occurs, in the UK for example as far as I can see there is no chance for people to openly express and discuss their concerns as everyone has to be Politically Correct to the maximum, and open discussion is very skewed.
Reading the UK press or watching the BBC is now a joke, the UK appears to have become a Country of Rights but no Social Responsibility, and whether we like it or not that allows/encourages systemic abuse by some and the inadvertant ghetto-ising of groups (although some actively seek this state ), this in turn leads to pressure in the system and in society which has to vent somehow

Shouting people down is not debate, it is what kids in the schoolyard do

Interesting though

The following is some of the text of an e-mail my wife received from a mail pal, I have edited out some of the bits which might identify her.

quote:

So my political venting has been confined to my favorite pub over a pint or two and .....something I have NEVER done, I contributed money to Obama's campaign. My job did put me in a front row seat on election day. I was so proud to see so many young people voting, usually for the first time. There was a family from Vietnam voting in their first election since obtaining citizenship.

You must have figured out that my personal beliefs are very liberal, sometimes just a wee bit short of socialism. I LOVE Barack Obama! I have never been as excited as I have been about this election. It DID last TOO long. We could learn a few things from the Brits on that situation. The last political figure that excited me was John F. Kennedy and I was 16 years old when he died. I am a fan of Bill Clinton. I KNOW his personal life was a mess but he did a lot of things right when he was president. Now this president, to my opinion, not only combines the political savy of JFK and Bill Clinton, but also is of excellent moral character. His views on the Iraqi War and health care line up with my own. I see him surrounding himself with advisors who will bring different views to the table, not just a bunch of "yes men". (or women,LOL) That tells me that he does not pretend to have all the answers but will search for the best way to go and lead us there.

I was never a fan of George Bush. I figure it will take us 20 years to get ourselves out of the hole that man dug for us. I know that many of the problems we have were not of his making, but he took problems and made them worse. A good example is the Iraqi War. THAT was his cure for terrorism?

John McCain is an honorable man. He is a hero. However, his ideas are far too conservative for me. He killed his chances when he selected Sarah Palin as his running mate. I had never heard of her before then, and I don't much want to hear of her in the future. She is young, pretty and as dippy as they come. What was he thinking?

Also going on was the election of members of the House of Representatives and the Senate. For example in North Carolina, Senator Elizabeth Dole was defeated. Her husband is Robert Dole who ran for Republican nomination for President several years ago and lost. She conducted a very ugly mud slinging campaign. This seemed to be the case all across the country, so we will have a lot of "new blood" in Washington, DC.

I am so very happy with the results; I am proud once again, to say I am an American and I look forward to the future!! I had heard that all across Europe that folks were cheering for Obama. May you still be cheering a year from now.

She is a semi retired lady of a certain age.

Is it Laura Bush ?

Ken, I find it very intriguing that you find my comments to be consistent with someone on the "far right." I find that most hilarious if you knew my upbringing and background. The funny thing is that my commentaries above are views held not only by myself, but practically everyone that I know. That group of individuals consists of both people who consider themselves independent, republican,or democrat.

After the election was over and they were analyzing the results and included discussion about some of the California and other state propositions which were voted down and who swung the votes to defeat these motions the terminology above was used to describe conservative,moderate, centrist Americans who voted to defeat more "liberal" agendas. The "average" American if you will.

I am someone who believes in the American ideal, whose family came to this country (legally) in the early 20th century to escape persecution, who came with nothing but the clothes on their backs, whose eldest family members who immigrated learned english, albeit with a very thick accent and assimilated. The following generations moved forward and bettered themselves from humble beginnings in america. All are/were educated, self-made individuals with education, culture, self reliance, personal responsibility and family at the core center of what is important to them. The views I expressed above are views which continue to be held and expressed by all of my family members and friend, most of whom are democrats and voted for Obama.

We are all very concerned (friends/family) with what we see has happened over the last 10-15 years with the direction that our country has taken and the total breakdown of things and where are we going from here. Unfortunately, none of us really believes that anyone has the gumption to fix them in either party.

As to my comments in the 2 posts above, because of my occupation I happen to have a lot of first hand knowledge and direct witnessing of the above observations. These are not "right wing" comments in any way shape or form with some hidden agenda, but direct experience with what is going on here.

I am very curious as to your definiton of "moderate"?

quote:

Is it Laura Bush ?

Unlikely.

Barbara Bush then

quote:

Our country is overall conservative, moderate,centrist and is being torn apart by right/left extremists and politicians who continue to sell out to lobbyists and the uberwealthy

Gary,

I realise American and British politics are very different and I'd be really interested to know what left wing extremist policies and agendas you feel are being promoted - or secretly pursued - in mainstream American politics.

Thanks,

David

Gary,
My second attempt at a reply.

What I disliked about the terms you used was that they have been used by politicians in the UK to promote policies which were (IMO) very right-wing.

"Personal responsibility" has meant " Don't bother coming to me for help". Or less tax for the rich, more tax for the poor who by the way, pay a greater proportion of their incomes in tax than the rich. And have less access to tax avoidance schemes.

"Family values" has meant that the rich and powerful keep their indiscretions secret.

"Freeloaders" are anyone less fortunate, whether by reason of illness, disability, unemployment or often, nationality.

As to what constitutes a "moderate", I suspect thatwe all consider ourselves to be moderate and that others are left- or right-wing. A political Theory of Relativity, perhaps. In talking to my former American colleagues I was sometimes calle a "liberal". I took that as a compliment

Regards,
Ken

Ken,


Wow. You read my mind. Brilliant analysis.


We need to be on guard to political double speak especially when it comes from those in high office.



DMC

sorry Ken but anyone who CHOOSES not to work because the extra money above what the state gives does not make it worth their while is a freeloader, and ref your comment on Foreigners, I have been a immigrant in various countries for the last 12 years, where I have paid my taxes, not broken the law, have not expected the street signs to be re-written to include my mother tongue, nor have expected any of the countries to change their laws to accomodate me. I do not feel oppressed or that people are being racist to me, I am in fact a guest in their countries, THEIR countries not mine, their values, their law, their way of doing things and if I don't like it I can always leave.
A politician over in Europe said he was not anti-immigration, he was pro-integration and for that heinous crime he was assassinated by an extremist who did not like the idea of being expected to integrate.
The world is an imperfect place, but living in la-la land does not make it any better.
IMHO

Baz,
Don't feel sorry. Nothing in your post contradicts anything I wrote. You seem to be attacking views I have not stated. But I must take issue with you about "living in la-la land". Do you mean that one should not aspire to a more perfect society?
Regards,
Ken

I am glad we agree

I think aspiration for a better society is absolutely right and proper and I'm all for that. But to deliver it all people need to want it too, which means everybody pull their respective weight for the common good. The folks who don't want to do this should not receive the fruits of everybody elses labour, but if pointing out the non-contributers/leeches is not allowed because it is not P/C then the society will continue to wallow along.

Ken, in the US these are the core values upon which our society has been built and IMO held by the majority of Americans. These have somehow been lost/destroyed (deliberately I feel by the politicians, judges, and media)in the last 10-20 years. Certainly what I see going on here has no relationship to how I was raised by my family. In no way were my terms meant to go anywhere near where you have defined them for the UK.

Just one issue as Barrie touched upon this above. My partners and I employ many spanish speaking individuals (mexican-american). All of these people and their families are second generation americans. All of them are bilingual, but english is their first language and this is what their kids are taught. They love the US and feel very fortunate that their parents brought them here to live and they are all believe that america is their home. They are all still very culturally involved and proud of their heritage, but america and its priorities and dreams and goals are theirs. The same way my family was and continues to be. Everyone of them and their families is against illegal immigration and any sort of amnesty for those of their own culture or any other that have come here illegally and who do not wish to come here and become tax paying, law abiding citizens, learn the language, and integrate the same way that they have. This is just one issue, but he only ones who are in favor of iilegal immigration are those here illegally, the politicans who want votes, corporations/small businesses who want to hire cheap labor and avoid paying fare wages, taxes, work comp premiums, and the gov't of Mexico who has exported many of their problems here. While the gov't would like you to believe that these individuals are paying huge sums of income tax into the system. The truth is far different. The majority work as laborers/cooks in small business and are paid less than minimum wage and are paid under the table--so no taxes whatsoever, insurance, or any other benefits. They use our hospitals for all of their medical care for free, many obtain illegal IDs to get public aid, drive illegally without insurance and then have children with other illegals who become citizens who are further dependents on our system. Not to mention the huge amounts of money sent south which leaves the US altogether.

quote:

Originally posted by baz100:
I am glad we agree

I think aspiration for a better society is absolutely right and proper and I'm all for that. But to deliver it all people need to want it too, which means everybody pull their respective weight for the common good. The folks who don't want to do this should not receive the fruits of everybody elses labour, but if pointing out the non-contributers/leeches is not allowed because it is not P/C then the society will continue to wallow along.

absolutely correct. BTW this is a centrist, moderate, common sense view.

quote:

These have somehow been lost/destroyed (deliberately I feel by the politicians, judges, and media)in the last 10-20 years.

No. You are all for personal responsibility, but when we've lost our "values", it's someone elses (ie politicians) fault. This makes no sense.


DMC

Chaps

Thousands of thick headed Americans borrowed ludicrous amounts of money on sub prime mortgages and have triggered a world wide recession. Thanks a lot for that. Do you learn mathematics over there. Only a moron borrows more than what the house is worth.

If you had any sense of decency your would send us compensation, it is costing us UK taxpayers a fortune to help correct the mess you lot have created.

Now you seem to delight in inflicting us with a President who is full of rhetoric and precious little else. This is ruining my morale.

You really should just keep a low profile, you are straining our "special relationship" like never before. Keep your waffle restricted to American sites, it may be depressing for you but its just as bad for us and we have done nothing wrong and have to live with your mistakes.

Regards

Mick

Mick

Welcome to the rapture that is unfettered deregulation.

"Don't make enough money to service the loan? No problem, we'll lend you double! Just sign on the line!"

Stupid borrowers? You bet! Tell me Mick, why do you only look at one side of the equation? No rage for the lenders? No rage for the big brains that bought junk securities looking for a big old pile of something for nothing?

By the way, our President is your buddy George W Bush. Mr Obama does not have any legal power for nearly two months.

Happy Thanksgiving!

DCT

Mick,
I don't think that people living beyond their means is just an American disease, the same is true both in the UK and other countries. As for borrowing and re-mortgaging more than a house is really worth, how do you imagine many UK residents funded their house purchases in Spain ? they re-mortgaged their UK house.
People chose to be lulled into a false sense of security regarding house values, and rather than buying to live in as a home there seemed to be a view that they were a source of income. The UK already had a ticking economic time-bomb created by naivety/greed (corporate and personal), media hype, government spin and unfettered borrowing/lending

As Mr Micaber said

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

or as my mum used to say - " you make your bed, you lie in it"

or as they say today - Personal Responsability

Many innocent people will get hurt in this economic fall-out, but denying the basic truths of why it is happening does not change that and will only lead to its being repeated. However, in reference to Davids point I think hanging a few fat-cats out to dry would at least make us feel better and may deter irresponsible Corporate behaviour in the future
IMHO
Barrie

Oh dear micks off again broken record time. It's such a shame when capitalism fucks itself, and as for democracy, it was so much better when one's betters ?? looked after things, should never given the oiks and especially the women the vote etc etc.