treble purity

Or the stand naim feel is the best available - Fraim.

My Stands:

CDS1, 52, CDPS, S-Naxo, Supercaps on Solid Steel, 135s and Armageddon on a no-name, LP12 on a wallshelf. SBLs on wooden floor with Linn Skeeds.

But I don't think that it has to do with the stands, because of the Kans...

- Jun

Hey, please don't discuss about stands here! I need help with the initial issue!!

- Jun

What does 'treble purity' mean? I don't understand how 'harsher' can also be 'purer'.

At the risk of getting a bit Jimmy try listening to your SBLs for a few minutes with the treble amps disconnected. IME the effect of the tweeters is counter-intuitive to what we may casually describe as 'treble' or 'bass'.

Paul

How on earth can each of you who have posted automatically relate 'treble purity' to a stand change is beyond belief.

I'm with Paul - I'm not at all clear on what you mean by 'treble purity'.

To me it means somethiong like 'absence of spurious sound' or 'absence of added vibrations'. Obviously, for me, something added is worse than something subtracted, as far as reproduced sound goes.

For us to be helpful, we need to know what you're writing about.

Regards.

Phil

James

I was only having a bit of a laugh on the back of Dozy's mana flag waving.

quote:

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My post was trying to be helpful. I don't think I can be any more help so will shut up.

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dozy: Please, don't shut up. I take your advice serious. I was also wondering if Mana could help under the SBLs, but I cannot find a dealer who will do a home-demo for me...

"treble-purity": On the Kans it sounded a little bit harsh and flat, compared to SBLs; but I guess it's because I play the SBLs active with four 135s... Still the Kans did the trebles very clean, I don't know how to explain... but for example, hihats sounded more natural to me with the Kans than with the SBLs.

- Jun

quote:

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Originally posted by Jun Keller:

"treble-purity": On the Kans it sounded a little bit harsh and flat, compared to SBLs; but I guess it's because I play the SBLs active with four 135s... Still the Kans did the trebles very clean, I don't know how to explain... but for example, hihats sounded more natural to me with the Kans than with the SBLs.

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It could be that you just happen to prefer speakers that are coloured with a forward upper-mid & treble.

My personal view is that having speakers with a flat frequency response isn't necessarily a good thing and instead you should pick speakers with a colouration that suits you.

Regards
Steve

You could turn down the treble on your crossover.

Or change to the Kans and buy a NAP500 with the proceeds.

I think Kans are great, but they're not that great. I suspect you simply don't like your system very much. Either because it isn't working properly, or because it doesn't suit you, which means that investing more cash in more Naim kit isn't going to be productive.

I would carry out a temporary simplification. Remove two Supercaps, the SNAXO and a pair of 135s. Install the Kans (or perhaps a new pair of a good but cheap two way stand mounter, your dealer should have something sitting about) and live with the results for a month. See whether your enjoyment of music is affected.

Paul

From my experience stand choice & set up are crucial for treble purity, get it wrong & it sounds like a mistracking stylus.

Bob

I like very much the way SBLs play voices; it sounds very natural and I don't want to miss that.

I never tried to adjust the XO because I saw that the adjusting devices have no markers and also they seem to be in slightly different positions for 'flat'. But do you think I should raise the trebles in the S-Naxo?

Also, I will soon have my CDS1 upgraded to CDS2; I did a demo with the dealers CDS2 and it was a totally other world as described in "CDS2 vs CDS1". The CDS2 was so much better that I totally forgot about the trebles during these 3 days with the dealers CDS2...

- Jun

- Now its the turn of the cable guy.

Jun, have you ever tried safe alternatives to NACA5? Might be worth a try - DNM costs the same and is safe with Naim.

Alex

I think SBLs have many good points (I owned a pair for 5-6 years), but IMHO treble purity is not one of them.

David

I would get your dealer to come in and set the system up, both speaker positioning and crossover levels.

The people recommending stands and cables are liable to recommend fixing a persistent headache with a lobotomy rather than treating the causal constipation with a dietary change.

A system like yours should sound fantastic with NACA5, with the SBLs on their standard feet and with the amps piled up on the floor and plugged into a standard distribution block.

Paul

quote:

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Originally posted by Paul Ranson:
The people recommending stands and cables are liable to recommend fixing a persistent headache with a lobotomy rather than treating the causal constipation with a dietary change.

A system like yours should sound fantastic with NACA5, with the SBLs on their standard feet and with the amps piled up on the floor and plugged into a standard distribution block.

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Paul,

thanks, nice intro for me...

We did this once, to a system that was not performing up to spec.

Removed all the kit off some horrid Sound Organisation metal stands and dumped them on the floor (carpet on concrete).

Sound got much cleaner. Lost it's "shouty" edge. You could say it increased the purity.

Owner of said kit got rid of the SO and bought some (almost) non-ferrous stands instead (Fraim actually, but others work the same trick).

Any stand should work better than having the kit sitting on the floor, else it's a waste of space. Sadly you cannot take this for granted.

Putting my LP12 anywhere near my system also induces this horrible effect. I therefore suspect this is purely a ferrous effect.

I find that this imbalance in the sound really gets in the way of the musicality of the system, too.

cheers, Martin

"I would carry out a temporary simplification. Remove two Supercaps, the SNAXO and a pair of 135s. Install the Kans (or perhaps a new pair of a good but cheap two way stand mounter, your dealer should have something sitting about) and live with the results for a month. See whether your enjoyment of music is affected."

This is some of the best advice I have ever read uttered on this forum.

I am a huge fan of simplifying and seeing where it takes you. As others may have noticed, I'm also a huge fan of Naim's lower end gear, particularly because it gives up NONE of the more expensive gear's ability to make music, and it compatible with many real world recordings, an attribute the more epensive gear doesn't always have.

I suggest putting all but a pair of 135's, your cd player, a supercap and your pre-amp in the closet for a month. Then, run your system into SBL's or your Kans and see how you feel after a month. Take care in dressing your cables (but don't go overboard.

Just try it and see what you think.

Judd

Thanks very much for your advice!

CDS1/72/Supercap/2*135s/Kans: I tried this setup for one day and I already missed the active SBL setup. I was very relieved when I had the SBLs back...

I will try the following steps:

1.) Wait for my CDS2 and see if it's any better
3.) S-Naxo settings
2.) Improve Stands (Fraim, Hutter, Mana...)
4.) If nothing helps, I will live with the Kan-setup for one month

- Jun

try the simplified passive setup woth sbl's.

Judd

IMHO the way the treble sounds or a speaker works is largely is a function of the room.

None of you have asked Jun what type of room he has specifically the relationship between the wide dispersion SBL tweets and the side walls.

Jun, the first thing I would do is check the mounting of the SBL tweeter boxes and general set-up of the SBL's.

The try changing the distance between the speakers (closer and you get more bass, but it also affects the top end too). Also try and move the speakers away from corners or if taht isn't possible treat the corner.

Is the problem the same on the LP12? (I have owned a Troika and a CDS1 before and although they have many strengths I would say a CDS2 and a Arkiv2 are much more refined in the treble)

A debate about stands and cables is completely missing the point here, as are measures like disconnecting the treble unit on of the LP12 - hey, Paul, I've just done that and it sounds awfully dull. If you think the SBL mid/bass is like an Epos (essentially full range with a tweeter added for fun) you're mistaken.

Try and tweak the setup Jun - my guess is taht will be your solution.

regards

Dev

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Is the problem the same on the LP12?

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Dev B, thanks for your advice! - I have to explain that I am really fastidiously because I am playing the violin in an Orchestra every day so I know exactly how each instrument sounds. This Orchestra is playing in an Opera house, so I also know how voices sound in reality... Since my parents both are pianists, they have 3 very nice Steinway concert grands at home... etc etc

I must say that I am very satisfied with my system the way it does the presentation of violins, pianos and voices! The sound is very free, natural and relaxed, but also gripping; it never falls into separated spheres, always sounds totally complete. The music can directly touch and move me.

Only hihats sound a little bit like a dirty stylus: more like "F" than like "S", if I exaggerate... I guess it's very difficult to record hihats really clean. Also triangle sounds perfectly real...

On the LP12 I enjoy music so much that I always forgot about the trebles (same thing with CDS2...)

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the first thing I would do is check the mounting of the SBL tweeter boxes

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I think I can check this by myself, but I don't know what is important!

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None of you have asked Jun what type of room he has specifically the relationship between the wide dispersion SBL tweets and the side walls.

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SBLs 10cm from the Ytong-made back wall; between SBLs I have a 178cm space with a wooden doubledoor; sidewalls are more than 140cm from SBLs. Wooden parquetry floor, partial covered with carpet. Very high room, about 4 x 5.5meters; SBLs on the 5,5meter-wall.

- Jun

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as are measures like disconnecting the treble unit on of the LP12 - hey, Paul, I've just done that and it sounds awfully dull.

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I wouldn't suggest using a system that way. But it gives an insight into what a tweeter brings to the party. The way the sounds that one doesn't associate with 'treble' require the tweeter to sound right.

The motivation was to get a better consensus about what 'treble purity' in Jun's terms means.

You will note that I suggested getting the dealer in to set the system up, which starts with speaker positions and crossover adjustments.

But I think it is most likely that Jun is in need of some hifi-psychology realignment. To move towards a half-full view from the half-empty.

Paul