Which Ring cycle to get - Solti or Keilberth?
Posted by: Rubio on 12 February 2007
Now, I'm ready to get more into Wagner, as I'm now listening to Solti's Walkure on Decca which I find really nice! So, now I will plunge out for a Ring cycle, and I wonder if I should get the classic Solti set or the recently released, critically hailed Kleiberth Ring on Testament. Has anybody here had the chance to compare these sets and can give any descriptions? And what about the Krauss set?
Posted on: 12 February 2007 by Tam
Dear Rubio,
(a word of warning, those who read the Wagner thread on pfm a few months back, may find some of what follows familiar.)
There is no short answer to this (and you could do a lot worse than have a read through this thread). However, that only contains part of the story as it has my glowing review of Keilberth's Siegfried but not my rather poorer one of his Rheingold. Overall, and I have read comments from others that support me in this. Sadly I don't seem to have posted my Rheingold thoughts here (even though I'm sure I wrote them) or on Pink Fish and the only chunk I can find is this:
If sound quality is important, that does rule out many great live recordings from the 50s (however, these mono era does contain many of the most satisfying musically - for me at least). The Krauss Ring already mentioned is fantastic, quite brisk, but it doesn't feel rushed in the way Keilberth does. I think his Siefried is the finest on disc. However the sound is very poor (not quite the awful of constant 'drop out' and the like one has with Furtwangler at La Scala in 1950 but not that good either), frequently it is horribly tinny. However, 3 years better, Knappertsbusch, again at Bayreuth (like Krauss and Keilberth) is in much finer sound (and among the best mono I've heard). However, Kna's conducting isn't for all, I find the slowness brings out a remarkable beauty in the works, others will doubtless find it dull. It also suffers from an electronic machine to do the anvils in Rheingold which sounds very, well, electronic.
Moving into the stereo era and the studio, Solti is to my ears (and many others') hard to match. However, there is a sizeable body of opinion that doesn't get on with what he does with the score. The singing, especially from Hotter, while fine, is not what it was in the 50s Bayreuth issues. Still, every Ring is a compromise and Solti is the only one who combines very good sound with good singing. It is, perhaps, overproduced, though that doesn't bother me, and its emphasis of the orchestral parts (which perhaps earns it some of its dislike) is for me one of its strengths.
Bohm's Bayreuth effort (from the late 60s) ought to be a winner. It has the best sound out of Bayreuth yet, it has liveness on its side, it has Windgassen as Siegfried and it has Nilsson as Brunnhilde (on finer form than they were for Solti). Unfortunately, it also has Theo Adam as Wotan and he is not Hans Hotter, which is probably the reason why the only opera of the cycle I really love if Gotterdammerung. It is also not quite as live as some of the 50s issues (there are some very noticeable edits, between the last two scenes of the final opera, for example).
Levine has his fans, but I am not one of them. To go slowly in Wagner one needs to bring something very special, to my ears Kna does, Levine does not and I just find his reading terribly dull. He has some fine singers (Jerusalem is one of the best Siegfrieds of recent years and Morris is a fine Wotan) but it has its weak links too (Behrens is woefully underpowered as Brunnhilde). In the DVD things are worse. The acting (Morris, Jerusalem and one or two others excepted) is awful - when Behrens awakes in act 3 of Siegfried she is almost comical. Of course, poor acting wouldn't matter if the music and singing were fine enough..... Often it is the direction that is at fault: having Hunding, Siegmund and Sieglinde just sit in a circle for about half an hour in act 1 of Walkure when none of them can act (or sing that remarkably) on an empty stage, it just plain daft. The dragon is Siegfried is dreadful (unlike most productions lack of money wasn't the problem - however, they seem to have spent fortune to come up with something out of a 50s b-movie called something like 'the blob'). Assuming the Boulez DVDs are all up to the standard set by Rheingold, I think I will part company with Levine.
Barenboim, again at Bayreuth, has many things going for him (chief among them the extraordinary Mime of Graham Clark). Yet he suffers from his regular problem of trying to be Furtwangler and not quite managing it.
For the ultimate in sonic quality though, one probably has to look to Haitink, in the studio with the Bavarian radio symphony orchestra. This set has a lot going for it: in technical terms it is to Solti what Solti is to the 50s Bayreuth Rings, the orchestra is first rate and Haitink's reading is magical, bringing remarkable freshness to the score. There is some great singing, Jerusalem on duty as Siegfried again and Morris as Wotan what is more there is the wonderful Alberich of Theo Adam (who is much finer in this role than he was a Wotan). The set is now out fairly cheaply on EMI (albeit without librettos). However, only the Rheingold can carry a strong recommendation because the set also has a crippling flaw: the Brunnhilde of Eva Marton. Overpowered with too much vibrato (which delivers a sound soothingly akin to a police siren). At least with Behrens and her like one can ignore and concentrate on the good things, that isn't a possibility here and it is very difficult to find a satisfactory volume. All of which is a great shame, as there is a lot to love about the set.
Of course, what I'm really waiting for is a recording from Donald Runnicles, who has been extremely impressive in the Wagner I have heard him in, perhaps with Christine Brewer as Brunnhilde......
However, there are probably plenty of people who would say some, or even all is nonsense so the best option is to get yourself to your local classical cd shop (in the unlikely event that you have a good one near you) and have a listen to some samples. You say you are enjoying the Solti - if so, you should like the rest. I would say is to own Solti coupled with either Kna or Krauss from Bayreuth (with possibly one of the Furtwanglers thrown in for good measure).
regards, Tam
(a word of warning, those who read the Wagner thread on pfm a few months back, may find some of what follows familiar.)
There is no short answer to this (and you could do a lot worse than have a read through this thread). However, that only contains part of the story as it has my glowing review of Keilberth's Siegfried but not my rather poorer one of his Rheingold. Overall, and I have read comments from others that support me in this. Sadly I don't seem to have posted my Rheingold thoughts here (even though I'm sure I wrote them) or on Pink Fish and the only chunk I can find is this:
quote:The Keilberth has been getting rave reviews and in theory it offers the best of all worlds - stereo sound and 50s Bayreuth singers. Sadly, I think the conspiracy theory that it hasn't been released for 50 years because Culshaw(he who produced the Solti Ring) didn't like live recordings is not the whole truth as it doesn't sound nearly as good as it ought to. The problems in Siegfried are fairly subtle (there is some nasty clipping in the loudest singing - for example when Siegfried reforges the sword or in the close of act III), but these issues are more than outweighed by the set's plus points (Hans Hotter never caught so well, the best account of the Wotan/Mime scene I have heard, Fafner's awakening, and many more), yet I still find myself enjoying Krauss more. Things are worse with Rheingold. The sound is frequently very harsh (and much worse than Kna in 56), Keilberth's conducting is also more of an issue (I think he rushes too much and doesn't support his singers properly). Worst of all, for a set that sells itself on sound quality, is the hissing noise in scene 3 (already mentioned). The set is also not cheap (you could buy the Furtwangler, Kna and Krauss and still have change), and there are some odd economies on the packaging (no synopsis, the same essay with all the operas).
If sound quality is important, that does rule out many great live recordings from the 50s (however, these mono era does contain many of the most satisfying musically - for me at least). The Krauss Ring already mentioned is fantastic, quite brisk, but it doesn't feel rushed in the way Keilberth does. I think his Siefried is the finest on disc. However the sound is very poor (not quite the awful of constant 'drop out' and the like one has with Furtwangler at La Scala in 1950 but not that good either), frequently it is horribly tinny. However, 3 years better, Knappertsbusch, again at Bayreuth (like Krauss and Keilberth) is in much finer sound (and among the best mono I've heard). However, Kna's conducting isn't for all, I find the slowness brings out a remarkable beauty in the works, others will doubtless find it dull. It also suffers from an electronic machine to do the anvils in Rheingold which sounds very, well, electronic.
Moving into the stereo era and the studio, Solti is to my ears (and many others') hard to match. However, there is a sizeable body of opinion that doesn't get on with what he does with the score. The singing, especially from Hotter, while fine, is not what it was in the 50s Bayreuth issues. Still, every Ring is a compromise and Solti is the only one who combines very good sound with good singing. It is, perhaps, overproduced, though that doesn't bother me, and its emphasis of the orchestral parts (which perhaps earns it some of its dislike) is for me one of its strengths.
Bohm's Bayreuth effort (from the late 60s) ought to be a winner. It has the best sound out of Bayreuth yet, it has liveness on its side, it has Windgassen as Siegfried and it has Nilsson as Brunnhilde (on finer form than they were for Solti). Unfortunately, it also has Theo Adam as Wotan and he is not Hans Hotter, which is probably the reason why the only opera of the cycle I really love if Gotterdammerung. It is also not quite as live as some of the 50s issues (there are some very noticeable edits, between the last two scenes of the final opera, for example).
Levine has his fans, but I am not one of them. To go slowly in Wagner one needs to bring something very special, to my ears Kna does, Levine does not and I just find his reading terribly dull. He has some fine singers (Jerusalem is one of the best Siegfrieds of recent years and Morris is a fine Wotan) but it has its weak links too (Behrens is woefully underpowered as Brunnhilde). In the DVD things are worse. The acting (Morris, Jerusalem and one or two others excepted) is awful - when Behrens awakes in act 3 of Siegfried she is almost comical. Of course, poor acting wouldn't matter if the music and singing were fine enough..... Often it is the direction that is at fault: having Hunding, Siegmund and Sieglinde just sit in a circle for about half an hour in act 1 of Walkure when none of them can act (or sing that remarkably) on an empty stage, it just plain daft. The dragon is Siegfried is dreadful (unlike most productions lack of money wasn't the problem - however, they seem to have spent fortune to come up with something out of a 50s b-movie called something like 'the blob'). Assuming the Boulez DVDs are all up to the standard set by Rheingold, I think I will part company with Levine.
Barenboim, again at Bayreuth, has many things going for him (chief among them the extraordinary Mime of Graham Clark). Yet he suffers from his regular problem of trying to be Furtwangler and not quite managing it.
For the ultimate in sonic quality though, one probably has to look to Haitink, in the studio with the Bavarian radio symphony orchestra. This set has a lot going for it: in technical terms it is to Solti what Solti is to the 50s Bayreuth Rings, the orchestra is first rate and Haitink's reading is magical, bringing remarkable freshness to the score. There is some great singing, Jerusalem on duty as Siegfried again and Morris as Wotan what is more there is the wonderful Alberich of Theo Adam (who is much finer in this role than he was a Wotan). The set is now out fairly cheaply on EMI (albeit without librettos). However, only the Rheingold can carry a strong recommendation because the set also has a crippling flaw: the Brunnhilde of Eva Marton. Overpowered with too much vibrato (which delivers a sound soothingly akin to a police siren). At least with Behrens and her like one can ignore and concentrate on the good things, that isn't a possibility here and it is very difficult to find a satisfactory volume. All of which is a great shame, as there is a lot to love about the set.
Of course, what I'm really waiting for is a recording from Donald Runnicles, who has been extremely impressive in the Wagner I have heard him in, perhaps with Christine Brewer as Brunnhilde......
However, there are probably plenty of people who would say some, or even all is nonsense so the best option is to get yourself to your local classical cd shop (in the unlikely event that you have a good one near you) and have a listen to some samples. You say you are enjoying the Solti - if so, you should like the rest. I would say is to own Solti coupled with either Kna or Krauss from Bayreuth (with possibly one of the Furtwanglers thrown in for good measure).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 12 February 2007 by Tam
Have tracked down my review of the Keilberth Rheingold (first posted over on the R3 boards):
regards, Tam
regards, Tam
quote:
I have somewhat mixed feelings about the Testament/Keilberth Ring (which I ought to caveat with the fact that so far I have heard only Siegfried and Rheingold).
I was very much impressed with Siegfried (and, judging from Rheingold, can see why they took the superficially odd decision to release it first). It is true that Hotter, Windgassen and the like have never previously been captured quite so well on disc and their singing is finer than it was for Solti some years later. But, here's the thing, it is no finer than it was for either Knappertsbusch or Krauss at around the same time. And I still find both those (the 56, in the case of Kna) more compelling. That said, there are one or two moments that Keilberth captures fore me in a particularly special way, one is Fafner's roaring as he awakens and the other is the scene between Mime (though I still don't think I've heard a Mime on CD to rival Graham Clark) and Wotan in act one (which would not normally be a highlight for me). However, to these ears, the final act lacks the out and out fire and passion I find in Krauss.
Of course, Keilberth does have a key advantage over Krauss - the sound is much much better (for the latter it is often horribly constricted and tinny). However, the sound is perfect, it is, of course, not so fine as Solti (though I won't dwell on that as it leads to the whole live/studio debate) but neither is it as fine as Boehm (though that has its own problems, such as Theo Adam being no Hans Hotter). However, even among the 50s Bayreuth cycles I do not think it quite reigns supreme. Take, for example the 56 Kna in its latest Orfeo transfer which sounds remarkably fine (indeed, compared to Keilberth with the mono switch on it yields remarkably little). In fact, in some regards it is finer: Keilberth suffers in a number of places from a nasty sibilance/distortion on Windgassen's loudest notes while forging the sword, as do both Varnay and Windgassen in the final scene.
However, these minor quibbles not withstanding I rank it as a very fine set. Rheingold, on the other hand, was deeply disappointing for me. The first think I noticed is an entirely cosmetic issue - the essay is identical (save a note about that hiss, the accuracy of which I am sceptical about) to that in Siegfried (and, I assume the other two issues). When paying as much as these issues are priced at, this is poor. Poorer still, is that neither has a synopsis. I don't really need it (I know the operas backwards), but they can be useful and, again, these sets are not cheap and it is as such a puzzling omission (and far from the standards that might be expected from this company).
Several other more serious 'cosmetic' issues also blight this set. This first is the aforementioned hiss in scene three (which astonishingly gets no mention in Alan Blyth's review). This would probably not irritate quite so much but this set's key selling point (and the basis on which it has largely been sold to us) is of having the best sound of any of the 50s Bayreuth recordings. I also dispute that the cause is an electronic machine for the anvils as stated in the notes, not least because the anvils sound nothing like the genuinely (awful) electronic ones that blight Kna in 56. Equally irritating is the disc break. Standard practice in just about every recording I own (I'd have to check to be certain, but certainly I've not noticed it elsewhere) seems to be in a conveniently quiet moment just into scene 3. Perhaps the hiss precluded this. Certainly the obvious excuse of 'timing issues' cannot apply here. However, ended as it does after Fricka's final words in scene 2 (very nearly cutting her off) is a very unsatisfactory point to break. I can forgive bad CD breaks when they come on, say the Furtwangler/Scala Ring, given my set was less than £20, but here, at this price, one would expect more care.
Most of which wouldn't bother me if the musical quality was outstanding. I don't find it to be. I don't think the singing on display in the issue is especially remarkably and I am entirely out of sympathy with Keilberth's conducting. Doubtless this will be a personal issue, however, I find it rushed to such an extent that much of the drama and beauty is lost. Interestingly, I do not find the same from Krauss's reading which is also similarly brisk. Wotan's fanfare at the start of scene two seems utterly devoid of grandeur. I feel that Keilberth does not properly support his singers - in Fafner's first appearance, for example.
Worst of all, on the key selling point of sound quality, I think this issue is very poor. Not quite so bad as Krauss but I find the 56 Kna much preferable. There are points (for example in the overture) of dropout, the sound in general is rather harsh and frequently distorts in the louder moments, sometimes painfully so (especially the brass). Indeed, at times there is a tinniness that not a million miles from that on Krauss. It makes me wonder whether the decision not to release these discs previously had more to do with these issues that the oft-stated Culshaw didn't like live recordings.
On that score, I have to say that audience noise hasn't particularly bothered me on any of these. But then, it usually doesn't. I find that if the recording is fine enough I couldn't care less (as witnessed by the Giulini/ROH Don Carlos which has a particularly enthusiastic audience but which I still cannot stop playing).
I will possibly pick up the others at some point (I think Keilberth's conducting might be pretty well suited to Walkure, and I am interested to hear how the recording quality fairs over the other two). However, while Siegfried is for me a top recommendation, Rheingold is very much not. And it does have to be noted that this cycle offers poor value for money (for the price of the full set one could easily pick up Kna, Krauss and Furtwangler).
Posted on: 12 February 2007 by Rubio
Thank you very much for taking your time to write this long answer. It was interesting to read and helpful. To me it also seems like the Rheingold is the low-point of the Keilberth cycle from the reviews I have read so far. Maybe it won't be helpful for my decision to borrow the Keilberth "Siegfried" from the library (the only one they have from his cycle), as the different parts of the Ring can be successfull to varying degree.
In fact, I would say that there's something attractive with opera recordings in historical sound. Maybe, I feel some of the singing in some of the more modern recordings can be a bit over-whelming. I really like the old Maria Callas stuff, so maybe I will have the same relationship with Wagner? And then maybe even the Krauss cycle could be very good. It's a bit attractive as it is cheaper than many other sets. So maybe that could be a good start.
Are you planning to acquire the "Walkure" and the "Gotterdammerung" from the Keilberth Testament cycle. There are also some people who swear to the Karajan Ring.
In fact, I would say that there's something attractive with opera recordings in historical sound. Maybe, I feel some of the singing in some of the more modern recordings can be a bit over-whelming. I really like the old Maria Callas stuff, so maybe I will have the same relationship with Wagner? And then maybe even the Krauss cycle could be very good. It's a bit attractive as it is cheaper than many other sets. So maybe that could be a good start.
Are you planning to acquire the "Walkure" and the "Gotterdammerung" from the Keilberth Testament cycle. There are also some people who swear to the Karajan Ring.
Posted on: 12 February 2007 by graham55
I haven't heard the Keilberth Ring, other than in radio extracts.
But I have, and love, the Solti set. The recording, orchestra and singers are all quite remarkable, a tour de force from the producer John Culshaw and his team. And Solti's not as rushed as some would have you believe. These four operas may constitute the highpoint of classical music recording - from a purely recorded sound perspective.
So I'd suggest getting the Solti discs and supplementing them with the rather wonderful (but not very well recorded) Krauss from Bayreuth in 1953, available from Archipel, who had much the same cast as Keilberth.
Graham
But I have, and love, the Solti set. The recording, orchestra and singers are all quite remarkable, a tour de force from the producer John Culshaw and his team. And Solti's not as rushed as some would have you believe. These four operas may constitute the highpoint of classical music recording - from a purely recorded sound perspective.
So I'd suggest getting the Solti discs and supplementing them with the rather wonderful (but not very well recorded) Krauss from Bayreuth in 1953, available from Archipel, who had much the same cast as Keilberth.
Graham
Posted on: 12 February 2007 by Tam
quote:Originally posted by Rubio:
Are you planning to acquire the "Walkure" and the "Gotterdammerung" from the Keilberth Testament cycle. There are also some people who swear to the Karajan Ring.
I may well pick them up (am instinctively a bit of a completist) but I am in no hurry to do so.
I'd agree with Graham that rushed is not a description of the Solti Ring that is accurate (particularly not when set against Keilberth).
As to the Keilberth Siegfried - if you can borrow it from your library I would definitely recommend that you do so - there is nothing to lose.
regards, Tam