Rugby World Cup

I still say Wilkinson should be at center ...

Aren't the French back row awesome!

Alan

Yeah, but weren't you the guy who though Gregor Townsend was 'it'? I thought Patterson played very well against the Aussies.

Poor ref'ing nonwithstanding, Scotland played a poor game. The handling was awful and Townsend had bugger all impact on the game. It was a shame because Australia didn't look particularly impressive. The All Blacks should comfortably beat them.

What about Wales, though? What a dramatic improvement.

Patrick - I rate Gregor as a good fly half, but probably past his best. Even in his present state I would pick him over JW, but then I admit I might be biased. Don't you think JW would be a "world class" centre?

Outside centers tend not to have much impact on the match.

I agree Wales look like a different side.

I must admit to watching my first game of the Egg Chasing World Cup this weekend and quite enjoying the Welsh performance. A bit sad they got knocked out but hopefully the French will do a number on the English this weekend.

Normally I admire and even have a grudging aftection for Aussie sports teams -- in the way one really admires a perfectly deigned and built BMW even if one would never do anything as tasteless as to actually own one -- but their Rugby Union team is still blighted by its association with the most hateful man in all of sport David Campese so I shall be cheering on NZ in the other semi.

Matthew

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... the most hateful man in all of sport David Campese

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So why is he "the most hateful man in all of sport"? Has he gang-raped some girl? Was he involved in an unprovoked racist (or not) attack on somebody? Is he guilty of taking performance enhancing drugs or otherwise cheating? I think you may have your perspective wrong Matthew.

Patrick,

I would have thought it obvious that such comments were not meant to be taken literally.

Matthew

The point about Campese is that no-one likes him, not even his former teammates and definitely no-one associated with the current Australian team which he has done nothing but whinge about.
John

I like him.

I loved that thing he did against the Lions - you know, running the ball from his own goal line and giving away the try that meant the Lions won the series.

Yeah, that was pretty funny. A total Campo moment


red

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but hopefully the French will do a number on the English this weekend.

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Why, Matthew?

Dave,

Because I don't like the England Rugby Union team. I have no particular love of Rugby or cultural connection to the game so tend to approach it as more or less a neutral. As England have consistently been among the least entertaining sides to watch and have often had some very annoying players (Will Carling runs David Campese a close second in the annoying stakes) I can find little reason to support them. Supporting them just beuase they are English would seem odd to me. I think I'd support them over Austrailia but that's about it.

Having said that if they suddenly come over all entertaining and exciting I'd be happy to change my mind. But I think dullness is pretty much engrained in the English Rugby psyche. They are sort of the Rugby equivalent of Germany in football.

Matthew

Matthew, I find your position on this very odd. I thought you professed little knowledge of the game.

Are you basing your views upon the one England game you say you've seen or have you been reading Campese's bigotted rants?

Other than Will Carling, who else - particularly in the current line up - has annoyed you?

In the build up to the RWC England had played some excellent rugby and shown attacking adventure and enterprise. The misfiring in this tournament has partly been because of an apparent desire to play fast and attacking rugby without quite getting the basics right. If England play to form they are not dull or boring to watch anymore.


Bruce

Dave,

I'm not sure why find my attitude odd unless you think that I should support England simply becuase I am English? As long as I can remember England have been boring to watch (Johnny W., Rob Andrew, Dusty Hare... Has there ever been a time when England haven't based their game around having a much better goalkicker than the opposition?) and my experiences of this go all the way back to my childhood when I really cheered on the blokes in red shirts because they were really exciting and yet I couldn't be bothered to watch if the team in the white shirts was playing as nothing much ever seemed to happen. Oddly for someone who has rarely watched a game since I was about 10 and started going to football matches, JPR Williams was one of my favourite sportsmen as a 7 year-old (although partly this was a deep fascination with his sideburns). I suppose if I'd known someone who liked rugby at the time I might have been "corrected" into cheering for England but I didn't know a single person growing up who had the slightest interest in it so I just went with what I liked rather than who.

The other problem with England has been their conspicuous lack of success over many, many years despite having many more players to choose from than the other nations. Consistently blowing Grand Slams at Murrayfield or in Dublin against teams with far fewer resources makes it difficult to admire them. As does their (generally speaking) complete lack of humility in face of this abject record.

So a boring, under-achieving bunch with a tendecny to arrogance. I can't imagine why anyone essentially neutral on the sport like myself would like them or even wish them anyhing other than the most appalling bad luck.

Matthew

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So a boring, under-achieving bunch with a tendecny to arrogance. I can't imagine why anyone essentially neutral on the sport like myself would like them or even wish them anyhing other than the most appalling bad luck.

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Sounds very like the England football team to me. Have they ever played an 'entertaining' game? I suppose Germany 1 England 5 was quite entertaining, but more because it was the germans on the receiving end I guess. If I recall correctly England have even stuggled to beat Scotland, and Scottish players can't even get into the top Scottish league teams! How poor is that?

The ABs, Australia and South Africa have all won the world cup but played 'professional' rather than 'entertaining' rugby to do it. This England side are the most talented, most professional, most entertaining England side I have ever seen. Hopefully, they will show it in this tournament before the end. If not, it is all about winning and they won't care so long as they win.

A good kicker is essential to any side at the top level. The way the game is, the opposition will try to kill the ball and conceed a penalty rather than a try. If you can't punish them, you won't win the close games. In the last world cup England were beaten by a side that scored 5 drop goals from way out, without ever looking like crossing the line.

Well, Matthew, you're obviously entitled to your view although your incomplete knowledge of what's been happening in the game since JPR's days is clear.

Nevertheless, given your supposed refusal to support "boring underachieving" teams, do you support England when it comes to football? And in the same vein, why do you bother with West Ham?

Dave

So a boring, under-achieving bunch with a tendecny to arrogance.

Matthew,
You could have a glittering career in the Australian sports media with an attitude like that.

Speaking as someone who has taken a life long interest in rugby I am utterly baffled by this accusation of English arrogance - and I have heard it from people of various nationalities (French, Irish, Australian). When and how, precisely, has this arrogance manifested itself? Other than that we have beaten your team and you didn't like it?

Given that England defeated every credible contender for the WC at least twice in the run up to the tournament and were ranked number 1 in the World going into it, I'd say we have been very modest and realistic about our chances of winning it.
John

From a Pacific perspective I'd say that Clive Woodward, Martin Johnson etc have behaved damn close to impeccably at this tournament.

Arrogance, no. Confidence and self belief, yes.

ITs the dickhead English media who make the neutral fans dislike England. God knows how you guys put up with them...


red

As long as I can remember England have been boring to watch (Johnny W., Rob Andrew, Dusty Hare... Has there ever been a time when England haven't based their game around having a much better goalkicker than the opposition?)

I think you are patently confusing too issues here. One is the ability to kick goals from penalties, the other is a reliance on a kicking rather than running game. The England team that made the World Cup final in 1991 relied heavily on a solid defence and an attacking game based around trying to kick the ball into touch in the oppositions 22 and win the subsequent line out. We were slated by the Australians for not trying to run the whole length of the pitch passing the ball among the backs, but this was probably more a grudging respect of the fact that our tactics were simple but infuriatingly effective. The England team of that era was boring to watch, but they are a million miles away from the current England team which has a far greater repertoire. Now England are a possession team, we rarely want to kick in attack because it just hands the ball back to the opposition. We may not play the ball as wide as quickly as say the All Blacks, but our multi-phase driving game is a fantastic sight when in full flow. Ironically I would say that England now play like the ABs of old, SA seem to have a game similar to England in the early 90s (kick and hope) and the ABs themselves play more like Australia did in the past.
John

So is it fair to say that most of you guys have given up on England actually winning this thing???

But when it comes to Football I have a long standing deep cultural and emotional connection with with the game so I am anything but neutral and support the England team despite their obvious faults (rarely playing well, never winning anything, presence of Gary Neville, etc). Primarily this is becuase the England side is made up of the players I follow week in week out as much as them being English.

I will, btw, be supporting Scotland on Saturday despite my traditional animosity to the shoulder chipped Scots as the spine of their team -- Christian Dailly and The Deadly Don himself -- are two of West Ham's finest. I may even cheer on the Welsh as long as Robbie Savage is not playing.

Dave -- A passing familiarity with West Ham will disabuse you of the notion that they are boring even if excitement often comes in the form of blowing 3-0 home leads. And as for winning things West Ham have won 2 FA Cups in the last generation and of course won the World Cup in 1966.

Matthew

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So is it fair to say that most of you guys have given up on England actually winning this thing???

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Not quite, although things may well look very different for us all on Saturday/Sunday lunchtime/bedtime.

England will be a difficult team to beat, I'm sure you've seen enough not to argue too hard against that, but it's disappointing we haven't seen 'a performance' from them yet. The back line really hasn't clicked, and the forwards have made too many errors. The closest they've come was the second half against Wales; I'm sure they could have scored lots of tries then, but chose to shut the welsh out of the game, after the shock of the first 40 minutes.

John,

You obviously have a much deeper understanding of the game than me (to say the least) and wouldn't know a "multi-phased driving game" if it hit me. All I can say is that, as a neutral, the Welsh played much more entertainingly and creatively and with ten times the passion and flair than the English and deserved to win the quarter final even if England were technically mcuh better.

Matthew

So is it fair to say that most of you guys have given up on England actually winning this thing???

No, but I think most of us are realistic about the level we need to reach to beat France and the All Blacks and it is not too hard to extrapolate our performances so far in this tournament to a defeat against either of those teams.

As I have said before, if every team in the tournament played to their full ability then England would come home with the trophy. Up to now however, we have not even remotely approached that level and time is running out fast for us to find the kind of form we have consistently shown in the last 2 years.
John