Steer clear of cheap metal racks!

i dont want to conclude its this ferrous effect until i have had a chance to put it back and see if i notice an equally shocking degradation.

i am not sure when i will feel like doing this. right now i am just happy to enjoy the system as it is without messing about...

however, if i ever get round to a "proper" test, will report...

enjoy

ken

I have had such an effect from my LP12.

The problem we resolved by moving it away from the system, but closer to the listening position. You would expect this to affect the perceived sound more if the issue is resonances upsetting the sound.

cheers, Martin

Just get your ferrous rack and move it close to your system. You'll hear the difference it makes even then. The equipment doesn't have to be on it to demonstrate the effect. Saves you messing around.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

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Originally posted by Peter Chappell:
Ken, I've had similar experience with tubular metal-framed rack.

IMO, don't think the adverse effect is only (or even significantly) to do with "ferrous" (i.e. made of iron). Aluminium alloy might do the same - if its a hard, high-Q (resonant) metal structure.

I do think its got a lot to do with how the metal tube "rings" when excited by audio energy. If I wrap a layer of foam around the (ferous) metal, the bad effects go away.

Shifting the system to a separate room from the speakers is likely to give similar improvements, shielding the stand from audio energy.

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peter, many thanks. this sounds interesting. so the ill-effects MAY not be to do with proximity of the said rack to my electronics (in this power amps) but that it was close to the sbl's "firing" line. (it wasnt directly in front!!! that would have been stupid.)

i will check for this when i get round to consucting a proper test.

enjoy

ken

The problem we resolved by moving it away from the system, but closer to the listening position. ...

with the prefix cabling so short, i find there is no way i can move the lp12 "away" from the system. in fact i found that i needed to bring it even closer to the source electronics (52, cdsii, etc).. how did you do this -- i know you have a stageline?

enjoy

ken

i will do one of these days frank. right the only way i can have the said rack "near" my system will be when it directly in the firing line of the speakers. this is easy for me to do -- but whether this will isolate a "ferrous" effect, i dunno. i cannot put the cd rack where it was without removing its replacement -- and thats a real hassle (have to remove all the cd's first -- i am not doing that in a hurry).

i do like peter chappell's explanation though -- it would explain a lot of other effects.

many thanks for suggestion.

you never told me how good the te kaitora is compared to the XX2 (which i think is pure magic!!!). then there is the XV1??

enjoy

ken

After all, we all live on the cool crust of a huuuuge ball of molten iron and other nasties. I can't imagine a tiny bit of iron hurting the sound due to its composition alone.

Saying that, I have bought into a non-ferrous design (DNM amps) but my reasons for this are based upon the musicality and quality of the sound, rather than the slightly snake-oil-ish blurb of non-ferrousity...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

i am maintaining an open-"ish" mind. as i said the effect of removing my cd rack was of the shocking kind -- but i not in a rush to conclude its this effect or that. peter chappell's suggestion is very interesting though... although as we know naim amps ring like mad, and any attempt to stop this deteriorates the sound.

enjoy

ken

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That's why shielded cables don't work either and you can neatly strap powercords to the interconnects without any harm...

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Urm, you've obviously never tried a truly unshielded interconnect as the armlead to a turntable, then? I can tell you from experience that it hums like a vindaloo in a spacesuit.

My TT has phono outs for the armlead - and no cable is supplied. Thus, I've had to try a lot of different cables, from £30 DNM Reson up to £1500 Nordost Quattro-fil, to find one that (a) doesn't hum, and (b) doesn't unnecessarily enharshen, subdue or thicken the sound.

I settled on Chord Solid, Phono->DNM Din plug (non-ferrous, heh heh) as it was the best shielded alternative available. Worst offendors were the DNM Reson (50Hz hell, sadly) and the Nordost Blue Heaven (SPM is better, but still hums, and what's the point of a great interconnect if the finer detail is lost in a vast sea of AC mung)

So, don't you be going telling everyone that shielded cables don't work. On higher-level outputs, such as out of CD players and the like, the hum is inaudible, since the signal levels are such that at regular listening levels the hum is -lots of db. However, for low-level MC signals it's a different tale indeed.

Consider yourself scolded, my friend!

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

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Originally posted by Frank Abela:

Just get your ferrous rack and move it _close_ to your system. You'll hear the difference it makes even then. The equipment doesn't have to be on it to demonstrate the effect. Saves you messing around.

_

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Frank,

So how do you discount the effect of the different position of the rack interfering with the sound waves in a different way from where the rack was before? There is also the possibility that the proximity of the rack affects how the existing rack / other furniture interacts with the floor for vibration dissipation / excitation. Same goes for any change to the layout of a room.

Kevin

PS For a great demo of Faraday cage effects go to this site http://webphysics.davidson.edu/Applets/Poisson/Faraday.html. I have just realised that the Faraday cage needs to be complete so a Mana table or similar does not form a Faraday cage - it has enormous gaps in the sides!

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Originally posted by dozy:
Don't confuse a cheap metal rack with Mana - which removes harshness very well IMHO. The Mana seems to be hugely beneficial despite being made of metal.

Dozy

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quite right to point this out. we may be talking about a whole combination of factors here. peter has highlighted one possible one -- there may well be many others... differences between iron and steel?? dunno...

enjoy

ken

You wrote:

>But the fact remains that in order to shield
>sensitive electronic equipment from stray
>electromagnetic fields you have to surround it
>with metal in the form of a Faraday cage, so I am >afraid as far as I can tell you are talking
>bollocks.

Reasonable but let's separate 'metal' from 'ferrous metal'. A Faraday cage could be made from aluminium which has distinctively different physical and electromagnetic properties than, say, steel.

Best Regards,
Mark Dunn

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Originally posted by ken c:
with the prefix cabling so short, i find there is no way i can move the lp12 "away" from the system. in fact i found that i needed to bring it even closer to the source electronics (52, cdsii, etc).. how did you do this -- i know you have a stageline?

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Ken,

"i know you have a stageline"

Well, there's your answer. Stageline is an external box, so the original leads from the LP12 are in place, as well as the SNAIC5 to socket 2 of 52.

Of course, if I ran it from a HiCap I could get it even further away! Not that there's anywhere convenient for me to move it to anyway.

Sound-wise, though, I suspect that a DV 17d2 would give me a much greater benefit.

cheers, Martin

P.S. note BNCs on Stageline.

ah, that explains it. i dont know why in my mind i though the cabling of the stageline was similar to prefix...

many thanks...

enjoy

ken
ps: do you "believe" in this so called ferrous effect then??

i guess this sounds similar from the shocking improvement that i got. for me the acoustic of the music was much better. there was a better ambience -- a stronger, much strong sense of performance.

when did you do this peter?? recently??

unfortunately there i not much else i can do in my office (with all the computer equipment) to see if i can improve things a bit more. i know for a fact that i sit too close to the speakers but there i nothing i can do about that. also, the speakers are more than 6' apart -- i cant do anything about that either -- there is a radiator in the middle, and my desk too (slightly narrower).

its a miracle this system sounds any good at all...

enjoy

ken

quote:

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Originally posted by ken c:

ps: do you "believe" in this so called ferrous effect then??

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I have heard a remarkeably deleterious effect from having the LP12 too close to the rest of the system. I have assumed that this is a ferrous effect.

This is why I bought the Stageline, to distance the deck from the Naim stuff.

cheers, Martin

P.S. wasn't hunting for this effect, just found it by accident when demoing the AF Base racks.

They were a considerable dissapointment, moving the LP12 out of 'desperation', and all present were amazed at the size of the improvement.

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...P.S. wasn't hunting for this effect, just found it by accident when demoing the AF Base racks.

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interesting -- same here -- i wasnt looking for ANY effet when i moved my old cd rack. i simply wanted more storage space -- and look what happens!!

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They were a considerable dissapointment, moving the LP12 out of 'desperation', and all present were amazed at the size of the improvement

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i notice you have a custom built table for your lp12. what did you have for the rest of the electronics before the AF's. i'm just wondering whether there was some sort of negative interaction between the lp12 and the AF's.

i go along with the suggestion that whatever this "ferrous" effect is -- its probably not a question of whether something is made of iron/steel or not -- but perhaps a more complicated interaction? what? dunno.... peter chappell has a very interesting idea, which he appears to have "proved" by a simple damping experiment/treatment.

enjoy

ken

quote:

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Originally posted by ken c:
i notice you have a custom built table for your lp12. what did you have for the rest of the electronics before the AF's.

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Custom built, from the same guy.A year or two later he started experimenting with aluminium instead of steel, but I never got to hear any of his stuff.

quote:

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perhaps a more complicated interaction? what? dunno.... peter chappell has a very interesting idea, which he appears to have "proved" by a simple damping experiment/treatment.

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As I said before:-

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The problem [was] resolved by moving it away from the system, but closer to the listening position. You would expect this to affect the perceived sound more if the issue is resonances upsetting the sound.

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I can only present the bare facts as I have not done any 'experimentation' to try to understand the theory behind the observations.

cheers, Martin

cheers, Martin