Is there going to be a Naim Digital Streamer?

quote:

Originally posted by fixedwheel:

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
You might be scratching your head, but the kids are not-the iPod functionality is market-driven and to exclude this would be silly.

But are the kids the target market for Naim? Do they have the disposable income required?

John the point I was trying to make earlier was that my kids seem to be highly successful at using their ipod touches to play their music through our DS or using them to control the network to stream music from the NAS or their itunes libraries on other computers etc, so who's excluding the kids?

No one is excluding the 'kids' Gary, at all.....But, did they buy your Linn DS ?!

quote:

Originally posted by Gary S.:

John the point I was trying to make earlier was that my kids seem to be highly successful at using their ipod touches to play their music through our DS or using them to control the network to stream music from the NAS or their itunes libraries on other computers etc, so who's excluding the kids?

Sorry Gary, my response was mainly aimed at DD, questioning the target market of the DAC. After all, IMHO, most kids won't have £2K to drop on a DAC to improve an existing system.

I have no doubt your kids can find multiple ways of making use of your equipment. I think it is great they want to hear music through decent systems, rather than the cheap and nasty bundled ear-buds. How often do you catch yourself saying "What is this rubbish we are listening to?"

Cheers

John

John

I was with you loud and clear. I too was responding to DD coments. He seemed to be suggesting that the Naim approach was aimed squarely at the ipod users (the kids). I was simply trying (badly!) to point out that other systems integrate with Ipod users already.

Gary

quote:

A Naim streamer / ripper (i.e. diskless HDX, without analogue output stages, simple power supply, etc ) would be hugely popular IMO. Especially if it is teamed up with the DAC unit. Imagine mashing the two together, upgradeable with separate PSU and now you are talking a 1 / 2 box solution that could really raise one's interest!

I agree Allen - that would be the ideal solution. I'd hoped the DAC would come with Firewire or a decent Asynchronous USB connection. SPDIF would be going backwards for me now. Still the proof will be in the listening. The only reference i have at the moment is the CDX2 / DAC sounds a lot better than the bare CDX2.

James

Sure, a Naim digital streamer - why not. However, this HDX bashing going on is ridiculous. I quite like my HDX. I am not upset that it isn't what some of you wanted in a digital device. To those of you who are quivering with anger or simply frustrated that Naim doesn't yet have a digital streamer, well, go and buy a Linn. But quit whining about the HDX.

Yeah.

It seems everyone wants a Linn box with a Naim badge.

Too premature to pass any judgment as none of us has heard it.

Let's see if it clears the sonic hurdle first and go from there?

quote:

Originally posted by docmark:
However, this HDX bashing going on is ridiculous.

I'm not bashing the HDX.

I'm stating why I don't want a HDX.

What p****s me off is people that keep telling me that the HDX is the answer to my requests. It's not. That does not make the HDX a bad product, or my requirements less valid.

John

Look, a UPnP stream player is not a standalone source either, as it requires a UPnP server and a network connection (as well as some means to control it).

Ripping quality has been previously discussed on this and other forums before.

NAS robustness, network throughput and other factors also affect performance, especially once the number of clients starts to bog down the network.

All in all, I think there will, again, be quite a few surprises coming down the pike, once the products are complete and ready for release. My gut instinct is that Naim is listening to its customers, but with a mind to extracting the best possible performance.

Somehow people who opt for a pure streamer have a very consistent picture of what it is that they want and do not want in this imaginary product. This cannot be a coincidence, I am quite sure that these are people who have been there, done that playing around with computer based audio, network streamers and DACs. I hope Naim is watching closely, because right there is your focus group, and we are the people who have experimented with this for a few years and know what works what doesn't.

My opinion is a pure streamer with a good server platform is the mega trend for high end audio and it is best to focus on it.

Example 1:

I am involved in a local interest group for Harbeth speakers. When I first joined 6 months ago there were two of us who owned a Squeezebox based product. Since then, 3 out 4 people in the group now happily own a Squeezebox or a Transporter with various combinations of DACs. These are Naim's prime target market, with mature audiophiles who know what they want, many own Naim and most own or used to own a serious turntable. Most are in their middle ages which I think Naim would not have thought that they would bother to tinker with ripping CDs, servers, NAS and network switches. Surprisingly they are all happily streaming their audio collections now.

Example 2:

In the past 2 days I tried to bid on eBay a "demo" Majik DS with the old power supply. I could not believe the interest on that product. In fact, there was such a feeding frenzy that the transacted price is now *more than* a new one from a delaer after the new Dynamik power supply upgrade.

I am surprised by the popularity of the Linn streamer. I guess the fact that Linn is so focused on a pure streamer that they have a total 4 products which do basically the same job as a pure streamer reflects that there must be something there.

And what is Naim doing about that? They are going every which way but a pure streamer. It seems like they have done almost everything that touches on streaming, but just avoid on the simplest solution.

We can defend Naim's strategy all day long of providing 2 hard discs and a CD player/ripper in the HDX because without that would scare the old school people away. And that the Uniti is a good idea because only young dudes who buy Denon all-in-one receivers would bother with a uPNP streaming solution, or that a high end DAC should not leave the iPod dudes behind. Never mind that these two streamer use different technology are not even compatible with each other.

But what about a pure streamer for us naim stream Naim folks who own an average of 10 black boxes waiting for the final one?

Sorry, I really think Naim really is clueless in this case. The easiest thing to do is just to hand over a black box with a power supply over to a dude name Sean Adams who last I check is out of a job enjoying himself somewhere after selling his dot com called Slim Devices. He knows how to do it.

JYOW,

Out of curiosity, in your opinion, which one is the best sounding *pure* streamer in the market currently?

Kuma,

I wouldn't know which one is the best sounding, as I only have entry level Naim gears. My Transporter sounded very nice in my system, the CD5X justifiably sounded more dynamic in my Naim system, but I would say the Transporter is at least on par.

I did bring the transporter into my Linn dealer and they only had the Klimax DS on site so we did an A/B of the two. The Klimax did sound "blacker", but bearing in mind that the Klimax cost almost 10 times the Transporter, the transporter did quite well.

I think with decent digital gears the differences are quite marginal, I am not sure how Linn justifies the price differences amongst their 4 classes of streamers.

Going back to you original question, I really do not know as I have not heard them all. But I can live with the Transporter or a Linn Majik or Akurate any day.

Kuma,

you know the answer to your question, don't you?

Based on my auditions, the Klimax DS is absolutely on top, followed by Akurate DS, Majik DS, T+A MP1250, Logitech Transporter. I havent heared the new T+A MP1260 yet, but a friend prefers it to the Majik. It can be controled by Kinsky and also has 2 digi inputs, not bad. The HDX being on a similar level than an Akurate.

If Naim wouldnt have the knowledge or the investments would be too high, like for developing an own turntable, then everybody would understand. But HDX and Uniti stream fine, so again, what's the problem?

IMHO the split Streamer -> DAC / extra CAP does only increase complexity, costs and box count. It might be an upgrade option for the future, but it would be perfect to have everything in one box today.

I guess the discussions here are showing that many people have kind of an emotional relation to Naim and that they really do want a pure Naim kit. With most other vendors, people would just leave without bothering. But that´s not a reason for ignoring customer demands...

brgds..TC

yeti.fro

Are you referring to the T+A Music Player?

I am kind of intrigued by its features and quality of construction. But I am not familiar with T+A, is it any good, I wonder....

quote:

Originally posted by JYOW:
...HDX... the Uniti... Never mind that these two streamer use different technology are not even compatible with each other.

This one still makes me chuckle...Totally baffling how they both came from the same place......Logic hey

The Uniti would be a perfect one-box for my office|studio (and I'm sure many other user 2nd systems) but then I read a post here from a user who had just got one asking how he could stream from his HDX rips in the living room....The answer, NO !.....I stopped in my tracks and put it out of my mind....

Naim has already said as much (that the HDX will be able to function as a UPnP server for the Uniti)-please re-read these posts.

Also-what seems to be the missing, killer app in all of this is the UPnP control interface-even the Slim Devices units are weak from this perspective (and Kinsky is a joke). What transpires next in this area may surprise you....

yeti,

I don't know but many of my geek audiophiles tell me just get a Transporter and a DAC of choice as they all seem to think the Transporter is good enough ( it seems that wordclock input is the big advantage ) transport and that the bulk of performance comes from the DAC and a very good master clock synced with the wordclock.

The Linn thing works, I suppose, but sadly it's not the kind of sound I am looking for. I am not surprised that the Transport didn't stand up to the unit but it might be okey with a master clock and a very good DAC whatever it may be.

But I couldn't deal with their user interface.

quote:

the HDX will be able to function as a UPnP server for the Uniti)

With respect David, will just isn't good enough these days....It should have been there from the off. It's their own box and it cannot even 'talk' to another digital product in their own product line...

Is that the same will as the ripping to NAS, ALAC support, blah blah....?!

Is it me or are people missing naimnet.com ?

As for the HDX, I am fascinated to hear what a DAC does to it, as it sounds pretty bloody good with just an old XPS power supply (52/SC/500 room 1/ 250 room 2, nap90 (bathroom) room3

All of which are hard wired off the 52/supercap, no need to stream if your re-building the house

For what it's worth, I can't hear the HDX at all even in the same room when playing and even then its very quiet when ripping (which i'm doing alot of at the moment.

For me the appeal was a better ripping tool (and low hassle) though i appreaciate many have large libruaries already I did'nt as was still using the CDS1 (which the HDX totally smokes IMHO) and also somthing you can multi room off later into more rooms if i want to.

>Is it me or are people missing naimnet.com ?

Indeed, isn't that the problem. Is it still an active initiative? Or is this a secret project?

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
What transpires next in this area may surprise you....

Voice activated UPnP control?

Can you give us a hint? Some of us don't like surprises.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

quote:

Originally posted by JYOW:
>Is it me or are people missing naimnet.com ?

Indeed, isn't that the problem. Is it still an active initiative? Or is this a secret project?

My impression is that it's like a company within a company, like a separate division, mainly catering to the custom installation market (i.e. filthy rich need only apply). As such the dealer base is slightly different to your traditional hi-fi shop (not meaning one excludes the other).

I think you'll find it's very much alive, but it would also appear that Naim would prefer not to confuse the hierarchies (as if we need more confusion ) and they do not seem to advocate mix'n'match.

Oh Yes the Bentley crowd?

I think Naim should quickly realize that that high end multi-rooms custom installer thing is very much passé. People are doing that for a fraction of the cost with better sound.

Come to think of it, we are already a very small niche. Now Naim is trying to pick a niche amongst the niche market.

Who are they after? The Queen?

I thought the Queen has Linn?

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
Also-what seems to be the missing, killer app in all of this is the UPnP control interface-even the Slim Devices units are weak from this perspective (and Kinsky is a joke)

I fully agree, that the control will be the crucial part. I´ve ca. 11000 tracks on my server, and the navigaion is really the key to the everything.

I dont like the Logitech control, although it´s one of the better things. The BIG disadvantage of Logitech is the proprietary server (Squeezecenter), which is not running on all servers. Closed islands will fail or get hacked...

Why do you think Kinsky is a joke?

It´s working errorfree, lets you create playlists easily and comfortably, you can browse and look at the covers, can control your Sonos in the kitchen etc etc. And most importantly, you dont need to switch on your PC to use it. I dont want to have a PC in my listening room either.

Yep, it´s not as cool as a Sooloos, but it´s open source and the new Cara version is a major step in the right direction. Developments like Leia DS proof that the open system is a real benefit. BTW instead of making fun about other products, feel free and code something better. I´m sure it would be appreciated

thx n brgds...TC