Is there going to be a Naim Digital Streamer?

yeti.fro,

SequeezeCenter is very flexible. I use OrangeCD to "call" Squeezecenter and never use the SC web interface.

OrangeCD is quite a good music organizer with a nice GUI, quick search and many other features.

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
yeti,

I don't know but many of my geek audiophiles tell me just get a Transporter and a DAC of choice as they all seem to think the Transporter is good enough

The Linn thing works, I suppose, but sadly it's not the kind of sound I am looking for.

Hi Kuma,

hm, I havent tried the transporter with an external DAC. However, both Sonos and Squeezebox are IMHO not able to cope with a Majik DS, even with a really good DAC. Tried for example a Sonos and the Majik DS both running digitally into an Unidisc SC and the difference was clearly audible. So I guess the streamer also has a significant influence.

What do you not like in the presentation of the Linn DS? IMHO they are much better than the Linn CDPs and even a Majik DS comes quite close to a CDX2/XPS2. And I even havent heard the Dynamik yet.

brgds...TC

quote:

Originally posted by JYOW:
yeti.fro

Are you referring to the T+A Music Player?

I am kind of intrigued by its features and quality of construction. But I am not familiar with T+A, is it any good, I wonder....

Hi,

the Music Player is a CDP which can also act as a streamer and a DAC and is kind of the entry model. The MP1260 is not including a CDP and is higher in the T+A hierarchy, e.g. a better DAC, having the option to choose different filters.

In general T+A are greatly build and sound quite neutral and clean, but maybe not as emotional as Linn or Naim. However, you need to try yourself.

brgds..TC

quote:

Originally posted by JYOW:
I thought the Queen has Linn?

Probably Arcam....

quote:

I think Naim should quickly realize that that high end multi-rooms custom installer thing is very much passé. People are doing that for a fraction of the cost with better sound.

Yes - but that doesn't cater for the full home automation market - Naimnet and the netstream digilinx stuff integrate nicely in with the Crestron ligthing and HVAC sysrems and video distribution - its really all very neat and with the Naimnet infrastructure very good quality too.

James

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
Look, a UPnP stream player is not a standalone source either, as it requires a UPnP server and a network connection (as well as some means to control it).

I'm well aware of that fact, but Naim has already accepted that fact by shipping the naimuniti. After all, as the HDX, at this moment in time, cannot function as a server (UPnP, or otherwise) to the naimuniti Naim must be OK about integrating with 3rd party solutions.

quote:

Ripping quality has been previously discussed on this and other forums before.

And quite a few people have taken a bruising on that subject as well. I've yet to see Naim state, categorically, that the HDX gives better rips than can be achieved with a PC or MAC based ripping solution. And until they do I am going to laugh at anybody that tries to say it for them.

quote:

NAS robustness, network throughput and other factors also affect performance, especially once the number of clients starts to bog down the network.

Depends on your network setup. I hope you are not going to suggest that only a network installed by a NaimNet dealer can be adequate? And as far as robustness goes, the HDX doesn't even give you the opportunity to back the contents of its internal drives up to storage that you can move off-site. As for network capacity 100Mb Ethernet can deal with multiple streams, I set up a streaming setup at a friend's house 3 Squeezeboxes all streaming lossless FLAC files, independent or syncronised with no issues to the network.

quote:

All in all, I think there will, again, be quite a few surprises coming down the pike, once the products are complete and ready for release. My gut instinct is that Naim is listening to its customers, but with a mind to extracting the best possible performance.

I think a lot of people will want to know firm time scales if the product isn't feature-rich or feature-complete when it ships.

John

quote:

Originally posted by yeti.fro:
hm, I havent tried the transporter with an external DAC. However, both Sonos and Squeezebox are IMHO not able to cope with a Majik DS, even with a really good DAC. Tried for example a Sonos and the Majik DS both running digitally into an Unidisc SC and the difference was clearly audible.

Which *good* DAC?

quote:

So I guess the streamer also has a significant influence.

I would suspect so. I think that the category itself is too premature to determine which offers the best yet.
I would also suspect that some design compromises are made to accommodate features and/or compatibility like anything else. ( a one box universal player was/is such a beast, for instance )

quote:

What do you not like in the presentation of the Linn DS? IMHO they are much better than the Linn CDPs and even a Majik DS comes quite close to a CDX2/XPS2.

I never warmed up to Linn Majik players as well as current Akurate CD player.
I suppose I prefer the Naim sound. To my ears, they don't sound alike at all. ( FWIW, I much prefer the HDX over the Klimax DS )

So, funcionality stand point, it might fit many's wish list yet, sonically it didn't do it for me. Certainly, whilst it maintained above average performance, it did not make me want to ditch my CD players tomorrow.

Hi there,

Well, after waiting to hear about Naim's roadmap to provide a Streamer device and not hearing anything. I currently am about to place an order for a Linn Akurate DS.

Gonna get it in black so it matches my Naim boxes.

Roy.

I'm surprised after waiting this long that people are "jumping ship" when the production version is a month or so away from release.

I'd suspect that you'd want to wait until release and see what actually is done and what features are offered before making a final decision. From my experience with Naim, you never get the whole piture from the Roadshows. You need to have the thing at the dealers place when you can really assess the final assebled version and hear and see what it's capable of before making a final decision.

It is clear that you will be able to use a Mac/PC, but just not directly with a USB connection, which if you've followed the various discussions is really not the way to go. A separate sound card or even better an intermediary such as a TC K8 firewire, and if you folowed DDs diagram the firewire from the Mac are all better than a USB connection.

I'd be curious to see how this whole ipod thing shakes out, especially as DD points out,fewer moving parts to introduce noise, jitter.

I do agree I'd like to have someone from Naim tell us why no ethernet connection on the DAC so it acts as a streamer. Is there an engineering issue which degrades the overall performance of the DAC if ethernet added or some other reason.

Again I'd wait at this point. I'd hate to jump to a DS device etc... and then find out in a month that Naim's solution actually makes sense, is easy to use, and has better performance.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
In five years' time people will look back at the USB DAC phenomenon and be scratching their heads...

In 5 years time wont the iPod look very different as well?

I am slightly confused here....

USB is bad, but only when used in ways Naim is not. USB DACs will be obsolete in 5 years time (funny)??? But yet they put USB connectivity on the Uniti, HDX and the NaimDAC. Then go so far as to center the DAC around a portable hard disc player that have a typically short lifespan, and are ridiculously priced for what they are. No one will argue that Apple products aren't way overpriced.

Officials from and representing Naim, claim that no one wants computers in the listening area, then put exactly that with two hard drives in their flagship DA product, the HDX.

People here are clamoring for a streamer???? Why? I dont get it. I would much rather put all of that R/D and purchase price into the DAC and output stages. Then use any number of options to get the music to the DAC. Personally, some kind of Cat5 connection would be great. I have never understood the Linn streamers and have prayed Naim would avoid that route. I dont want to pay thousands for the ability to stream. At that point aren't we all going to be debating over and wanting "audiophile" routers, and hard drives? Is there such a HUGE difference between the streaming bits of a DS and that of an Airport or Squeezebox?

But nevertheless, people want Naim to make a very expensive computer component, so Naim gives you guys a streamer. But they jam a radio, CDP, amps, pre, and the kitchen sink in there as well. Unless for a second system, or for someone completely uninitiated, it has no use to the current flock.

I am having a hard time figuring out exactly what is going on.
But if the Naim DAC is the shit, I will just get a long SPDIF cable and move the PC as far away as I can.

Leave the computing to the computers and playback to the hifi. Connecting the two need not be so expensive nor complicated. I like a huge separation of church and state here.

anyway....
Thinking about picking up the USB Lavry more than ever. Very simple.

-p

quote:

I do agree I'd like to have someone from Naim tell us why no ethernet connection on the DAC so it acts as a streamer

No, no, no, no ... please no networking junk in the Naim DAC - just a DAC please. If folks want networking then that can go in another box. To make an Ethernet port do anything useful, you'll need the software layers above it such as TCP/IP and then you'll need more software to interface this and so on .... I really don't need or want any of this stuff.

I agree mostly with Patrick's post except the bit about Apple and the last line, of course.

Let Apple and Logitech et al do the computer stuff and Naim concentrate on the music bits - i.e. the DAC.

ATB Rotf

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
Leave the computing to the computers and playback to the hifi. Connecting the two need not be so expensive nor complicated. I like a huge separation of church and state here.

Amen.

I see how one can separate those two.

A CD player is like a decoding computer with a lot of computing going on.

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
A CD player is like a decoding computer with a lot of computing going on.

Yes but readily accepted by everyone as a suitable piece of hifi. Perhaps spinning HDs will be regarded in the same light someday.

-p

quote:

Thinking about picking up the USB Lavry more than ever. Very simple.

Go for the DA10 and a decent interface. The DA11 USB implementation is nothing special which is a shame.

James

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
Perhaps spinning HDs will be regarded in the same light someday.

But I am.

The only difference is there are a lot more *external variables* that need to be addressed to make it into a commercially viable product.

I am not surprised if Naim has a HD based playback exceeding the performance of CD555 already in their lab.

I think some are getting confused with all these new technologies for music playback. I think the separation between computers and hifi is becoming completely artificial.

The DAC is the only piece of gear that remains free of all these changes. The rest of the music server chain is "computer based".

Once you assume it you can work for improving the weak points of computer playback and of course take advantage of what computer new technologies brings (SSD for instance). IMO if you are Naim you have no option and you have to invest R&D in computer based gear. In that sense I think HDX is a brave initial effort.

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
I see how one can separate those two.

A CD player is like a decoding computer with a lot of computing going on.

Exactly. I believe this is why quality CD players are so expensive. Separating decoding from playback "gives to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's" which greatly simplifies the process.

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
Is there such a HUGE difference between the streaming bits of a DS and that of an Airport or Squeezebox?

Yes, there is.

IMHO, Linn and Naim do the same mistakes, just from the opposite direction.

Naim builds a DAC, which isnt able to stream.
Linn builds a Streamer with a DAC, but forgot the digital inputs.

There´s absolutely no need to further increase box count here and - as Naim is telling us for many many years - transfering a digital signal between two boxes does decrease the sound. Cinch is not designed to transport HF signals either.

brgds..TC

quote:

Naim builds a DAC, which isnt able to stream.

That's no mistake, it is exactly what was needed - a state of the art DAC: assuming the production model lives up to anticipation. A streaming DAC I do not want or need; an optional add-on streamer for those who crave such a thing might be an idea though or perhaps just use a Logitech device for that purpose? A DAC with embedded Windoze or even TCP/IP software was not something I wanted.

ATB Rotf

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
I agree on the whole with PC's & ROTF remarks, but if the DAC is supposed to be the hub in our listening rooms (and not the product range in a Naim brochure or a full Naim system they seem to be aiming at) then it should be fully capable of hooking up to a wide range of PC's, Macs, sound-cards, etc. Like it or not, a good proportion of people buying the DAC will be using a computer based source, and a good proportion of these will be Mac users. The omission of a firewire input seems a bit short sighted, and I know a lot want other inputs.

Allen - a firewire input seems entirely reasonable - I've always preferred firewire to USB - it is the Ethernet interface that I did not want on the DAC as it starts to become a streamer and that adds complications I'd sooner avoid. The Uniti and HDX do that for those who want that function.

IMHO it is essential the DAC is computer agnostic and will work with any computer source as well as other transports. Personally, I would never knowingly buy anything from Microsoft, so I look for free-world solutions, but I know others like their PCs (although you can run AmigaOS on PC hardware and hopefully Chrome OS soon) - PCs should be sold with no OS and the consumer should be given the option of Windoze or something better.

ATB Rotf

ROTF,

Sorry, dont get your point. Any DAC is full of software. Adding some ethernet/streaming communication really is the smallest and least difficult bit. Connecting a PC to the music set is much more dangerous, because it introduces noise and often grounding issues.

Please go to a dealer and audit a DS versus a Squeezebox both digitally into the same DAC. I´m pretty sure you´ll understand then, what I mean.

Maybe Naim could offer the streaming functionality as an option. Some customer buy it immediately with the DAC and the others can upgrade after they heard the crap with cheap streamers

I suppose one bottom line of this discussion is the fact that there is not THE perfect solution for everybody. Hence it´s crucial to stay open and flexible. For some people even a HDX might make sense - although I havent met one yet...

thx n brgds..TC

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
PCs should be sold with no OS and the consumer should be given the option of Windoze or something better.

ATB Rotf

Well that is an easy one. You can easily build a PC for pennies then install whatever OS you want. Try doing that with a Mac!!!

Remember, PCs can be anything you want them to be.... and available by many means. Build it yourself, buy one from Dell or HP, buy one from them and modify etc....

Macs are Macs, by Apple, and you have no options.

quote:

Originally posted by yeti.fro:
ROTF,

Sorry, dont get your point. Any DAC is full of software.

What???????? Do you mean hardware?