Is there going to be a Naim Digital Streamer?

There never is a one shoe fits all solution. I'd actually like to hear more about Naim's philosophy with respect to how they handle the issues involved in computer based audio than exactly what the exact products will be.

Naim's brass is sharp and there have to be reasons why they have chosen the direction they have gone and the steps they've taken thus far than to just say they are ignoring what the forum customers want. I would like to just hear it stated clearly.

Despite comments to the contrary PC/Mac based audio into a DAC is not all that people are saying. This is my opinion from what I've personally heard thus far and it's a lot.

The Lavry experiments showed me alot. This has nothing to do with whether I like the Lavry or not, but it was clear that the PC/Lavry was far inferior to the PC/TC K8 (firewire)/Dac setup. There are just so many variables to effect playback. So if a $300 piece is needed to improve your playback from the PC to the Naim DAC I don't see this as a major issue.

The ipod solution seems interesting for direct input control and wireless streaming to the DAC. I'd be interested to see how this works.

BTW, I'm listening to my HDX as I write and I cannot hear the drives. In fact, the only time I hear the drives working is AFTER performing a rip and the data is updated into the system. Otherwise I don't hear the thing at all, even when sitting right next to it, so I don't see why all the complaints about the noise. My tablet PC is louder than the HDX when it's in cooling mode.

quote:

BTW, I'm listening to my HDX as I write and I cannot hear the drives.

I don't think it is about audible noise that you can hear from your couch. With the amount of effort that Naim has spent to isolate that, you'd better not hear a thing.

What has stopped me from considering the HDX is the thousands of dollars included in the box to overcome the twin monsters inside that needn't be there in the first place. Which induce mechanical vibrations, electrical noise, thermal impact and acoustic noise.

Naim being Naim has spent heroic efforts to overcome the above gremlins and issued white papers that I won't ever understand.

All of which you have paid dearly for with the purchase of the box.

But whatever genius effort, time and money they have put down, can only approach the result of one very simple action - take them out and just not have hard discs in the very first place.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:

quote:

I do agree I'd like to have someone from Naim tell us why no ethernet connection on the DAC so it acts as a streamer

No, no, no, no ... please no networking junk in the Naim DAC - just a DAC please.

Spot on ROTF.

Why is this becoming so f*@!*!* complicated...?!

2 things are needed. A DAC. And a streamer.

The DAC should be JUST and ONLY that, a digital to audio convertor. Should be a plain black box (none of these stupid iPod control buttons), with a spread of input types on the rear (perhaps with one optimised input for Naim streamer link), a switch or two for sample rates and DIN outputs to Pre...If there is anything on the front panel, then perhaps a input selection button....Nothing more, nothing less. A pure DAC doing solely one job, in the Naim tradition, like a PSU or amp. Designed very much with use with the accompanying streamer but can be used standalone.

The Streamer should be the interface. A robust and ALL-ENCOMPASSING software platform and UI, along with an extended range of inputs than the DAC, including LAN and perhaps even WiFi. iPod too. Along with necessary audio issues, I believe real attention should be paid to UI and control issues here. Bring back the Flash remote, restyled & updated for the '20s. If not, then make the software open-source and/or release a Naim App. To make an obvious, if crude, comparison here, Naim should be aiming for the audiophile equivalent of Apple's ATV....and actually, taking that forward, you could see where this really could go.....This really should be the Naim HUB.



Yes, we can go elsewhere for the streamer/interface - and people have been and, lets be clear here Naim, increasing ARE. To a degree, I see the argument folks here have made about this and not to be too hung up on 'all Naim' (and personally I have little issue using my ATV for now, especially as there is scant HD auidio content available)...But, come on, we wouldn't all be here if we were not big Naim fans...Many of us want all Naim systems and there are many reasons for such...

What seems to be coming and in development on the DAC, from the dribbles of info thus far, is a very mixed up & confused product....I'm all for cross-fertilisation and 'thinking different' (thanks Apple), but it has to be right, clever and curling one into the top corner of the net if it is to have any real success.....

quote:

Macs are Macs, by Apple, and you have no options.

My MacBook Pro can run Amiga OS without problem, but then so can a PC. I'd just like it if the local stores asked the consumer when he or she bought a new computer Do you really want Windoze or something better? I guess this will happen when Chrome OS takes over; I can hardly wait and will be advising all my customer to switch as soon as they can.

Most people use Windoze because it comes on the PC, it doesn't give other systems much chance to break in to the market. Never understood why the monopolies committee allowed it. It killed off the likes of Commodore despite the clear superiority of Amiga OS - not that Commodore were anything, but dreadful to deal with.

With Apple is is more understandable as you are buying the hardware and software as a package from one company. I do like their products in general - especially HyperCard

ATB Rotf

quote:

Why is this becoming so f*@!*!* complicated...?!

I agree Steve - I should know my way around IT, but I'm finding the simple task of listening to new music is becoming ever more complicated. Perhaps I should give up on new bands and just play the old records/CDs.

If Naim used Linux/Unix instead of Windoze and published an API then I'd write programs as I'm sure others would and we could share them. Windoze is too complicated.

Rotf,

So the monopoly Apple has with their OS is acceptable because they are selling both together?

It is not Microsoft's fault that Dell, HP, and all of the other manufacturers choose to bundle Windows with their computers.

You can very easily and very inexpensively build your own, or have it built for you, with any OS you like! Just go down to any computer supply store, or service location and ask.

Bitching about Windows being included in almost every mass marketed PC is like complaining that your car shouldn't include an engine, and you should be able to put whatever you want in it.

Just build your own computer, have it built for you, or buy a Mac. Buying a Sony or Mac from Best Buy isn't even close to your only option. It is simply the easiest and most visible.

If you work at/for a decent size company, there is a high probability that someone would be happy to help you out.

Lastly, it cracks me up that you despise Microsoft so much but are willing to use a Google OS. Google will then OWN all of the information you possibly have. Just as they do now with Gmail, Google website searches, Google phones etc... They are quickly becoming the most powerful empire in the world with ALL of your contacts, calendars, emails etc. Now you want to give them direct access into your computer?

Do you not understand that anything you do in the Google world becomes their intellectual property? I am not a conspiracy theorist but, they scare the hell out of me. Every time you search they log the info. Every single email sent and received is theirs for whatever they deem fit.

It wont be long before Google basically runs the world with its monopoly on information.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
I agree on the whole with PC's & ROTF remarks, but if the DAC is supposed to be the hub in our listening rooms (and not the product range in a Naim brochure or a full Naim system they seem to be aiming at) then it should be fully capable of hooking up to a wide range of PC's, Macs, sound-cards, etc. Like it or not, a good proportion of people buying the DAC will be using a computer based source, and a good proportion of these will be Mac users. The omission of a firewire input seems a bit short sighted, and I know a lot want other inputs.

But what you've currently chosen doesn't have these things either. If it's good enough, people will find a way to make it viable for them as you have. There are lots of ways to do so. It seems that as long as it's source is bit correct and quiet, the results should be all that they could be, whatever that is. To offer a firewire input, it would still need to be controlled by a local computer which others here that currently use there DAC this way seem to now have a problem with. It's not a server and I don't think any of us expected that when informed of it's pending introduction. AES/EBU, firewire, or USB offers no real advantage if the SPdif input is insensitive to jitter. Perhaps the noise involved with many computers was a consideration in not doing so. They tried to resolve the interface of a nonserver product in a very consumer friendly way without compromising the overall performance for the more advanced user. Whether they accomplished this remains for audition but there seems to be a lot of nits being picked. Of course some wanted different things from it but that would be true regardless of it's construction. Nothing is for everyone and putting a server inside may have limited the DAC itself in some way. Probably better to just wait and see how it can be made to work in an individuals environment.

Hi,

As the originator of this thread I asked if they were going to make a streamer, not a DAC.

I am really surprised at Naim, I mean a DAC, is that not the thing that Linn brought out last CENTURY?

Come on Naim, keep up with the times, I asked about one box, a streamer, not having to buy two boxes an outboard DAC and something that will stream my music into the DAC.

As for the HDX, having the hardware drives inside it just in unreal, I bought my drives for my NAS less than one year ago, 750gb ones, now I can buy 1500gb ones, for the same money! So Naim put a 400gb one in an HDX and think that is enough. Wait two years and the drives will be making such a noise you will want to place the device outside the room.

Let be honest, Naim missed the boat with the streamer and I can see why people who understand what streaming music is all about are going to Linn to buy a single one box solution.

As I have said, all I want is a streamer, made by Naim to work with Naim equipment.

Remember people use their NAS drives not just for music, we keep video, pictures and other files on the server, that is the beauty of using an external NAS, it is not limited to keeping music but it can be used in conjunction with your music system, so that all you have is a streamer in your music room to access the music on your NAS. One box, get the music into the pre amp and play music better, easier and with the ability to upgrade your storage without the need to go near your HiFi.

Does anyone not see the huge potential in what Linn have achieved, or are we being talked into a solution that Naim want not what the users want?

Cheers

John

quote:

Originally posted by John Campbell:
Does anyone not see the huge potential in what Linn have achieved, or are we being talked into a solution that Naim want not what the users want?

John, agree with you 100%. Just curious, do you happened to be a Slim Devices user?

See my post in the other Naim Digital Streamer thread. Part of Linn's success is riding at the back of Slim Devices' proven platform.

Companies like Naim and Linn has a captive audience due to its strong brand loyalty and good sound. It really does not take much to produce some black boxes that sell like hot cakes.

Hi,

Yes I have a Logitech Duet with a Linn Numerik.

Not in the same league as a Linn Sneaky or a Majik, but very good, and so easy to use.

Now Linn have got a a few front ends able to be used with their systems they are away and running now.

Cheers

John

See I guessed right.

Doesn't this show Naim that people who use the Squeeze platform are a bunch of satisfied customers, with a product that works and works well? And is basically the the guinea pigs for Naim, except these guinea pigs survived and strived, and lived to tell the story?

Hi,

Well I bought the Duet after I had my Linn DS, so had not used the slim devices platform before I had Linn DS.

Just wanted to try a Duet with my Numerik to see if it was as good as the Linn stuff, it is good, but not on a par with any Linn DS.

Remember that when Linn brought out their LP12 TT there was a learning curve associated with using it. So the use of a streamer in a system will have its own learning curve as well.

Cheers

John

If they bring out a uPnP streamer NAIM don't actually have to develop much software - all that open-source stuff that Linn and others have developed for the DS should work fine... How much longer will NAIM customers tolerate being locked in to a product range, but locked out of the rest of the world?

What Naim needs to do ... my view.

It's very clear (from what has been demonstrated) that the Naim DAC due for release will NOT have FireWire OR USB OR any netwrok streaming ... is that a big deal ... not in my opinion.

We hear countless times how dealers are there to support us. So what they need to do (in collaboration with Naim maybe) is to find some good devices - from the pro and audiophile markets - that will bridge the gap. These wont be the only devisee that will do the job, but we could then know that if we originally buy from Cymbiosis, then move to the south and TomTom becomes our dealer, that TomTom will know about the devices we use for linking.

So how about it Naim - test some devices and give us and your dealers some advise as to what is going to work well. The ideal would be if they could license some products and re-box / rebadge them (at a modest markup), but just testing and advising would work well. Devices such as the Tascam US-144 for USB connection, the TC Konnect 8 for 24/96 and M-Audio ProFire 610 for 24/192 FireWire connections. These devices exist already - or go to CEntrance and license their USB Technologuy like BelCanto and so many other firms have. Naim don't need to reinvent the wheel, but presenting us the information would make the Naim DAC more usable for computer users and stop reviewers writing it off because it doesn't have USB / FireWire ports.

For Streaming you have choices too - Sonos, Squeezebox and Apple AirTunes all support RBCD quality which from all accounts is re-clocked properly (possibly using buffers) within the Naim so don't write them off. A Transporter (or possibly the new Squeezebox Touch) will also add 24/96 support. And before anyone comments on the cost of the Transporter - how much do you think a Naim Streamer will cost??

I can see the appeal of an all Naim system, but don't be clammering for an all-in-one box IMO when separate boxes will do it all so well. Sorry if this post is too sensible ... but hope it helps in people's minds.

Eloise

Hi,

go and open a Sonos or a Squeezebox, there´s not much in it. Then get rid of box, power supply, analog and digital output stages, DAC etc and you are left with only 3-5 chips.

There´s absolutely no reason for Naim to not include this in the DAC. Hardware costs are probably less than €10,-, hard- and software development has already been done for HDX and Uniti and by sticking to the UPNP definitions. So basicly they could offer the streaming functionality at no cost.

Alternatively Naim could offer the streamer as an addon module for the Dac, similar to the DAB module for the n-Vi. Sell it for €400,- and make a couple of hundred percent margin. This would increase revenue and customer satisfaction, so definitively a win-win situation. Customers would still save money, have a seamless solution and could be sure it works properly. People not wanting it, just dont buy the module. If technology changes, Naim can offer a new module, maybe with WLAN.

On the other hand a list with "Naim authorized" streamers is almost impossible to maintain. Keep in mind that tests would need to be done by Naim with all versions of a streamer, both hard- and software. Most streamers probably get new hardware twice a year and a couple of new software releases.

Sonos is no solution, because it doesnt support more than 48/16. Squeezebox is no solution because it´s flimsy and demands Squeezecenter. Apple is no solution, because they dont support FLAC and are not open.
Only real option probably being a Linn DS... spend at least €2400, because Naim is not willing to spend €10,- for an integrated solution??? Great!

brgds..TC

Well streamers are less of an issue than computer interfaces IMO ... if Naim could encourage their dealers to support specific third party interfaces that could do a lot to getting the Naim DAC more widely accepted as a computer DAC, without having to spend money on developing hardware and software, checking it out with literally thousands of computer hardware combinations, etc.

Just my thoughts anyway.

There appear to be several options already, just not USB:

1. SPDIF direct computer to computer
2. Toslink direct c/c
3. Separate sound card (external/internal)direct to SPDIF or BNC adapter. (eg M-audio)
4. Bypass computer sound card and use Firewire device. eg TC K8

PS: I believe that JS from Promusica has already given several forum members a tutorial on how to set up a K8.

There are many options to do what people have been asking about to use a computer to the DAC. Naim just hasn't provided a direct streaming port.

quote:

Originally posted by yeti.fro:

Based on my auditions, the Klimax DS is absolutely on top, followed by Akurate DS, Majik DS, T+A MP1250, Logitech Transporter. I havent heared the new T+A MP1260 yet, but a friend prefers it to the Majik. It can be controled by Kinsky and also has 2 digi inputs, not bad. The HDX being on a similar level than an Akurate.

Since there have been a lot of discussions and comparisons with Linn's DS players; Linn has/will launch a new type of power supply for all (almost) products, called Dynamik. The early gossip (so take it for what its worth) says that the improvement is roughly one step up in the hiearchy, i.e. the Majik DS comes up to a level similar to an Akurate DS, and the Akurate DS is claimed to be rather close to a Klimax DS. Again, just initial rumours, but still rather exciting.

So it looks like it will be a very interesting year, for both Naim and Linn fans, with some fantastic new products comming.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
if Naim have sussed a near perfect Toslink connection then that's great,

If they have, they must be looking into the future. The demo units rolling around dont even have the toslink hooked up.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

quote:

Originally posted by js:

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
I agree on the whole with PC's & ROTF remarks, but if the DAC is supposed to be the hub in our listening rooms (and not the product range in a Naim brochure or a full Naim system they seem to be aiming at) then it should be fully capable of hooking up to a wide range of PC's, Macs, sound-cards, etc. Like it or not, a good proportion of people buying the DAC will be using a computer based source, and a good proportion of these will be Mac users. The omission of a firewire input seems a bit short sighted, and I know a lot want other inputs.

But what you've currently chosen doesn't have these things either. If it's good enough, people will find a way to make it viable for them as you have. There are lots of ways to do so. It seems that as long as it's source is bit correct and quiet, the results should be all that they could be, whatever that is. To offer a firewire input, it would still need to be controlled by a local computer which others here that currently use there DAC this way seem to now have a problem with. It's not a server and I don't think any of us expected that when informed of it's pending introduction. AES/EBU, firewire, or USB offers no real advantage if the SPdif input is insensitive to jitter. Perhaps the noise involved with many computers was a consideration in not doing so. They tried to resolve the interface of a nonserver product in a very consumer friendly way without compromising the overall performance for the more advanced user. Whether they accomplished this remains for audition but there seems to be a lot of nits being picked. Of course some wanted different things from it but that would be true regardless of it's construction. Nothing is for everyone and putting a server inside may have limited the DAC itself in some way. Probably better to just wait and see how it can be made to work in an individuals environment.

JS
I hear what you say, if Naim have sussed a near perfect Toslink connection then that's great, most Macs and PC soundcards will have a SPDIF and USB / firewire may not be necessary in these circumstances. The one other big advantage is that the toslink connection does break any risks of earth looping, very important as we know with Naim systems.

I have ordered a Konnekt 8 to explore the firewire side of my Mac Mini over the current core audio output to mini-toslink. My thinking is that, even if my DA10 gets replaced by the Naim DAC, the firewire out of the Mac Mini will still be viable. This is, of course, if the audio output from the Mac is improved by the K8

Any tips?

With the MAC, I'd just get it to run with the main buffer set to 512 if you have 24/96 material and the safety buffer at setting 1 to start. If you're using a different player than ITunes it will get more tweeky. I actually use an older version of the software that isn't as user freindly because I can get a better result from more settings options that are less universal. It's still not perfect but it can be quite good overall. I don't recall the MAC panel but in your case, there's probably no benefit from anything but what's supplied.

Things like this do everything most here are asking for and more. Just use the dig out.
http://www.whathifi.com/Review...gitech-HDX-1000-1TB/

AllenB - I'd be really really interested in your findings - re Konnekt 8. I've been toying with the idea of the Konnekt 8. This whilst waiting to see what Snow Leopard does to iTunes before making the call on the Amerra software.

Still delighted with the Lavry DA10 - initial experimentation with Amerra shows that it has a lot more to offer - and I want to investigate / understand limits of this DAC v.s. the source/interface before looking at Weiss or Naim DAC's have to offer in comparison.

Eloise - would you be active on a certain computer forum?

Certainly agree with your sentiment. However these solutions seems over "featured" for what I want; i.e. don't want / need / another pre-amp or DAC option just a really high quality firewire / usb --> toslink / AES capability to feed Lavry or future DAC. That said the cost isn't high - so might as well have a go.

Certain hope NAIM have nailed the TOSLINK interface!! That would be cool.

Cheers

Richard

Allen

How much memory have you installed? I suspect it needs a minimum of 2Gbyte. There is a definite improvement in my setup with the demo version - but I'm wondering if a better step would be firewire via Konnekt8 first (also cheaper).


re Snow Leopard. Big focus on efficiency and code clean-up - not so much new features. The OS should be a lot snappier. Possible implication lower jitter in core audio? Possibly. So want to check this out before making a call on the Amerra stuff.

Cheers

Richard

One thing worth doing is turning off unused features - spotlight, widgets etc. Just added 4gb into my mini (from the US as its not a sanctioned upgrade for the 2008 model mini ) - better for Amarra.

James

James - notice an improvement with increased memory?

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
Bitching about Windows being included in almost every mass marketed PC is like complaining that your car shouldn't include an engine, and you should be able to put whatever you want in it.

Not really, more like being forced to use the same brand of diesel.

quote:

Just build your own computer, have it built for you, or buy a Mac.

I use a Mac and Amiga.

quote:

If you work at/for a decent size company, there is a high probability that someone would be happy to help you out.

I dream of the day I'll retire; I work with computer networks all day every day.

quote:

Lastly, it cracks me up that you despise Microsoft so much but are willing to use a Google OS. Google will then OWN all of the information you possibly have.

Well not quite, only the stuff I give them.

quote:

Just as they do now with Gmail, Google website searches, Google phones etc...

What's Google phone ... not seen one of those.

quote:

They are quickly becoming the most powerful empire in the world with ALL of your contacts, calendars, emails etc.

I write my contacts in an address book and use a paper diary for a calendar

quote:

Now you want to give them direct access into your computer?

No, just want a simple computer optimised for web browsing

quote:

Do you not understand that anything you do in the Google world becomes their intellectual property?

That's not really true.

quote:

I am not a conspiracy theorist but, they scare the hell out of me. Every time you search they log the info

Yes, but all they know is the IP address of the TOR server I use

quote:

Every single email sent and received is theirs for whatever they deem fit.

Now that sounds as bad as hotmail, I'll check out for that - can they decrypt SMIME. If you wouldn't send it on a postcard then don't send it by e-mail. Hope you don't use online banking: show me a secure online bank and I'll introduce you to a real live Martian.

quote:

It wont be long before Google basically runs the world with its monopoly on information.

Everybody wants to rule the world. Well not me - couldn't be bothered, but everybody else.

Larry Page is a really nice guy - the type who never forgets his mother's birthday - now how many forum members can say that.

Don't worry Patrick, I have personal reasons for detesting the makers of Windoze; this is not the place to discuss them - suffices to say I'd never knowingly buy any of their products for personal use (that's the reason the HDX is not for me). You either trust Google with your data or you don't - choice is yours. IMHO they are much better than Grates' lot. All my dealings with Apple, and there have been many, have been really good - I've no complaints and would thoroughly recommend Apple products. All my dealings with Commodore in my early days in the industry were dire, but I still think the Amiga is the best home computer ever made.

So I would love to see Naim adopt the Slim Devices open source software rather than UPnP - it's up to them if they do. Though my next attempt at computer audio will be to audition the Naim DAC fronting a Logitech source and am hoping this will be what I'm looking for. I have no interest in ripping CDs, but would like to listen to on-line music sources in something approaching CDX2 quality.

ATB Rotf

Apologies if you or any other forum members work for MS.

ATB Rotf