Is there going to be a Naim Digital Streamer?

@Aleg:

No, that's not too much to ask, but your distinction between a streamer and computer is semantic. I already have that set up with an Apple TV. I don't see Naim producing a box that can compete with that and the Sonos of the world unless they want to get into the razorblade business. Maybe they do and will announce a streamer in development once the DAC is released. However building a streamer is A LOT more than just making a super high quality box as is the case with a DAC. There's the software development, user interface and support infrastructure that goes along with a streaming device. Based on what I know of Naim, that doesn't sound like the business they're in.

Naim is taking stabs at computer tech with the HDX, the Uniti and Naimnet I guess but what I have seen of those devices is not convincing. I may be alone here, but the prospect of having to wait on Naim for firmware updates and deal with their approach to UI design is not really the relationship I want to have with the company. I guess to me a Naim streamer means thinking about Naim as a computer company which is not something I'm comfortable with. There's a reason I didn't buy an Apple Hi-Fi after all.

quote:

Originally posted by Naijeru:
the prospect of having to wait on Naim for firmware updates and deal with their approach to UI design is not really the relationship I want to have with the company. I guess to me a Naim streamer means thinking about Naim as a computer company which is not something I'm comfortable with. There's a reason I didn't buy an Apple Hi-Fi after all.

Amen my brother....

quote:

Originally posted by Naijeru:
@Aleg:

No, that's not too much to ask, but your distinction between a streamer and computer is semantic. I already have that set up with an Apple TV. I don't see Naim producing a box that can compete with that and the Sonos of the world unless they want to get into the razorblade business. Maybe they do and will announce a streamer in development once the DAC is released. However building a streamer is A LOT more than just making a super high quality box as is the case with a DAC. There's the software development, user interface and support infrastructure that goes along with a streaming device. Based on what I know of Naim, that doesn't sound like the business they're in.

Naim is taking stabs at computer tech with the HDX, the Uniti and Naimnet I guess but what I have seen of those devices is not convincing. I may be alone here, but the prospect of having to wait on Naim for firmware updates and deal with their approach to UI design is not really the relationship I want to have with the company. I guess to me a Naim streamer means thinking about Naim as a computer company which is not something I'm comfortable with. There's a reason I didn't buy an Apple Hi-Fi after all.

Funny that most people seem to be using the AppleTV not as a video device per se, but as a media aggregator–a device that happens to have built-in Wi-Fi, a hard disk (!) and a low-power PC.

But I think it's a fair bet to say that nearly every source or control component (except the Aro tonearm) that Naim makes utilizes software–so it'd be a safe bet that software, and the folks who design it, is (are) such an important part of the equation that cannot be so easily dismissed out of hand.

AV products fall into this category, and based on the experiences of others who are suffering with other manufacturers' software issues, this is an arena that every high-end audio company must function within (or become insolvent).

Existing (and extensive) experience with computer-focused music server companies has demonstrated the need for an actual audio company to be involved in the process, if you want a product that is listenable (Transporter, anyone?). There is nothing less relevant than a poor-sounding, obsolete piece of embedded computing.

You may not be so easily convinced–but the reality is that software developers are the new tool-and-die makers of the manufacturing sector.

quote:

Originally posted by Naijeru:
@Aleg:
No, that's not too much to ask, but your distinction between a streamer and computer is semantic.

@Naijeru
I know it is more or less a semantic difference. But I don't want all the other stuff (HDU's, oversized boxes, fan's, poor shielding, etc) that comes with 'normal' computers in my room and near my HiFi.

The streamer doesn't even have to be a Naim, just as long as it is 'approved' by Naim to be used with their forthcoming DAC's.
What I require is a box that just has to be dedicated for its job, with nothing else added to it than what is strictly necessary.
I have this setup now, only with low-cost just-to-try-it-out equipment. I know it can be much better when designed by Naim. And that's what I'm waiting for.

-
Aleg

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
You may not be so easily convinced–but the reality is that software developers are the new tool-and-die makers of the manufacturing sector.

Software developers may be the tool and die makers for a manufacturer like Naim, but for computer products software developers are the manufacturers. There is a very important difference between customer facing software in a Sonos and software like the control system for a CD player. In a streamer the product is the software, not the hardware. I agree that software is increasingly important in all sectors, but the suffering you mentioned with other manufacturers is exactly what I am concerned about with Naim and have no interest in experiencing. I have the same standard of excellence for software as I do for hardware and I don't think Naim, or any audio manufacturer for that matter, is currently up to the task.

Just look at the Naim website for example. It is rudimentary at best and still uses a ridiculously obsolete Groupee message board. Am I supposed to trust this company to build devices that interface with my computer systems on a software level?!!! No way, and Naim is one of the better ones. Most websites for audio companies are absolute garbage. I do not want that kind of amateur hour in my audio chain. As it is, the Naim website is fine. The forums work and I can browse products on the site. That's all I require from a hi-fi manufacturer, but if I were to buy a streaming product from them I'd expect a lot more, especially at Naim prices. Had I bought an HDX I'd be pissed at Naim's level of support. Where is the dedicated product support section? Where is its FAQ? Its message board? Can I group the products I own into a profile? How do I find out if there are updates and how do I get them? Do I have to use a special website just for HDX owners? That would suck, as I sure wouldn't remember it when I'm at work or checking out the site on the go. I understand the HDX has a website you can use to administer the system. Based on the Naim Audio website I would NEVER buy an HDX even if it were eight dollars. I realize I'm not the target market for an HDX, but the handling of that device kills my interest in a streamer or any other kind of computer based product from Naim.

I think people are underestimating the huge undertaking that a streamer is especially given what's currently available. A streamer has to do a lot more than put out a high quality audio signal. It has to seamlessly integrate with the customer's other digital components, be easily upgradeable to handle the latest codecs and provide a pleasant user experience for both the novice and power user. That's a task an order of magnitude greater than a DAC because it requires very sophisticated user interface design and software development. I get it, the idea of a box that takes data from my system and does what Naim does is very seductive. If I were Naim though, I'd take a wait-and-see approach to streamers because the space is so volatile right now. It's better to hang back, let everyone else sort out the hard stuff in streaming and then swoop in when they're reasonably confident they can get the software part right and deliver the mind-blowing audio experience they are known for.

quote:

Originally posted by Naijeru:
Just look at the Naim website for example. It is rudimentary at best and still uses a ridiculously obsolete Groupee message board. Am I supposed to trust this company to build devices that interface with my computer systems on a software level?!!! No way, and Naim is one of the better ones. Most websites for audio companies are absolute garbage. I do not want that kind of amateur hour in my audio chain. As it is, the Naim website is fine. The forums work and I can browse products on the site. That's all I require from a hi-fi manufacturer, but if I were to buy a streaming product from them I'd expect a lot more, especially at Naim prices. Had I bought an HDX I'd be pissed at Naim's level of support. Where is the dedicated product support section? Where is its FAQ? Its message board? Can I group the products I own into a profile? How do I find out if there are updates and how do I get them? Do I have to use a special website just for HDX owners? That would suck, as I sure wouldn't remember it when I'm at work or checking out the site on the go. I understand the HDX has a website you can use to administer the system. Based on the Naim Audio website I would NEVER buy an HDX even if it were eight dollars. I realize I'm not the target market for an HDX, but the handling of that device kills my interest in a streamer or any other kind of computer based product from Naim.

I think you're confusing the marketing side with the engineering side–also, there are a wide variety of resources NOT available to end-users that you don't see. (One assumes a certain level of technical expertise that enables concise communication of issues without having to explain minimal-concept ideas.)

It is not unusual for embedded products to have limited-access support, once you understand the liability issues at hand in products beyond a $300 streamer.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
I think you're confusing the marketing side with the engineering side–also, there are a wide variety of resources NOT available to end-users that you don't see. (One assumes a certain level of technical expertise that enables concise communication of issues without having to explain minimal-concept ideas.)

There is no "engineering side" and "marketing side". My point is that it's all the same. Every point of contact with the company is an opportunity to make an impression and a place where the company's service will be judged. A website, whether public or private is a piece of software and a reflection of their commitment to software development. Even if I have no access, as a potential customer I should see product specific resources. I should understand how the ownership experience will work. If this can be expected of a $300 streamer, it is absolutely necessary "beyond" one.

quote:

A website, whether public or private is a piece of software and a reflection of their commitment to software development.

I disagree–having done development on both, at various points in my life. It's incredibly utopian to expect that the same force would be equally applied to both tasks (a good example of this is the Logitech site, relative to the old Slim Devices one), given limited resources.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
...having done development on both, at various points in my life.

Same here. Still do in fact.

quote:

It's incredibly utopian to expect that the same force would be equally applied to both tasks (a good example of this is the Logitech site, relative to the old Slim Devices one), given limited resources.

Isn't the sound quality that Naim is able to extract from mere bits of metal, plastic and rubber "utopian"? I'm not suggesting that equal force is necessary, just a recognition of priorities and what is required to be successful in a given endeavor. In this case, a great website is not necessary to indicate a great sounding product because those are not overlapping skill sets. However, a great experience with a website (both as a shopper and a customer) is one of several valid metrics for judging a company's ability to deliver a great computing product, in this case a streamer. A website is often the beginning of a relationship that involves interactions with dealers, products, manuals, road shows, customer service, software updates, press releases etc should that person decide to become a customer. Don't you think each one of those things merits consideration, and that a new product should be introduced with careful attention to how each of these elements may be affected by that product and how those effects can reflect back onto the product? The recent case of the DAC appearing at road shows without the ability to be hooked up to a laptop, it's most likely partner, is a perfect example of Naim dropping the ball in this regard. Hey, it happens.

Resources are often blamed for not addressing these issues but often the true resource that's lacking is thought. Too many people think of things in compartmentalized terms such as devices, marketing, software etc rather than seeing that they are all merely facets of the relationship with the customer. As customers become more and more savvy with digital devices, they will tolerate less sloppiness from manufacturers on all fronts. The pressure of having to keep up with the multitude of sophisticated devices in their lives has customers clamoring for simplicity and fun experiences. This only increases with the amount of money one is willing to spend. Thus a company's performance will no longer be judged merely on how well it can build a widget, but how well the whole experience of selecting, purchasing, using and maintaining that widget enhances people's lives. I'm not saying it's easy, but increasingly it is the standard for being successful. Fortunately these sorts of things have kept me gainfully employed such that I can consider Naim electronics!

quote:

Originally posted by Naijeru:
Fortunately these sorts of things have kept me gainfully employed such that I can consider Naim electronics!

Maybe you should just leave it at that. People spending $10K to over $100K go to dealers, not web sites, to buy their wares.

If you judge a product even slightly on the website, you have your own issues to work through.

Getting off-topic here but. If it was a fancy Flash based site that took longer to load you (and/or many others) would simply bitch about that.

I (we) spent well over $500 on dinner last night. We had some wonderful wine, and some of the best food in Portland. I just checked and this amazing place has no website. refreshing.

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
Maybe you should just leave it at that. People spending $10K to over $100K go to dealers, not web sites, to buy their wares.

So what are we all doing here then? If that were true these boards would be empty. It is possible to do both.

quote:

If you judge a product even slightly on the website, you have your own issues to work through.

Missing the point.

quote:

Originally posted by Naijeru:

So what are we all doing here then?

Mental masterbation comes to mind. Sussing out particular/specific issues. Looking for advice. Camaraderie, etc...

the one thing we surely aren't doing is deciding if we want a Superline based on the web site design? If we were, you wouldn't own a single Naim box.

Given the fact that this is extremely important to you, and clearly you exist out on the fringes of opinion on this, your argument falls on its face by the fact that you buy, and own Naim, and participate in this forum despite Naim's shortcomings as a tech company.

Am I missing the point? Probably. It is quite easy to miss when you don't know what it is.

quote:

Just look at the Naim website for example. It is rudimentary at best and still uses a ridiculously obsolete Groupee message board.

quote:

If it was a fancy Flash based site that took longer to load you (and/or many others) would simply bitch about that.

Hey, I'd just settle for a website that was up to date and is advertising products that I could actually go out and purchase...!

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
Am I missing the point? Probably. It is quite easy to miss when you don't know what it is.

In order to not miss the point, I suggest paying attention to the topic at hand since that is what my comments have been in reference to.

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

Maybe you should just leave it at that. People spending $10K to over $100K go to dealers, not web sites, to buy their wares.

If you judge a product even slightly on the website, you have your own issues to work through.

Getting off-topic here but. If it was a fancy Flash based site that took longer to load you (and/or many others) would simply bitch about that.

I (we) spent well over $500 on dinner last night. We had some wonderful wine, and some of the best food in Portland. I just checked and this amazing place has no website. refreshing.

Which place, OT?

Lots of very good points raised here and I agree entirely that a streaming device is going to be very difficult to build and at a price above offerings by apple/logitech etc will have to have a pretty f***ing good front end. Streamers are about the user experience.

With the wealth of great free software such as PLEX, XBMC etc out there as well its going to be a struggle. In this market your logo probably won't suffice.

One other thing this type of thing is not a dealer thing. Don't take it personally dealers but it the attempt at marrying traditional hifi selling routes with modern computing technologies will at some point go completely tits up. Great websites with FAQ, set up instructions a support route and technical forum is a must.

Which I believe is the point Naijeru is making.

quote:

Originally posted by garyi:
... will have to have a pretty f***ing good front end. Streamers are about the user experience.

I'm not sure about this.

Naim can always license good software if it finds some to its likings.

But in my low-cost streamer I now run MPD (music player deamon). That is the only part actually running in the streamer. I control this streamer from the outside using an mpd-client. These mpd-clients are what actually deliver the user interface and these mpd-clients are plenty about for all kinds of devices, like all types of mobile devices, Windows PC's, java clients, Web-applications, you name it and they've probably already got it.

This way it doesn't have to be the streamer that contains the user interface, it just needs to provide a standardised API for controling the basic features of a music player. The basic features of mpd are (source: http://mpd.wikia.com/wiki/Features ):

quote:

Basic Features All things you'd normally find in a music player plus:

Easy to Install
Easy to import new songs
Easy to configure clients to servers with Avahi/Zeroconf support.
Gapless playback (great for live albums and operas)
Crossfading support
Save, Load, and Manage Playlists
Minimal hardware requirements
Tested on many different operating systems
edit Support Input Plugins: AudioFile, ffmpeg, FLAC, MP3, MP4 Musepack, OggFlac, OggTremor, OggVorbis, WavPack

Output Plugins: ALSA, FIFO, JACK, OSS, OSX, libao, PulseAudio, Media MVP, Shoutcast/MP3, Shoutcast/Ogg Vorbis

Metadata: APEv2, id3v1, id3v2, MP4, Vorbis

Mixers: ALSA, OSS, Software Mixing

Protocols: TCP, IPv6, and Unix Domain Sockets

I think this type of setup can make things a lot easier. Being GPL software Naim can modify and expand on it.

Just my 2 cents

-
Aleg

quote:

One other thing this type of thing is not a dealer thing. Don't take it personally dealers but it the attempt at marrying traditional hifi selling routes with modern computing technologies will at some point go completely tits up. Great websites with FAQ, set up instructions a support route and technical forum is a must.

...assuming a minimum level of technical competence on the part of the retail client, which cannot always be assumed to be the case.

Likewise–there are plenty of large technology companies whose websites are "complete" in the support sense, but for which information is still scant for most significant issues (Linksys comes to mind).

There is a strong sense that IPv6 adoption should hasten an age of completely zero configuration with network devices, but again, the current situation is different, and one can choose to allocate resources to end-user training and setup materials, or to restrict this instead to retailer, integrator or installer support (where a minimum level of expertise is assumed).

Fact is, if a dealer can set a device up quickly, there is no reason a skilled end-user could not also do the same–vice versa, ease of setup makes it even easier to demonstrate and sell. There will always be a need for value-added support at the retail level.

Dave you know your shit and thats great as your are a dealer. I have no first hand experience but can every naim dealer claim your level of competence?

I'm not a dealer–I train 'em.

Interestingly enough (and I've said this in other posts), the retailers who have really stepped up to the mark on the digital music front are often the ones you'd least expect, technically competent but not computer geeks (music geeks, however, yes).

Currently spinning off ReadyNAS Duo / HDX:

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:


Which place, OT?

Higgins... downtown. Get the house cured charcuterie plate. mmmm lardo.

Higgins Restaurant and Bar (Portland, OR USA)

Guess they DID have a website...!

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
Currently spinning off ReadyNAS Duo / HDX:

I bet that sounds fabulous on the HDX.

While not my favorite, any Laswell is good to my ears.

With Burroughs and even DJ Spooky in there. Nicky Skopelitis is always welcome as well.

The remastered version has extra tracks at the beginning of the disc, and yes, a bit of WSB intoned is a good antidote to perceived reality.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
Higgins Restaurant and Bar (Portland, OR USA)

Guess they DID have a website...!

It is their site? It looks like a city search style site to me. Isn't it a yellow pages site? Anyway... not very flashy (pun intended), and I couldn't care less.