NBLs & DBLs and the reproduction of Scale

Posted by: Paul B on 10 February 2002

Can NBLs reproduce scale in the same manner as DBLs?

Presently, I feel that my SBLs (passive/52/250), fine as they are, do not reproduce scale, which I define (perhaps inaccurately) as dynamic range and bass weight (or combination). Note that I do not mean the size of image of individual instruments, although the entire breadth and depth of the sound is also a factor (I hestitate to say soundstage because that implies so many of the static imaging qualities of high-end US gear). I have heard active SBLs briefly but IMO scale was still somewhat lacking. Perhaps scale is directly related to bass reproduction. Here the DBLs obviously excel.

Comments invited regarding a definition of scale plus the abilities of NBL and DBL to reproduce same.

This issue was discussed previously on the old forum but at the time I wasn't entirely sure what was meant. Since that time I have heard both NBLs and DBLs but not enough to fully understand the capabilities of each. From my brief experience with DBLs, they certainly reproduce scale. Can the NBLs, too? Is a 500 necessary to reproduce scale with either of these speakers?

Paul

Posted on: 11 February 2002 by Adrian F.

quote:
Can NBLs reproduce scale in the same manner as DBLs?

Obviously not - or it would have been a replacemanet for DBLs!

I was in the same situaton as you. I heard both speakers, although not in the same setup. The plan was to go for new NBLs - but s/h DBLs went along, which I couldn't resist. Never looked back since

In size, weight, and design the NBL is the more reasonable and modern speaker. But sometimes I think, fun starts when it get's unreasonable and that's DBL terretory.

Can't get off that grin when music takes me away..

happy listening

Adrian

Posted on: 11 February 2002 by KC

Paul,

Do not underestimate the capabilities of the SBL. Recently I have had the opportunity to audition the SBL active with 2 500s! Yes, Two 500s. Hearing is believing. Unbeliveable that at the end of the product life of the SBL, its true potential is only just realised!!

Posted on: 11 February 2002 by ken c

i own active sbl's fed by 2x250 with supercap powered snaxo. the supercap/snaxo made the sound "leave" the speakers and move back a bit. therewas also a bit more weight and slam.

the system was also quiter -- to the extent that increasing the volume didnt make sound louder per se, it made the separation between instruments better. pleasing.

i would say all these changes are the ingredinets that add up to increased "scale", in my view.

but even in my active setup, i dont feel i have anywhere near the same scale as i had with bariks. the bariks can really kick ass. but its important to note that the sbl's in my view do a lot of things that bariks never could do that well -- subtle presentation of musical nuances. the sbl's are real masters in this regards.

in sbl mkii, i am looking for a speaker that retains sbl mk1 qualities, but improves "scale".

i havent listened to NBL's seriously -- no point -- i dont really like the way they look, especially that cloth drive cover. dbl's are a bit difficult for me to accomodate in my office.

sorry i didnt answer your question directly -- but since you mentioned something i am interested in - "scale" -- felt i should share my experiences of active sbl's.

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 11 February 2002 by Bob Edwards

Paul--

I personally do not think NBLs do scale quite as well as DBLs, although it is closer than I thought it would be. However, I do think NBLs do scale much better than SBLs. In relative terms, I'd say that NBLs are closer to DBLs than to SBLs.

SBLs powered by active or passive 500s are simply astonishing, and ameliorate the only valid criticism that I think is fair of the SBL, which is that they do not do scale and bass extension. Having heard NBLs and DBLs active with 3x500s I'd be hard pressed to pick one--DBLs have more bass and a bit more scale; NBLs had a somewhat more forward or lively presentation, which I loved.

Bottom line with scale, I think, is that you simply need to move more air and a larger speaker, all other things being equal, will be better.

Cheers,

Posted on: 11 February 2002 by Martin M

quote:
Can NBLs reproduce scale in the same manner as DBLs

In my experience, no. But depending on your musical taste and size of your room this may not matter. Small room and string quartets, not much difference. Leftfield full wack in a 34ft x 22 ft room, you'll know the difference.

The reason I ditched the SBL and went DBL is that one certain pieces of music (invariably some of my favourites) I would bounce the SBL's main drivers onto their end stops with bass notes. Putting 500s on a SBL will not solve my problems here. This kind of trashed the musical experience. The DBLs normally trash my ears before I trash them.

FWIW I listened to a NBL/500 system and it did little for me.

A 250 or 135s will drive a pair of DBLs to awesome levels easily. A 500 will the same, but with greater finesse. Having said that the NBL and DBL have mor finesse than a SBL when comparing like with like.

Posted on: 11 February 2002 by DAVOhorn

Dear All,

regarding NBL'S and DBL's.

The dbl has a sigle 15" drive unit in a box of a specific volume.
The cone has a specific square area. The maximum linear excursion of the diaphragm is as given.
So you can measure the max volume of air moved by the excursion of the drive unit.
You also have to look to the force factor of the magnet assembly and this gives you the speed at which the diaphragm will be moved by the signal.
So we have speed and volume of displacement of air.

Now the NBL has to my knowledge 2 off 8" drive units. I dont know the make but the dbl uses an atc 15".
So using the specs of the NBL drive unit you have the area of the diaphragm and the max linear excursion of the diaphragm and the force factor. You multiply the volume of air by 2 because you have 2 drive units and you then compare the volume of air of 1 15" and compare it to the volume of air of 2 off 8" and compare force factors.
I forgot to mention comparing the mass of the diaphragms as acceleration is proportional to mass
.The heavier the cone the slower the acceleration.

So this will give you the sense of power and scale relative to the 2 speakers, allowing a valid comparison.

So which is the winner?

If somebody knows the specs to the NBL 8" then it is possible to do the comparison. Note ATC do 4 versions of its 15" so one needs to know the model used.

Hope the above is of interest.

regards david