Finding the new in Beethoven

Finally found something in the Gardiner/ORR Beethoven set we don't like. The last movement of the 4th Symphony is just too damn fast. The players, especially the poor bassonist, are always on the edge of losing the beat - you can hear it.

Tonight we are going to try the DVD of Abbado/Berlin doing the 4th.

quote:

Originally posted by avole:
Mike,
I've just bought a 1977 LP of the 4th (Karajan) § any comments on this, and what sort of things should I be looking for? I've only just started listening to Beethoven.

I have this 4th, and have always enjoyed it.

I think the key is to try and pick out the themes (melodies) and listen for where they reappear. These are the bits you can sing to yourself. Was there a change in register (higher or lower in pitch)? is it modified in any way? If so, is it a rhythmic change (changing the length or distribution in time of notes), or did he change some of the pitches themselves. Perhaps you will hear a key change (the tonality taking on a different character). Try to hum each variation (or at least some) of a theme to yourself, paying particular attention to the differences.

Everything else is built around this.

This holds true for any Beethoven symphony, as he is the absloute and utter King of Theme and Variation.

From "all about Beethoven" on the web :

Allegro vivace – starts with a slow introduction which contains all the traces of the entire symphonic discourse, coming as a true synthesis of the symphony. The two themes are successively shown in the form of sonatas with great concision, the movement ending in a Coda which is nothing but a culmination and not a conclusion as we might have expected from his previous works.

Part II – Adagio – its main theme is of great musicality through the prime violins and it is followed by another theme with resonances from the previous symphony.

Part III – Allegro vivace – is full of life, structured on Beethoven’s scherzo principle, only much more improved. Thematic elements can be easily recognized from the introduction of the first part.

Part IV – Allegro ma non troppo – in the form of a sonata with a Coda in large dimensions, it expresses the same vital force and joy of life.

The freshness and spontaneity of the themes, the lack of tragic motives, the perfection of the form triggered the enthusiasm of his contemporaries. German composer Robert Schumann was comparing it to “a supple Greek girl, standing in between two giants from the West” , while Mendelssohn Bartholdy chose it to be performed at his first concert at Gewandhaus in Leipzig

In my collection are a couple of complete LvB-Symphony sets: Karajan ( two different recordings with the BPO ), Böhm ( VPO ), Solti ( CSO ), Zinman ( Tonhalle Zürich Orchester ), Wand ( NDR-Sinfonieorchester ) and Leibowitz ( RPO ).

All of these have their strengths and shortcomings.

But my favorite set at the moment is the recording of Roger Norrington with the Radio-Sinfonieorchester Stuttgart ( Hänssler No. 93.089 ). His " historical performance practice with modern symphony orchestra" seems to be very logical for me. Norrington follows strictly Beethoven`s instructions using fast tempi, so the music sounds vivid and buoyant in a Haydn-style way. Nothing to hear of the Wagnerian weight and darkness, typical of the late Romantic music but clearly not of Vienna classical music.
I am quite sure, that Norrington is meeting the intentions of LvB far better than most of his colleagues.

The sound of the Norrington recordings is also very good.

Best wishes

Manfred

I think the Norrington and Gardiner LvB sets are directly comparable in many ways, sharing a grounding in scholarship, in an Urtext / Original Instrumentation setting.

Gardiner's tempos in the Eroica are frequently blistering, and the orchestra, the fabulous ORR, never lose their passion or their composure. In particular, their sense of rhythm is stunning. I find them electrifying! You never tire of this sort of thing :-)

But in the final movement of the 4th, Gardiner pushes the ORR just beyond the pale, and the orchestra seems always on the verge of a complete loss of composure. The tempo serves the music well, but the players are breaking a sweat.

To be fair, they play faster than any Beethoven orchestra I've heard in 40 years.

So, nobody's perfect, as George says.

It's interesting to talk about different versions of these symphonies. Many excellent choices are available. But I think it important to do two things in unlocking the treasures in these symphonies :

1-Hum the themes in meter and in the right key. Hum it as you heard it.

2-Learn at least two different versions of at least a few of these symphonies.

My current feelings towards the Beethoven Symphonies is that the first two are studies, and the last seven are absolutely perfect examples of totally differing musical expression.

How is Norrington in the last movement of the 4th?

Just watched the Abbado /Berlin Symphony No. 4. It was done on tour, i believe in Italy(?)
The orchestra is about 40 strong.

The clarinet, flute and oboe achieve a remarkable unity in this piece.

Abbado's tempos are lively, and the final movement is blistering, but Berlin takes it in stride with a flawless composure. It's a good fit for this music.

This DVD is highly recommended.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:


My current feelings towards the Beethoven Symphonies is that the first two are studies, and the last seven are absolutely perfect examples of totally differing musical expression.

How is Norrington in the last movement of the 4th?

It is remarkable, how different Beethoven´s symphonies are. The first and second are brillant, but not far away in style from Haydn ( LvB`s teacher ) or Mozart.

The third, fifth, seventh and ninth are all dramatic, but nevertheless completely varying, the symphonies in between are more serene, so every new symphony from LvB was stunnig new sound for the audience of his time. I know no other classical composer, whose music was less predictable.

The last movement of Norrington´s forth ist rather fast and precise, but not hectic. I like it.

Best wishes

Manfred

quote:

Originally posted by Manni:
It is remarkable, how different Beethoven´s symphonies are. The first and second are brillant, but not far away in style from Haydn ( LvB`s teacher ) or Mozart.

The third, fifth, seventh and ninth are all dramatic, but nevertheless completely varying, the symphonies in between are more serene, so every new symphony from LvB was stunning new sound for the audience of his time. I know no other classical composer, whose music was less predictable.

The last movement of Norrington´s forth is rather fast and precise, but not hectic. I like it.

Best wishes

Manfred

Here is where I want to see our options for sharing music expand with new equipment purchases.

I would like to post Gardiner/ORR Eroica to this thread, and have Manni do the same with the Norrington 4th.

Then we would all know of what we were speaking.

If Naim could sell me a box to do that, I would spend $10,000 every 8 to 12 years on equipment, and $200-300 a month for the enabling service.

10,000 customers like that is a living.

Tonight we did the Beethoven's 5th Symphony, the Gardiner/ORR and Reiner/Chicago.

Not only is this the most familiar Beethoven, but there are more terrific performances of this work than any other.

If you have never listened to Beethoven before, this is the ideal place to start.

The 6th Symphony is the primary root of all romantic program music. This is where Berlioz and Mendelssohn spring from. Mahler and Bruckner owe this work a great deal as well.

Any doubts about Beethoven's capacity for melody are laid to rest by this symphony.

Gardiner/ORR do a terrific job here, but I have to say I've not heard a bad performance of this work.

From Wikipedia :

Form

The symphony breaks from the standard symphonic form of the time in having five movements, rather than the four typical of the Classical era. The movements are marked as follows:

1. Erwachen heiterer Empfindungen bei der Ankunft auf dem Lande (Awakening of cheerful feelings upon arrival in the country): Allegro ma non troppo
2. Szene am Bach (Scene at the brook): Andante molto mosso
3. Lustiges Zusammensein der Landleute (Happy gathering of country folk): Allegro
4. Gewitter. Sturm (Thunderstorm; Storm): Allegro
5. Hirtengesang. Frohe und dankbare Gefühle nach dem Sturm (Shepherds' song; cheerful and thankful feelings after the storm): Allegretto

A performance of the work lasts about 40 minutes. The last three movements are performed together without pause.

Description of movements

I. Allegro ma non troppo

First movement: allegro non troppo

The symphony begins with a placid and cheerful movement depicting the composer's feelings as he arrives in the country. The work is in sonata form, and makes use of seven distinct motifs, each of which is extensively developed and transformed.

An unusual aspect of the movement is the use of a microscopic texture, obtained by multiple repetitions of very short motifs. As Yvonne Frindle has said, "the infinite repetition of pattern in nature [is] conveyed through rhythmic cells, its immensity through sustained pure harmonies."

II. Andante molto mosso

Second movement: andante molto mosso

This movement, entitled by Beethoven "By the brook," is held to be one of Beethoven's most beautiful and serene compositions. It is in a 12/8 meter and the key is B flat major, the subdominant of the main key of the work, and is in sonata form.

At the opening the strings play a motif that clearly imitates flowing water. The cello section is divided, with just two players playing the flowing-water notes on muted instruments, with the remaining cellos playing mostly pizzicato notes together with the double basses.

Toward the end of the movement, in the coda that begins at measure 124, there is a cadenza for three woodwind instruments that imitates bird calls at measure 130. Beethoven helpfully identified the bird species in the score: nightingale (flute), quail (oboe), and cuckoo (clarinet).

III. Allegro

Third movement: allegro

This is the scherzo movement of the symphony, which depicts the country folk dancing and reveling. It is in F major, returning to the main key of the symphony.

The form of the movement is an altered version of the usual form for scherzi:

Scherzo | Trio | 2/4 section | Scherzo | Trio | 2/4 section | Scherzo (abbreviated)

In other words, the trio appears twice rather than just once, and each time it appears it is interrupted by a boisterous passage in 2/4 time (a similar 2/4 eruption is found in Beethoven's Hammerklavier sonata for piano). Perhaps to accommodate this rather spacious arrangement, Beethoven left out the normally observed repeats of the second parts of the scherzo and the trio. Theodor Adorno identifies this particular scherzo as the model for the scherzos by Anton Bruckner.

The final return of Scherzo conveys a riotous atmosphere with a faster tempo. The movement ends abruptly when the country folk notice that raindrops are starting to fall.

IV. Allegro

Fourth movement: allegro

The fourth movement, in F minor, depicts a violent thunderstorm with painstaking realism, starting with just a few drops of rain and building to a great climax. There is, of course, thunder, as well as lightning, high winds, and sheets of rain. From Beethoven's injunction that the symphony is meant to be "a matter more of feeling than of painting in sounds," one might guess that the movement depicts not just the storm itself but the feelings of awe and fear experienced by a witness to the storm.

The storm eventually spends itself, with an occasional peal of thunder still heard in the distance. There is a seamless transition into the final movement, including a theme that could be interpreted as depicting a rainbow.

Since the fourth movement does not resolve in a final cadence, and by the pattern of Classical symphonies would count as the "extra" movement among the five, critics have described it structurally as an extended introduction to the final movement, rather than an independent movement in itself. A precedent for Beethoven's procedure is found in an earlier work (1787), Mozart's String Quintet in G minor K. 516, which likewise prefaces a serene final movement with a long, emotionally stormy introduction.

V. Allegretto

Fifth movement: allegretto

The finale is in F major and is in 6/8 time. The first eight bars form a continuation of the introduction of which the storm was the main part; the finale proper begins in the ninth bar. The movement is written in sonata rondo form, meaning that the main theme appears in the tonic key at the beginning of the development as well as the exposition and the recapitulation. There is a very long coda; the "tail that wags the dog".

Like many classical finales, this movement emphasises a symmetrical eight-bar theme, in this case representing the shepherds' song of thanksgiving. The mood throughout is unmistakably joyful.

The coda, which Antony Hopkins has called "arguably the finest music of the whole symphony," starts quietly and gradually builds to an ecstatic culmination for the full orchestra (minus "storm instruments"), with the first violins playing very rapid triplets at the top of their range. There follows a fervent passage suggestive of prayer, marked by Beethoven "pianissimo, sotto voce"; most conductors slow the tempo for this passage. After a brief period of afterglow, the work ends with two emphatic chords.

Listened to Gardiner/ORR do Beethoven's 7th last night. It is a seamless, rhythmically tight reading that illuminates the voicing quite nicely.

One thing I am noticing is how beautifully Beethoven's sense of melody evolves from one symphony to the next.

The question and answer sequences in the third movement morph themselves into some beautiful counterpoint.

The fourth movement is fast and well controlled.

Tonight we'll give the Abbado/Berlin 7th a listen/watch.

From Wikipedia :

The Seventh Symphony is in four movements:

I. Poco sostenuto — Vivace
II. Allegretto
III. Presto: Assai meno presto (trio)
IV. Allegro con brio
Performance time lasts approximately 34 minutes.

After a long, expanded introduction in Poco sostenuto, the first movement is in sonata form and is dominated by lively dance-like rhythms.

The second movement, in A minor, is "slow", although the tempo marking is Allegretto ("a little lively"), making it slow only in comparison to the other three movements. This movement was encored at the premiere and has remained popular since. The ostinato (repeated rhythmic figure) of a quarter note, two eighth notes and two quarter notes is heard repeatedly.

The third movement is a scherzo and trio. Here, the trio (based on an Austrian pilgrims' hymn,[2] yet another example of applying poetry to music) is played twice rather than once. This expansion of the usual A-B-A structure of ternary form into A-B-A-B-A was quite common in other works of Beethoven of this period, such as his Fourth Symphony and String Quartet Op. 59 No. 2.

The last movement is in sonata form. Donald Francis Tovey, writing in his Essays in Musical Analysis, commented on this movement's "Bacchic fury". The coda contains an example, rare in Beethoven's music, of the dynamic marking ƒƒƒ (called fortississimo in Italian).

The work is known for its use of rhythmic devices. It is also tonally subtle, making use of the tensions between the key centres of A, C and F. The second movement is in A minor with episodes in A major, and the scherzo is in F major.

Mike, I'm reprising here something I wrote in another thread just in case you hadn't caught it the first time around.

One of my all-time favorite musical moments is the melodic/harmonic device Beethoven used in the primary theme of the Allegretto 2nd mvt of the 7th Symphony ... in the 12th bar of the second iteration of the theme, against the two static A quarter notes of the melody in the second violin part, the inner voice, played by viola and cello, takes prominence with two eighth notes - D falling through C# - resolving to a C natural quarter note. That's it: two eighth notes and one quarter, falling in half-steps ... still bringing me to tears to this day.

In harmonic terms, what Beethoven is doing here, of course, is approaching an A triad starting on the a suspended fourth (D), moving through the third (C#) of that A major triad, resolving to an A minor triad (C natural). So simple, yet profound.

Admittedly, it's somewhat of a simplistic reduction to describe major and minor tonalities in terms of joyful and melancholy, respectively, but as a wise teacher of mine once said, it's a fine place to start. The suspended fourth that starts this little passage connotes emotional ambiguity, which passes through joy (A major) and resolves into sadness (A minor). Again, somewhat simplistic, but to me it contains an essential kernel of musical-emotional truth ... in this one bar, with three changing notes played against one unchanging, Beethoven sums up the ambiguous, bittersweet nature of life that all humans experience.

All best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:


In harmonic terms, what Beethoven is doing here, of course, is approaching an A triad starting on the a suspended fourth (D), moving through the third (C#) of that A major triad, resolving to an A minor triad (C natural). So simple, yet profound.

Nice catch Fred :-)

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:


In harmonic terms, what Beethoven is doing here, of course, is approaching an A triad starting on the a suspended fourth (D), moving through the third (C#) of that A major triad, resolving to an A minor triad (C natural). So simple, yet profound.

Nice catch Fred :-)

Fred, I'm looking for this in the score. In which instrument does it first appear? About how many bars in?

I have to admit, as I peruse the score, it's the rhythms that grab me by the throat. I see the beat divided by 3 and by 4 at the same instant. Gardiner/ORR does this to the highest degree of precision. The colors that flow out of these rhythms are quite different from what I've heard on occasion. In Beethoven, a blurred rhythm distorts the harmony.

At any rate, whatever you can do to help me zero in on the sadness in this lovely movement will be appreciated.

I was brought up on Beethoven 7 played by Rudolph Kempe and the Munich Philharmonic, a mainstay of the World Record Club. Last Saturday I heard the Netherlands Philharmonic perform it under Yakov Kreizberg at the Concertgebouw Amsterdam. Tight rhythms and perfect phrasing breathed new life into this old warhorse. I have a copy of the Gardiner ORR CD, but its on the other side of the world so an immediate comparison is not possible.

btw My copy of the Gardiner ORR Eroica will go to a desert island with me along with Beethoven's Opus 131. But the quartets are another story

Mike, you're listening to the wrong conductor.

For those great middle symphonies you need a conductor called Kleiber. Doesn't matter whether the first name is Erich or Carlos. It must have run in their blood.

They make JEG sound silly by comparison.

Graham

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
Mike, you're listening to the wrong conductor.

For those great middle symphonies you need a conductor called Kleiber. Doesn't matter whether the first name is Erich or Carlos. It must have run in their blood.

Graham

To be honest, I haven't heard a bad reading of the 7th. I enjoyed the Gardiner/ORR a great deal, and last night's viewing of the Abbado/Berlin was entirely satisfying.

I even have a Guilini/Chicago reading of the 7th on LP, and it is quite competent.

i have some Beethoven/Keibler somewhere in the LP stacks. I'll dig them out tonight.

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Roberts:
btw My copy of the Gardiner ORR Eroica will go to a desert island with me along with Beethoven's Opus 131. But the quartets are another story

The Gardiner Eroica is a gem. Who do you prefer performing the Op. 131?

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:


In harmonic terms, what Beethoven is doing here, of course, is approaching an A triad starting on the a suspended fourth (D), moving through the third (C#) of that A major triad, resolving to an A minor triad (C natural). So simple, yet profound.

Nice catch Fred :-)

Fred, I'm looking for this in the score. In which instrument does it first appear? About how many bars in? ... whatever you can do to help me zero in on the sadness in this lovely movement will be appreciated.

Hi, Mike.

You'll see/hear the cello playing the C# to the C natural in bar 14 (and then again in bar 22), and finally getting to the full D-C#-C inner line in bar 38, where it's joined by the viola. And then appears many more times in various instruments.

Enjoy!

Fred

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:


In harmonic terms, what Beethoven is doing here, of course, is approaching an A triad starting on the a suspended fourth (D), moving through the third (C#) of that A major triad, resolving to an A minor triad (C natural). So simple, yet profound.

Nice catch Fred :-)

Fred, I'm looking for this in the score. In which instrument does it first appear? About how many bars in? ... whatever you can do to help me zero in on the sadness in this lovely movement will be appreciated.

Hi, Mike.

You'll see/hear the cello playing the C# to the C natural in bar 14 (and then again in bar 22), and finally getting to the full D-C#-C inner line in bar 38.

Enjoy!

Fred

Thanks Fred :-)

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Roberts:
btw My copy of the Gardiner ORR Eroica will go to a desert island with me along with Beethoven's Opus 131. But the quartets are another story

The Gardiner Eroica is a gem. Who do you prefer performing the Op. 131?

The ORR horn player deserves a medal for that performance.

Prefer is a difficult word for 131, I've heard it played many ways by different quartets. Very partial to the Lindsay Quartet's first version, but I'm travelling at the moment and chose to bring the softer Smetana quartet (Supraphon) on my laptop/ipod.

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
You'll see/hear the cello playing the C# to the C natural in bar 14 (and then again in bar 22), and finally getting to the full D-C#-C inner line in bar 38.

Enjoy!

Fred

I still have to "translate" bass clef when i look at it by reading it up a third (i'm a trumpet player) so when scanning a score i will miss things not in treble clef, unless i know where to look.

... wondering how many years of score reading it will take before that corrects itself.

maybe i should try a couple of months just following a single bass line?

I'm fresh from a listen of Beethoven's 7th Symphony, Carlos Kleiber : Vienna Philharmonic,
DGG 2530 706 on LP.

So far, I see two broad distinctions in the way this symphony is presented to listeners. Some conductors maintain a rock solid beat throughout a movement. Things change around "the beat" but it is the one constant from the first note to the last. I think of this as a "golden thread" that holds everything together. It is like the connection on a long distance call, from the composer (beyond the grave) to the listener (you). A disturbance in this connection soils the conversation :-)

Another way to fundamentally craft an interpretation is to view a work as being episodic, like a graphic novel. It is an interaction of characters.

I think music relies on the golden thread. I think episodic character-driven music is fundamentally still-born.

That is why the Kleiber Beethoven sat forgotten for decades in my LP stacks.

The Gardiner/ORR is worth another listen :-)

also :

Szell/Cleveland
Reiner/Chicago
Toscanini/NYPhil
Toscanini/NBC
Guilini/Chicago
Stokowski/London Philharmonic
and with some reservations Jochum/Concertgebouw
(they make mistakes)

and doubtless many dozens of others including Abbado/Berlin.

Or am I blowing smoke?

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
You'll see/hear the cello playing the C# to the C natural in bar 14 (and then again in bar 22), and finally getting to the full D-C#-C inner line in bar 38.

I still have to "translate" bass clef when i look at it by reading it up a third (i'm a trumpet player) so when scanning a score i will miss things not in treble clef, unless i know where to look.

But you can find what I pointed to, yes?

Fred

Beethoven is my hero, what a genius! He had alot of pressure on him taking off where Haydn and Mozart left, and he did it without copying them, and also in my opinion he took music to an even higher level than Mozart in some respects. Beethoven had a miserable life in some ways although of course in the music area he was very respected during his lifetime, had many powerful friends (Waldstein and some others) who supported him. I think his great willpower made him go into territories nobody could dream of, just listen to the Eroica symphony which when it was published must have seemed like one of the wonders of the world to music lovers. First time I heard it I was amazed, what a leap from his previous symphonies! Beethoven, you are not with us anymore but in my heart and many others, your memory and music lives as long as mankind.
(sorry for my english which might not be correct)

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
You'll see/hear the cello playing the C# to the C natural in bar 14 (and then again in bar 22), and finally getting to the full D-C#-C inner line in bar 38.

But you can find what I pointed to, yes?

Fred

[/QUOTE]

yes, Fred, thanks! i found it right away :-)