Finding the new in Beethoven
Posted by: mikeeschman on 12 May 2009
For the past several months, my wife and I have focused on Beethoven. Chief in our aims was to find fresh ears. We consumed piano sonatas, string quartets, the symphonies and the Missa Solemnis.
The Mass is beyond my capacity to write about. The sonatas and quartets are dense beyond the pale of mortals. But the symphonies were written for all of us.
In our studies, we made use of scores, multiple recordings, biographies and music history tomes, none of which will be "cited" here.
But here's how we're feeling about it ...
In the first symphony, you can hear Beethoven's voice, but he's not yet singing his song. He was very lucky to have studied with Haydn, who was the first great orchestrator. Haydn had a terrific orchestra on many occasions, and he learned well how to voice it to good advantage. Beethoven learned this lesson very well. This is demonstrated in the 1st Symphony.
In the second symphony, the first impression for me is "Beethoven - KING OF THEME AND VARIATIONS". He now has his voicing and a form, an architecture in the 2nd Symphony.
In the 3rd Symphony, Beethoven emerges fully formed. He has found his melodies. Rich in rhythmic impetus and capable of endless transformation. The orchestration goes far beyond Haydn, the voicing is far more expressive than that.
And the recordings I keep going back to are :
Gardiner/ORR
Stokowski/London (LSO)
Jochum/Concertgebouw
Reiner/Chicago
Tonight is for the 4th Symphony :-)
The Mass is beyond my capacity to write about. The sonatas and quartets are dense beyond the pale of mortals. But the symphonies were written for all of us.
In our studies, we made use of scores, multiple recordings, biographies and music history tomes, none of which will be "cited" here.
But here's how we're feeling about it ...
In the first symphony, you can hear Beethoven's voice, but he's not yet singing his song. He was very lucky to have studied with Haydn, who was the first great orchestrator. Haydn had a terrific orchestra on many occasions, and he learned well how to voice it to good advantage. Beethoven learned this lesson very well. This is demonstrated in the 1st Symphony.
In the second symphony, the first impression for me is "Beethoven - KING OF THEME AND VARIATIONS". He now has his voicing and a form, an architecture in the 2nd Symphony.
In the 3rd Symphony, Beethoven emerges fully formed. He has found his melodies. Rich in rhythmic impetus and capable of endless transformation. The orchestration goes far beyond Haydn, the voicing is far more expressive than that.
And the recordings I keep going back to are :
Gardiner/ORR
Stokowski/London (LSO)
Jochum/Concertgebouw
Reiner/Chicago
Tonight is for the 4th Symphony :-)
Posted on: 21 May 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by Starre:
Beethoven is my hero, what a genius!
Beethoven, you are not with us anymore but in my heart and many others, your memory and music lives as long as mankind.
That goes for me too :-)
Posted on: 21 May 2009 by u5227470736789439
quote:I still have to "translate" bass clef when i look at it by reading it up a third (i'm a trumpet player) so when scanning a score i will miss things not in treble clef, unless i know where to look.
... wondering how many years of score reading it will take before that corrects itself.
maybe i should try a couple of months just following a single bass line?
I would not call what you seem to be doing reading a score, so much as following the lines with little or no conceprtion of what the print means in a Florence Forster Jenkins [Google it as you so like the internet] style of "if it goes up in pitch it get higher up the page" sort way that can add precisely nothing to your understanding of the harmony and melodic shape you espouse as the only route into music.
Sorry to be a pedant, but if this what a score is for you then scrap them and listen, as you said in another response to me, as the music was intented, "addressed to the audience."
ATB from George
Posted on: 21 May 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
I would not call what you seem to be doing reading a score, ... if this what a score is for you then scrap them and listen, ...
ATB from George
Well I make no bones about it. I am in the process of learning to read scores. The attempt is breathing new life into my appetite for music. That seems justification enough to continue.
Somehow, your comments do not seem helpful. You prescribe rather than discuss : take these four pre-1940 recordings and you will get it, very much like a suppository, don't you think.
I want to be friends.
Bend a little my way.
I'll follow suit :-)
Posted on: 21 May 2009 by u5227470736789439
quote:Somehow, your comments do not seem helpful.
My comments were not intended to be helpful to you, but rather than to those who might believe you were a reader of Sir Donald Tovey rather than wilkipoedia.
ATB from George
PS:
I want to be friends.
Bend a little my way.
I'll follow suit :-)
Dear Mike,
I am a seeker after truth, and friends follow from a respect for that position. None other.
Posted on: 21 May 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:quote:Somehow, your comments do not seem helpful.
My comments were not intended to be helpful to you, but rather than to those who might believe you were a reader of Sir Donald Tovey rather than wilkipoedia.
ATB from George
George, where have I posted information from Wikipedia and not cited Wikipedia? We have a copy of Tovey, which I have looked things up in, but never read (my wife has, and for this forum I consult her), and to my recollection I have never referenced Tovey here.
Gee, you sure are pissy :-)
Posted on: 21 May 2009 by BigH47
Is there not some Bach too?
Posted on: 21 May 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:quote:Somehow, your comments do not seem helpful.
My comments were not intended to be helpful to you, but rather than to those who might believe you were a reader of Sir Donald Tovey rather than wilkipoedia.
ATB from George
PS:
I want to be friends.
Bend a little my way.
I'll follow suit :-)
Dear Mike,
I am a seeker after truth, and friends follow from a respect for that position. None other.
"A seeker after truth"; take a chill pill - that is totally out of control. We are talking about Music.
Posted on: 21 May 2009 by u5227470736789439
quote:George, where have I posted information from Wikipedia and not cited Wikipedia? We have a copy of Tovey, which I have looked things up in, but never read (my wife has, and for this forum I consult her), and to my recollection I have never referenced Tovey here.
Oh! I don't say say you are plagiarising!
But if I were interested in wiki as a serious source then I could search the reference myself as anyone halfwit could.
Read Tovey, read Donington, read Dolmesch, and then come forth with some truly useful and generally unknown insights and reference these to the scores for even greater interest.
Mike, the internet is a marvelous place to browse, but real autodidactism should be from the great printed references!
ATB from George
Posted on: 21 May 2009 by mikeeschman
:-)
Posted on: 21 May 2009 by BigH47
That'll be Bach's Pomp and Circumstance then, or did he write Singin' in the Rain? 
Posted on: 22 May 2009 by mikeeschman
Listened to Gardiner/ORR doing the 8th Symphony last night. It's a taut, rhythmic reading and I enjoyed it very much.
I am struck by how melody develops in Beethoven. Each succeeding symphony reveals more complexity and nuance.
I have next week off, and I think I'll use my monkey eyes to study this little symphony more closely.
The following excerpt from Wikipedia is dedicated to GFFJ, a tireless defender of truth :
The Eighth Symphony consists of four movements:
Allegro vivace e con brio
Scherzando: Allegretto
Tempo di Menuetto
Allegro vivace
It is approximately 26 minutes in duration.
First movement
First movement: allegro vivace e con brio
This movement is in the home key of F major and is in fast 3/4 time. As with most of Beethoven's first movements of this period, it is written in sonata form, including a fairly substantial coda. As Antony Hopkins has noted, the movement is slightly unusual among Beethoven's works in that it reaches its dramatic climax not during the development section, but at the onset of the recapitulation. To this end, the concluding bars of the development form a huge crescendo, and the return of the opening bars is marked fff (fortississimo), which rarely appears in Beethoven's works, but has precedents in the 6th and 7th Symphonies. This extravagance is made up for however, in the quiet closing measures of the movement.
The opening theme is in three sections of four bars each, with the pattern forte-piano-forte. At the onset of the recapitulation, the theme is made more emphatic by omitting the middle four bars.
Second movement
Second movement: allegretto scherzando
This movement is an affectionate parody of the metronome, which had only recently been invented (or more accurately, merely improved) by Beethoven's friend Johann Maelzel. Machine-created rhythm had already been parodied by Haydn in his "Clock" Symphony; Beethoven pursued the same impulse for the faster rhythm of the new metronome.
The metronome parody starts at the very beginning of the movement with even staccato chords in 16th notes (semiquavers) played by the wind instruments, and a basic 16th note rhythm continues fairly steadily through the piece. The tempo is unusually fast for a symphonic "slow movement".
The key is B flat major, the subdominant of F, and the organization is what Charles Rosen has called "slow movement sonata form"; that is, at the end of the exposition there is no development section, but only a simple modulation back to B flat for the recapitulation; this also may be described as sonatina form.
The second subject includes a motif of very rapid 64th notes (hemidemisemiquavers), suggesting perhaps a rapidly unwinding spring in a not-quite-perfected metronome. This motif is played by the whole orchestra at the end of the coda.
Third movement
Third movement: tempo di menuetto
A nostalgic invocation of the old minuet, obsolete by the time this symphony was composed. (A similar nostalgic minuet appears in the Piano Sonata Opus 31 no. 3, from 1802). The style of Beethoven's minuet is not particularly close to its 18th century models, as it retains a rather coarse, thumping rhythm. Thus, for example, after the initial upbeat Beethoven places the dynamic indication sforzando (sf) on each of the next five beats. This makes the minuet stylistically close to the other movements of the symphony, which likewise rely often on good-humored, thumping accents.
Like most minuets, this one is written in ternary form, with a contrasting trio section containing prized solos for horns and clarinet. The clarinet solo is of significant importance in that it was the first major example of a solo clarinet playing a written G6.
Fourth movement
Fourth movement: allegro vivace
This is the most substantial movement, in very fast tempo. It is written in a version of sonata rondo form in which the opening material reappears in three places: the start of the development section, the start of the recapitulation, and about halfway through the coda. This is the first symphonic movement in which the timpani are tuned in octaves, foreshadowing the similar octave-F tuning in the scherzo of the Ninth Symphony.
The fourth movement imitates the first in that the move to the second subject first adopts the "wrong" key, then moves to the normal key (exposition: dominant, recapitulation: tonic) after a few measures.
The coda section is felt by many listeners to be extraordinary, being one of the most substantial and elaborate codas in all of Beethoven's works. The coda has two particularly striking events. The harmonically out-of-place loud C♯ that interrupts the main theme in the exposition and recapitulation finally gets an "explanation": it turns out to be the root of the dominant chord of the remote key of F♯ minor, and the main theme is loudly played in this key. A few measures later, there is a stunning modulation in which this key is "hammered down" by a semitone, arriving instantaneously at the home key of F major.
The symphony ends in good humor on a very long passage of loud tonic harmony.
For anyone who cares, i include the edited wikipedia notes on form because I read them, and try to find the references in the score, and to hear them when I listen. It's just the short bits about the music itself. I guess I thought others might be interested to try hearing these things as well, and, if not, no harm was done :-)
I am struck by how melody develops in Beethoven. Each succeeding symphony reveals more complexity and nuance.
I have next week off, and I think I'll use my monkey eyes to study this little symphony more closely.
The following excerpt from Wikipedia is dedicated to GFFJ, a tireless defender of truth :
The Eighth Symphony consists of four movements:
Allegro vivace e con brio
Scherzando: Allegretto
Tempo di Menuetto
Allegro vivace
It is approximately 26 minutes in duration.
First movement
First movement: allegro vivace e con brio
This movement is in the home key of F major and is in fast 3/4 time. As with most of Beethoven's first movements of this period, it is written in sonata form, including a fairly substantial coda. As Antony Hopkins has noted, the movement is slightly unusual among Beethoven's works in that it reaches its dramatic climax not during the development section, but at the onset of the recapitulation. To this end, the concluding bars of the development form a huge crescendo, and the return of the opening bars is marked fff (fortississimo), which rarely appears in Beethoven's works, but has precedents in the 6th and 7th Symphonies. This extravagance is made up for however, in the quiet closing measures of the movement.
The opening theme is in three sections of four bars each, with the pattern forte-piano-forte. At the onset of the recapitulation, the theme is made more emphatic by omitting the middle four bars.
Second movement
Second movement: allegretto scherzando
This movement is an affectionate parody of the metronome, which had only recently been invented (or more accurately, merely improved) by Beethoven's friend Johann Maelzel. Machine-created rhythm had already been parodied by Haydn in his "Clock" Symphony; Beethoven pursued the same impulse for the faster rhythm of the new metronome.
The metronome parody starts at the very beginning of the movement with even staccato chords in 16th notes (semiquavers) played by the wind instruments, and a basic 16th note rhythm continues fairly steadily through the piece. The tempo is unusually fast for a symphonic "slow movement".
The key is B flat major, the subdominant of F, and the organization is what Charles Rosen has called "slow movement sonata form"; that is, at the end of the exposition there is no development section, but only a simple modulation back to B flat for the recapitulation; this also may be described as sonatina form.
The second subject includes a motif of very rapid 64th notes (hemidemisemiquavers), suggesting perhaps a rapidly unwinding spring in a not-quite-perfected metronome. This motif is played by the whole orchestra at the end of the coda.
Third movement
Third movement: tempo di menuetto
A nostalgic invocation of the old minuet, obsolete by the time this symphony was composed. (A similar nostalgic minuet appears in the Piano Sonata Opus 31 no. 3, from 1802). The style of Beethoven's minuet is not particularly close to its 18th century models, as it retains a rather coarse, thumping rhythm. Thus, for example, after the initial upbeat Beethoven places the dynamic indication sforzando (sf) on each of the next five beats. This makes the minuet stylistically close to the other movements of the symphony, which likewise rely often on good-humored, thumping accents.
Like most minuets, this one is written in ternary form, with a contrasting trio section containing prized solos for horns and clarinet. The clarinet solo is of significant importance in that it was the first major example of a solo clarinet playing a written G6.
Fourth movement
Fourth movement: allegro vivace
This is the most substantial movement, in very fast tempo. It is written in a version of sonata rondo form in which the opening material reappears in three places: the start of the development section, the start of the recapitulation, and about halfway through the coda. This is the first symphonic movement in which the timpani are tuned in octaves, foreshadowing the similar octave-F tuning in the scherzo of the Ninth Symphony.
The fourth movement imitates the first in that the move to the second subject first adopts the "wrong" key, then moves to the normal key (exposition: dominant, recapitulation: tonic) after a few measures.
The coda section is felt by many listeners to be extraordinary, being one of the most substantial and elaborate codas in all of Beethoven's works. The coda has two particularly striking events. The harmonically out-of-place loud C♯ that interrupts the main theme in the exposition and recapitulation finally gets an "explanation": it turns out to be the root of the dominant chord of the remote key of F♯ minor, and the main theme is loudly played in this key. A few measures later, there is a stunning modulation in which this key is "hammered down" by a semitone, arriving instantaneously at the home key of F major.
The symphony ends in good humor on a very long passage of loud tonic harmony.
For anyone who cares, i include the edited wikipedia notes on form because I read them, and try to find the references in the score, and to hear them when I listen. It's just the short bits about the music itself. I guess I thought others might be interested to try hearing these things as well, and, if not, no harm was done :-)
Posted on: 22 May 2009 by u5227470736789439
quote:It is approximately 26 minutes in duration.
That would depend on the tempi taken and the number of repeats played.
Every repeat may not be the best musical policy at every concert, depending on many circumstances, and not the least where the symphony is played in the programme.
Thanks for dedicating more "wiki" to me. I am touched that you should think to do such a thing.
ATB from George
Posted on: 22 May 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
Thanks for dedicating more "wiki" to me. I am touched that you should think to do such a thing.
ATB from George
Just trying to get a smile out of you, George :-)
Posted on: 22 May 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear Mike,
You made me smile with the happy thought that you are investigating my favourite Beethoven symphony - Number Eight in F!
ATB from George
PS: I will try to hunt out a link that tends to suggest that the slow movement is a canon of sorts!
Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMrv9fN9s_w
You made me smile with the happy thought that you are investigating my favourite Beethoven symphony - Number Eight in F!
ATB from George
PS: I will try to hunt out a link that tends to suggest that the slow movement is a canon of sorts!
Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMrv9fN9s_w
Posted on: 22 May 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Mike,
You made me smile with the happy thought that you are investigating my favourite Beethoven symphony - Number Eight in F!
ATB from George
PS: I will try to hunt out a link that tends to suggest that the slow movement is a canon of sorts!
Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMrv9fN9s_w
Thank you very much George, the YouTube segment is quite instructive.
From what I read, the 8th is a minor symphony, but what I hear, he is becoming more skilled with each effort. I love this symphony!
Please remember that what I write about on the forum are frequently things I'm just learning now. Excitement and enthusiasm are easily mistaken for cock-sure judgment.
And those old recordings take more focus than I would like. The recordings have to be listened into, to see past the recording artifacts. Sometimes that takes more concentration than I am able to muster.
Still, it's good to hear friendly sounds coming from your quarter. The forum wouldn't be the same without that :-)
I won't "wiki" the 9th. I have a week off, so maybe I can say something worthwhile on my own, with a little study :-)
Posted on: 22 May 2009 by u5227470736789439
