Four Mosques in New Zealand Vandalised.

You are absolutely right. However, let the Islamist terrorists realise that such acts of reaction are but an inevitable outcome of their crimes before they decide to commit their next atrocity. Let them realise also that they are hurting their own kind who also die in their acts of terror.

Their idea of "jihad" may indeed be the intention to incite hatred between Muslims and others, but let them also learn that that they are hated by all but themselves.

I just hope this absurdity doesn't spread.

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen B:
I just hope this absurdity doesn't spread.

Do you mean the vandalism and similar acts of pseudo-revenge?

Isn't this precisely the sort of action hoped for by the extremists? They want all muslims to be seperated from the "ungodly" Westerners and their "foul" influences.

Every attack on a muslim, or his place of worship, becomes the proof they need that the "ungodly" hate muslims and so must be punished. A nice little Catch 22 that ensures the power remains in the hands of the extremist religious teachers and their brain-washed devout followers.

Given the racist attitude of many europeans it may be that a personal attack on a young muslim is enough to trigger a search for a powerful ally to protect them from the big, bad world. He, or she, may turn to a street gang for strength and support in the battle with the enemy. But there are other sources of comfort.

Before the London bombing Danish radio was airing a long interview with a girl who left an extreme young muslim group because she didn't like the way the techings were being used. Reading the Koran endlessly was part of their methodology. Members of her familiy, still in the group, beat her when she left their influences behind and returned to "normal" european life.

It doesn't sound much different from christian fundamentalists groups' reinforcement methods. Endless re-reading of the bible and psalm books. With minute interpretation of every word and phrase. With the charismatic leader always on hand "to advise" on correct interpetation. That way lies madness.

Good post Nime.

The extremists thrive on division, de-humanisation and discontent. In the current climate the real battle is just just to 'carry on as usual' but to ensure that we break down religious/racial/ethnic division and stereotypy. Minority actions must never be assumed to be the norm of a community. Acts are committed by 'people' not races or religions.

Bruce

The pathetic small-minded bigots who vandalised the mosques in Auckland have displayed exactly the kind of reaction on which terrorism, in particular the kind of terrorism perpetrated supposedly in the name of Islam, thrives. Hatred fosters hatred, and as long as this is the case then there will be more atrocities the like of which we witnessed in London on Thursday.

However I would also emphasise that in no way are we certain that the London bombings were carried out by terrorists affilliated to al-Queda or any other such group, despite the fact this has been so widely suspected and implied here and elsewhere. It's one of the tragedies of situations like this that moderate Muslims who live in our supposedly tolerant Western societies feel so stigmatised by events like this which lead people like us to quickly and prematurely throw the blame at who we think is responsible.

Jon

Actually Jon, the "guesses" as to the culprits may be blamed on the websites claiming responsibility for the London bombings.

Nime,

Understood, and I am aware that there is at least one web-site where a group has posted a message claiming responsibility, but we have seen this before, after previous atrocities in years gone by, where previously obscure "terrorist" groups claimed responsibility in a desparate attempt to publicise their "cause" whatever that may have been.

I'm just trying to caution against kneejerk reaction before the necessary forensic evidence is obtained, is all.

Jon

To repeat what has been said before:

Only a small proportion of the world's population are muslims. Only a proportion of those are really devout. Only a small poportion of those are fundamentalists. Only a tiny proportion of those are extreme in their beliefs. Only a vanishingly small proportion of those are active terrorists.

So, on whose behalf do these last few act as they do?

My wife is of the opinion that terrorists would be terrorists whatever the cause. They can always find an excuse. I have no reason to doubt her usual wisdom.

It is interesting that the police are appealing for private mobile phone images and videos which might help in the search for clues as to the identities of the mass murderers of innocent people.

Britain (like it or not) is one of the most security-camera surveyed societies in the world. Yet these vast numbers of street cameras and other security cameras have not been enough to quickly solve the crimes committed here. Perhaps one day we will all have hands-free communication devices? With hi-res cameras permanently grafted to our foreheads.

It must be extraordinarily difficult to place undercover police, or other security personnel, inside such groups of extremists. Particularly if the stories of internal racism within the police force are to be believed. It would be difficult to find an officer with the required "qualifications" to infiltrate such groups. Yet another Catch 22?

Think of all the Mosques (& unarmed men & boys) destroyed not so long ago in Europe, where we all love to holiday Oh so often:


Fritz Von Lock em up on Pitcairn

When I hear of a report (fairly rare these days fortunately) of the Jewish Cemetary etc,(about 200 years old) here in Berlin getting sprayed with swastika's etc by so-called skinheads, their daft motives being fairly obvious one would assume ? though when I see regular reports of graveyards and stones being destroyed a desicrated by Yobs,Chavs or whatever you want to call them in ENGLAND, I find it quite difficult to understand where they are coming from ?

Fritz Von Off to Pitcairn with the lot of them

I think Nime has hit this on the head not once but twice in this thread. Totally agree.

Seconded, The Great Dane put it very succinctly indeed

Plus the fact that the Edgware Road has the highest Arab population in London

I have just returned from a very moving, emotional but ultimately reaffirming weekend in London. I attended a conference at the University of London, literally in the heart of the area that was bombed. I had to walk past the site of the bus bomb on a nightly basis.
What I observed and experienced was what I always observe and experience every time I visit London. i.e. people, Black, White, English, Irish, African, Asian, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Athiest simply getting on with their lives.
The fact that ordinary people of all nationalities and religions are likely to have perished in the explosions underlines the complete futility and self-defeating logic of the bombers.
I attended a moving vigil at the Friends meeting house in Euston where the victims of the bombs were commemerated. The ordinary people (including British and U.S. troops) whose lives have been destroyed by war in Iraq and Afghanistan were also remembered.
I saw people stand firm, not only against terrorism, but against those cynical politicians who would seek to divide us, exploiting such tragedies for their own political ends.
To idiots who would desacrate Muslim places of worship and seek to blame Islam I say this. Acts like those we witnessed last week are not carried out in the name of millions of ordinary Muslims. Just as millions of Western people, Christian and otherwise, told Blair and Fundamentalist Christian President Bush that their war was not being carried out in the name of the majority of people in the West.

How do you know that Mosque was not desecrated by a jihad group in order to antagonise the currently moderate Moslems

"Britain (like it or not) is one of the most security-camera surveyed societies in the world. Yet these vast numbers of street cameras and other security cameras have not been enough to quickly solve the crimes committed here."

it would appear you are wrong...again.

quote:

My wife is of the opinion that terrorists would be terrorists whatever the cause. They can always find an excuse.

Totally agree. As someone clever once said, there are always too reasons for doing something, the real reason and one that sounds good. Defending your religion sounds good, an interest in thuggery, violence and murder is the real reason.
John

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Lawson:
"Britain (like it or not) is one of the most security-camera surveyed societies in the world. Yet these vast numbers of street cameras and other security cameras have not been enough to quickly solve the crimes committed here."

it would appear you are wrong...again.

Surely not? The camera evidence may have been kept quiet or some time taken to find (or prepare) useful images or simply held back while the search went on for further bombers or their allies. I know little of London's surveillance cameras since I have visited the place but a few times and not for many years now.

I did mention suicide bombers earlier. And that the fourth bomber couldn't plant his bomb as planned due to problem on the Northern Line. Each act of attrocity removes one criminally insane member of their organisation from our world. I was also right about brain washing. These four *all* attended one or more of the thousands of Koran "schools" in Pakistan. Each exporting fundamentalist extremists direct to Iraq, Afganistan, Palestine and the rest of the world. The US paid one hundred million dollars to have these schools closed down by Pakistan's dictator. The schools remain and so does the dictator. The well-known terrorist training camps alongside the Pakistan/Afganistan borders (on Pakistani soil) also remained. Perhaps the hundred million went direct into buying arms, explosives and bomb training? Who needs enemies...?

BTW: Do please feel free to question or criticise my often-erronous opinions Jim. Hindsight often has the habit of being almost perfect. Real predictions are much more difficult (even for me).

Let us be thankful that the BNP (British National Party) is as loathed and derided as it is, being limited in its support to the 'intellectually challenged'. The thought of their having a figurehead with the 'charm' of Oswald Mosely makes my blood run cold.

quote:

Originally posted by Nime:
To repeat what has been said before:

Only a small proportion of the world's population are muslims. Only a proportion of those are really devout. Only a small poportion of those are fundamentalists. Only a tiny proportion of those are extreme in their beliefs. Only a vanishingly small proportion of those are active terrorists.

Nime,

It's really interesting how the mainstream perception on this subject differ to the Muslims. I've got a chance to discuss this with some fundamentalist muslim friends and they said the terrorists are not a small proportion of fundamentalist or even the devout muslims. The terrorists may be muslims but there's no way they can be devout or holding strongly to the fundamentals of Islam as terrorism has no place in islam. My friends suggest to read the koran as to validate their claims. Interesting but i've no time to read a hifi mag let alone the thick koran.

Sorry if you don't understand what i'm saying as my english is quite bad.

No shortage of books which simplify and make more accesible the principles of the Koran. Some also capture the beauty of some the text too. I'll check out one we have at home and post it here if anyone is interested.

Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by SaifulAJ:

Nime,

It's really interesting how the mainstream perception on this subject differ to the Muslims. I've got a chance to discuss this with some fundamentalist muslim friends and they said the terrorists are not a small proportion of fundamentalist or even the devout muslims. The terrorists may be muslims but there's no way they can be devout or holding strongly to the fundamentals of Islam as terrorism has no place in islam. My friends suggest to read the koran as to validate their claims. Interesting but i've no time to read a hifi mag let alone the thick koran.

Sorry if you don't understand what i'm saying as my english is quite bad.

'

Your message is crystal clear and your english better than many others here!

Unfortunately many religions have been corrupted over the centuries at the whim of those seeeking a vehicle to power or wealth. Such "new-thinkers" can always find devout converts and unquestioning followers. Reaching the minds of these converts is extremely difficult. They are often totally incapable of judging their own actions. Or resisting the corrupting influences and sometimes insane demands of their charismatic "control-freak" leaders in a strictly heirarchical group system.

Such converts seem to have a deep need to belong to a group with a strong belief which can often override all common sense. A leader seems to be essential to their circular, self-reinforcing thinking and beliefs. The converts' brains become simple sponges soaking up anything and everything told to them. They are devoid of conscience or the ability to judge their own thoughts rationally. They will always seek advice from above in their group heirarchy as they submit themselves endlessly to total mind control.

We have repeatedly seen all these effects in christian cults. They will move to dangerous new countries and continents and suffer great hardship there at the whim of the leader. They will willingly sacrifice their own children to a paediofile leader or submit themselves to degrading group sex. Or commit mass suicide. Or even take up arms and murder others and each other, including their own children.

And all this corruption is based on the teachings of a gentle prophet with a simple belief in love of one's fellow man?

Regards
Nime

When man believes he has a Gods eye view it always leads to tragedy.

Jacob Bronowski.

quote:

Originally posted by SaifulAJ:
It's really interesting how the mainstream perception on this subject differ to the Muslims. I've got a chance to discuss this with some fundamentalist muslim friends and they said the terrorists are not a small proportion of fundamentalist or even the devout muslims. The terrorists may be muslims but there's no way they can be devout or holding strongly to the fundamentals of Islam as terrorism has no place in islam. My friends suggest to read the koran as to validate their claims. Interesting but i've no time to read a hifi mag let alone the thick koran.

Sorry if you don't understand what i'm saying as my english is quite bad.

It would help if there were agreement on what was meant by "fundamentalism", which is not the case. When non-Muslims speak of "Islamic fundamentalism", they usually mean (to all intents and purposes) "Islamism". However, I have met Middle Eastern Muslims who described most or all Muslims as "fundamentalists", meaning not that they are Islamists but simply that they believe the Koran is the word of God.

There is a big difference between believing that the Koran is literally the word of God and believing that, therefore, every word of the Koran must be taken literally without interpretation or context.