Schubert
Posted by: Tam on 06 November 2006
quote:
Originally posted by pe-zulu:
I have to confess, that Schubert never was one of my greatest interests. Of course I know many of his works, and I find works like the third and fifth symphony as well as the Unfinished very appealing. And of course the Impromptus, but here only Edwin Fischer can do it for me. I have never made a systematical exploration of Schuberts piano sonates, -what I have heard, I find too loose in construction, just a collection of nice tunes. This is perhaps Schuberts strong side but also his weak side, compared e.g. to the eventful Beethoven. BTW I often have considered to acquire a complete set of Schuberts symphonies. This would have to be a small band version stressing the classical elements and not the romantic elements in the music. Because I find the roots backwards (yes to Haydn among others) to be the most decisive elements in the symphonies. It should be for Schubert what Mackerras` outstanding Beethoven set is for Beethoven. A propos: I have enjoyed Mackerras´Beethoven very much, (and still owe you a report about my impressions).
Dear Poul
I have just been working through
Colin Davis's box of the symphonies with the Dresden Staatsakpelle (all but 5, 8 and 9 are unknown to me, or nearly so, I have heard two of the others in a rather terrible concert a year or so ago), and have found it absolutely fascinating.
The extent to which he is influenced (the opening of the first screams Haydn, yet the rest is very much Schubert, others are dotted with bits of Mozart or Rossini). The only work so far that I've found at all disappointing has been the 6th (though it was late, so perhaps mood impacted). Interesting also how light on his feet Davis is (not at all what his Beethoven had led me to expect). Given the set is on Amazon for £10, you can't go far wrong with it. That said, I'm not sure it's small band enough for you - perhaps Abbado with the COE might be safe, but I do not know it. Speaking of Mackerras, he has a fine disc of the 8th and 9th with the SCO (this is a small band, though they do not always sound it). Mackerras has also done 5, 8 (the completed verison) and 9 on period instruments with the OAE (though I think it is difficult to argue that the SCO readings are not finer. The combination of Mackerras and the SCO is a special one.
As to the piano work, my introduction was from
Kempff. (Indeed, his mono survey of the Beethoven sonatas was one of my first classical purchases and he has ever since been one of my guiding lights in exploration of piano repertoire.) However, I don't think I really know his writing here well enough, I know the great D960 sonata backwards but little else. I suspect this is partly because it was the first thing in the set (somewhat ironically, perhaps) and I never really got past it. Some time later, I learnt that part of it was played at my grandmother's funeral when I was 4 so perhaps it got etched into my mind at an early age.
Regardless, it is probably my favourite piece of piano writing. I love the soft slow introduction and, until now, almost every account I come across falls by the wayside as you can't really out-soft Kempff. Not that
Brendel does, of course. But he does seem to have something to say, perhaps it's in his slightly faster tempi, that seem to hold the work together (it sometimes does not) in a really rather special way.
I'd recommend the Brendel disc to anyone for that alone. I have yet to listen to the other works, but even if they turn out to be unlistenable (which I doubt), it will still have been worth it.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 07 November 2006 by pe-zulu
Dear Tam
Thanks for the recommendations. We seem to share taste to a large extent, so I have already ordered the Davis set and the Kempff set from Amazon.uk. It is hard to refuse Amazons very favourable offer.
Regards, Poul
Posted on: 07 November 2006 by Haim Ronen
Dear Tam,
I have lots of Schubert, including Brendel playing the sonatas but none of his symphonies (as always, the large scale scare that I have).
There in nothing, in my mind, that captures the essence of Schubert's magic like his Piano Trios Op. 99 & Op. 100.
Best regards,
Haim
Posted on: 07 November 2006 by Tam
Dear Poul,
Hope they meet with your approval.
Dear Haim,
Have you heard the live Brendel disc I mention - if so, I'd urge you to check it out. It's right to mention the other chamber music, I'm fond of both the string and piano trios but have only the Grimaux/Beaux Arts two disc set from Philips which is very fine.
The string quartets are also rather special, and there's a rather good value box of the late ones from the Lindsays (though, as always with these artists, possibly not to all tastes).
Actually, I'd appreciate recommendations on boht - as always, chamber music (other than solo piano) is a rather thin area of my collection.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 07 November 2006 by Haim Ronen
Tam,
I have not heard Brendel's live recording. I will try to put my hand on it.
I just bought last week the 'Trout Quintet' for a friend who was taking a long fishing trip. For some reason he never heard of it before.
We have in Chicago the Humanities Festival going on for two weeks. The topic this year is: 'Peace & War'.
The closing event for the festival is going to be a performance of Messiaen's Quartet for end of time with the same musicians I heard two weeks ago.
Regards,
Haim
Posted on: 07 November 2006 by Tam
Dear Haim,
The only recording of the Trout I have (again a wonderful work) comes from Ades along with members of the Belcea quartet (and is coupled with his own piano quintet).
I must say, I'm envious of how much you seem to get the Quartet for the end of time out there. With any luck we'll get it at the Edinburgh festival next summer, but I do not hold my breath. And even if we do, last year, due to work, I wasn't able to go to nearly as many of the chamber concerts as I would have liked since they hold them during working hours.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 08 November 2006 by Big Brother
"...Schubert is the last problem of
interpretation."
Claudio Arrau
These days I would rather listen to Schubert than the Great Master of Bonn. Not sure why. It is very subtle, on its face almost naively simplistic, but underneath it all, there is a wealth of sadness, joy, and pathos.
The Scwarzkopf is not as great as I thought, many years ago, but it is a good sampler of Schubert's songs. Arrau is fascinating, the more so in the late music.
Many will find Toscanani driven, not me. Full of fire and passion, the last movement("Unfinished") played as one great, soulful arc.
Cordially
Big Brother
Posted on: 09 November 2006 by pe-zulu
quote:
Originally posted by Tam:
as you can't really out-soft Kempff.
Dear Tam
Yes, nobody can out-soft Kempff except Kempff himself. The difference between his two post-war Beethoven cycles is generally, that the mono (1952-55) is more extrovert expressive and the stereo (1962) more soft, stressing the pure beauty of the music, and underplaying the dramatic elements even more than in the mono cycle. I think both sets are well worth knowing. I have never compared the two cycles systematically. BTW I attended Kempff at recital in 1966 (yes, I was very young, but I remember him very well - he was extraordinary) playing four Beethoven sonates, and his interpretation seemed to me even more expressive than the mono, which I (at that time) already knew rather well, at least the sonates he played (15,18,23,24).
You made me begin to relisten to Brendels digital cycle. I got i about 1997 and didn´t like it. I found him affected and contrieved. But after Gilels (and trying to listen with your ears) he is a real relief, offering a personal and well considered reading. I haven´t heard but sonates 4,12,13,14,15,19 and 20 yet, but this is certainly a more impressive reading than his more middle-of-the-road Vox cycle. I understand very well why you prefer more personal interpretations.
Kindest regards, Poul
Posted on: 09 November 2006 by Chayro
Posted on: 09 November 2006 by Haim Ronen
quote:
Originally posted by Chayro:
Try Schubert for Two - Nice.
Chayro,
I have the other disc, Paganini for Two (with the same musicians) which is very good too.
Regards,
Haim
Posted on: 09 November 2006 by Haim Ronen
Another exceptional Schubert/Brendel.
Regards,
Haim
Posted on: 12 November 2006 by Tam
I spun a very interesting
disc yesterday:
Bought primarily (as will surprise noone who reads my posts) because it features Charles Mackerras and the Scottish Chamber Orchestra (whose readings of the 8th and 9th I have greatly enjoyed), this is something of a curiousity containing reconstructions of various symphonic fragments by Brian Newbould (who has previously finished the 8th, which Mackerras has recorded with the OAE on virgin - and fine though it is, his reading with the SCO amply illustrates why the work is best left as is).
The two sets of fragments, D615 and D708A are both rather unsatisfactory. They are played well enough, and the orchestrations are fairly convincing (both come from piano score only), however, especially in the 615, the fragments just stop, mid-flow, and one really has to wonder at the point of recording them as you're left wishing Schubert had carried on.
The so called 10th symphony, which Schubert was working on just before he died, fares better - this is partly because more of it is finished, also because he seems to have left more indication of orchestration. The notes suggest that the intention was to leave it a three movement work, I dispute this, as the third movement has a fair amount in common with that of the great C major and while, to start with, it feels as though it could be the finale, it doesn't end quite satisfyingly enough. However, the disc is probably worth hearing for this and it does give a tantalising hint as to what Schubert might have done after the 9th.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 26 November 2006 by pe-zulu
quote:
Originally posted by Tam:
Dear Poul,
Hope they meet with your approval.
Dear Tam
Having recieved the Davis set and having listened to it right through, I am surprised to experience, that I know all the symphonies very well on beforehand. Even no 9, which I know I haven´t heard but two times 35 and 15 years ago respectively. This tells me something about how "catchy" the music is. On the other hand Shuberts symphonies very often echoes the symphonies of the Vienna classical composers. The menuet of symphony 5 reflects Mozarts menuet from symphony 40 and the scherzo from Schuberts 6th symphony reflects the scherzo from Beethovens 7th symphony to mention a few examples.
The classical sonata is based upon the tension between contrasting musical themes and some development of the themes, and I do not really find much contrast or development in Schuberts symphonies, which rather consist of some nice tunes played in sequence and repeted according to the scheme, and in the end I find this a little boring considering the duration of the works.
I think the Davis set stresses the youthful and naive character of the music. It is fortunately concieved in a rather classical mood, and expertly played by the excellent if too large Dresdener Statskapelle. The cost is that the few signs of drama in the music is efficiently repressed, and make the music a little harmless listening. But all in all still value for money, considering the price.
Regards, Poul
Posted on: 27 November 2006 by Tam
Dear Poul,
I actually had a remarkably similar experiece with the set - in that works that were unknown to me (broadly speaking 1-4) seemed familiar. Similarly the echoes (the first is rather Haydnesque in the opening, though less so, I think, the later movements).
I do slightly agree with some of your conclusions. However, I think I would argue that Davis's approach serves the first four very well. Not, though, I think the 6th, or indeed 8 and 9 of which far finer readings exist (which really showcase their greatness - a marque which I don't think I would apply to the earlier works). Mackerras/SCO with 8&9 is really something, ditto, in the classical mode, the Erich Kleiber 9th or Furtwangler's wartime effort. I'm also rather fond of Rattle's recent Berlin reading, which I find unmatched in drama (though others will likely dislike for many of the reasons it appeals to me).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 09 December 2006 by pe-zulu
Dear Tam
I fully agree, that Davis does full justice to the early symphonies (1,2,3,4) - and no. 5 too, IMO. BTW I find no 4 and 6 to be the weakest from the part of Schubert, so I don´t think I shall investigate these further. And I own no 8 in the almost (for me at least) definitive version of van Beinum (did you get it, and if so - what do you think of it?). Davis´ no 9 on the other hand is an appealing encounter, stimulating my appetite for more interpretations of this symphony, so I think I shall end up acquiring Mackerras`no 9 (with no 8).
Concerning Kempff´s Schubert sonatas I listened recently to D 960 and the e-minor (don´t remember the Deutsch no). Yes - indeed beautiful, but too long in relation to the musical development. In between I realised, that I listened more to the outstanding interpretation, than to the music. I am not sure, that I ever shall get through the whole set, but if I don´t, it doesn´t matter.
regards, Poul
Posted on: 10 December 2006 by Earwicker
Brendel's last live recording of D960 makes a better case for it, although the piano is set back a way whereas Kempff is close. I quite like WK's 960, but Brendel arrived at a more propulsive view of the 1st movement's development section that works better, making it a bit less ponderous.
Posted on: 10 December 2006 by Earwicker
quote:
Originally posted by Haim Ronen:
Another exceptional Schubert/Brendel.
Indeed, but I STILL can't decide about Goerne...!
Posted on: 10 December 2006 by Haim Ronen
quote:
Originally posted by Earwicker:
quote:
Originally posted by Haim Ronen:
Another exceptional Schubert/Brendel.
Indeed, but I STILL can't decide about Goerne...!
Earwicker,
That is the only version I have. At times I wish Goerne would lose some of his power and sing in lower RPMs...
Haim
Posted on: 10 December 2006 by Earwicker
quote:
Originally posted by Haim Ronen:
That is the only version I have. At times I wish Goerne would lose some of his power and sing in lower RPMs...
I heard him do Schwanengesang and An Die Ferne Geliebte live with Brendel a few years back and was mesmerised; on disc, you should check out Fischer-Dieskau (with Brendel or Jorg Demus) or Schreier and Schiff for a more idiomatic 'sprachgesang' type approach... I think I'd take the F-D/Demus to my desert island. I think Goerne sometimes misses the point in the lied, it's as a Bach singer I most admire him.
EW
Posted on: 10 December 2006 by Haim Ronen
quote:
Originally posted by Earwicker:
I think I'd take the F-D/Demus to my desert island. I think Goerne sometimes misses the point in the lied, it's as a Bach singer I most admire him.
EW
Ew,
Thanks. I will check out Fischer- dieskau soon. We have not heard from you for awhile. Were you already on yor desert island..?
Haim
Posted on: 10 December 2006 by parmenides
I love Schubert music - I have two boxes with his symphonies - first one is sir Colin Davis, byt my favourite is Claudio Abbado with The Chamber Orchestra of Europe (for deutsche grammophon).
One of my favourite piano works is Kristian Zimerman plays Impromptus D899 and 935 (also for DG).
One of my fourite parts of Schuberts work are the string quartets. I have some recordings of Melos Quartett - please, let me know about yours favourite recordings of string quartets!
But in the 2005 yaer one of my favourite musician - Gidon Kremer - published a record with string quartet in g major (d887) in orchestration by victor kissine. it was published by ecm ne series number - 1883. It is one of my favourite cds and I play it almous every week (I have about 1500 cds, so its very often for me

.
Thanks for this tread, thanks for all recomendations!
Posted on: 10 December 2006 by lplover
Any opinions on how the Marriner/ASMF symphony set on Philips compares with the Davis/Dresden set that I have now?
Posted on: 10 December 2006 by Earwicker
quote:
Originally posted by Haim Ronen:
Ew,
Were you already on yor desert island..?
No, just keeping a low profile! Other - largely depressing - demands on my time.

EW