New to Vinyl

I can at least answer your fourth question as I also have a 102. You can use either internal or external phono stages. Internally the same phono board fits the 102,82 and 52 and in my humble estimation if it's good enough for the 52 then it's got to be good enough for my 102. The internal boards come in two models the 522 and 523. One is for high output moving coil and moving magnet cartridges and the other is for low and medium output cartridges. The internal boards are the least expensive route. Above this you have the external stageline which I believe needs its own power supply and next is the Prefix which was designed to be fit into the Linn Sonodek. The older model preamps like the 72,62 etc use a different internal board and the newer preamps only take external phono stages. You may want to search for a thread called "turntable pros and cons" as I was looking for the same info a few months ago. Looking for old vinyl can be a bit of fun too when you can buy it for pennies on the dollar.

Ihope my two cents worth has helped
#5

Fled,

Whats your budget for your turntable?

Regards

NB

Phil,
Turntables - The mainstream choices for TTs are probably Rega and Linn, but there are others with a good pedigree (inc. Garrard, Nottingham Analog). Rega's are are a good bet for entry level TTs. Linn are more expensive but almost infinitely upgradeable.

Cartridges - Moving Magnet are the cheaper option usually sub £250, Moving Coil are better but costs start from £200 up into the thousands.
Probably best to start with a good MM and grow from there.

Phono Inputs - You will need either the correct (MM or MC) phono cards in the 102 or a separate Stageline (or Prefix for the Linn) phono pre-amp.

Equipment Supports - Opinions vary considerably on what is the best TT support. Personally I have a Stands Unique (10mm) table under an LP12 and it works extremely well even on a suspended wooden floor.

Hope this helps. You could also try the
PinkFish forum, where there is considerable Vinyl expertise and pre-loved TTs for sale.

David

Hi Phil,

Vinyl has its good sides but it also has its bad sides. In my view, if you don't have a vinyl collection, you should forget it. Modern albums have extremely short production runs of vinyl, although they're usually fairly good quality which is more than can be said for much of the 70's output. Also, many albums simply aren't released on vinyl. Don't forget too, that you may be investing in a multichannel source at some stage in the future!

In my view, if you really can't get on with your current cd source, then you may wish to consider a higher end source. That would improve your current and future collection significantly.

Now, if you really can't live with CD, there are many analogue solutions from several respected manufacturers. Here are a few that seem to work with Naim equipment:

Linn LP12. The archetypal record deck for Naim systems. Comes in varying forms, usually with a Linn arm. Early LP12's (pre '87) could warp so avoid them if possible. The deck's bearing was improved in the 90's. The new bearing is called the Cirkus bearing. Opinion is divided on the merits of the two, but in my view the Cirkus makes the deck listenable! There have been other changes to the deck which include the materials of the lock nuts etc. There are three main power supply options - valhalla (in the deck), Linn Lingo and Naim Armageddon. The valhalla is a good basic power supply. the Lingo offers 45rpm at the press of a button. Downside to the Lingo is a slightly metronomic presentation. the Naim doesn't have the speed selection, but has the most fluid presentation of the three. I haven't heard other power supply options but they do exist (Avondale and Origin Live come to mind).

LP12 arms. Early Linn Akito arms aren't that hot so avoid them too. Later Akitos (post 95) are pretty good. Early linn Ittok arms (LVI)aren't brilliant. Try to look for Ittok LVII or LVIII. If buying new, the new Akito is close to an LVIII for performance. New arms are the Linn EKOS and the Naim ARO. opinion is divided on the relative strengths. In my view the Naim is more musical through having a more fluid, progressive presentation. there are other arms used with the LP12 but these are few (Zeta - now out of business - and SME V come to mind).

Michell Gyrodec. New decks have a DC motor which substantially improves timing and noise. this has a basic wall-wart power supply or the better quality VC supply. Older models had an AC motor. The AC motor had 3 options for power supply being a wall-wart, the Gyropower (basically an improved regulated wall-wart) and the quartz locked Gyropower QC, which was a major improvement over the others, still not as good as the basic DC motor though. The bearing was changed in the early 90's. the new ones are a gold pillar supporting the platter whereas the old ones were bronze. The bronze ones are quite rare I think. The newer is quite a bit better than the old one.

Arms-wise it's usually saddled with a rega arm unfortunately. A better combination is either a SME arm or a Wilson benesch arm. In my opinion, the Wb arm is the best of the modern arms with the Gyrodec. Older arms such as Zeta and Mission Mechanics (what I use) also worked well (better in the case of the Mechanic in my view). I believe the Danish Morch arm works well too.

Rega P9, P9 2000: Rega make several decks below this level but the P9 is the one that competes with the decks above. The two models are quite different from each other in terms of execution, the latter being a development of the former. The original P9 came with the RB900 arm. The new P9-2000 comes with the RB1000 arm. It's not recommended to use other arms on Rega decks.

Roksan Xerxes, Xerxes 10: Roksan make a couple of other decks. The Xerxes and Xerxes 10 are the ones in this range. Original Xerxes decks had a tendency to warp. If memory serves, they had two power supply options, one internal and one external. Often used with Rega arms which was a good match, but Roksan made their own good arms too - the Tabriz, Tabriz-zi and Artemiz.

Nottingham Analogue Spacedek: Again several decks available but this is around the same price as above. NA make their own arms, both gimbal and parallel trackers.

There are other decks around but it's not as common to find Clearaudio, Projekt, Wilson benesch, Origin Live or any others in Naim systems.

Cartridges are another market entirely! Commonly well regarded makes include: Dynavector, Grado, Koetsu, Linn, Lyra, Ortofon. Different cartridges are better with different decks, and you will be best advised by your dealer in terms of making a sensible decision that matches your solution.

As to cartridge type, Moving Coil has an output about 10 times lower than Moving Magnet. typically a moving magnet comes out with about 2mV of signal whereas the Moving Coil comes out with about 0.2 - 0.6mV. This has an impact on the phonostage you use.

The phono stage is that section that amplifies the cartridge signal to 'line' level - or a level approximately equivalent to CD players, tuners, TV's etc. Most line sources turn out roughly 2V. Most phono stages are more like 1 - 1.8V.

Phono stages can be internal (with specific boards in your case), or they can be an external box, such as the Trichord Dino or Tom Evans MicroGroove. Each phono stage of a different design has a significant effect on the ultimate sound you will achieve. The Naim boards are a good value for money item at around £90 a pair. A good external stage starts at £400 and then you have to cost in the interconnect. Once again, you need to talk to your dealer to work out what you're after.

The Stands Unique racks are basic ordinary racks, not particularly exciting but not truly a performance rack. Still, it's better than a set of shelves and will suit most decks mentioned above in its way. Racks have an effect on the sound just like anything else!

You'll note that I'm talking fairly high end decks here and haven't mentioned the cartridges particularly. The marketplace is fraught with opinion on these items and supply is patchy, especially for demonstrations, so you need to find a decent dealer who can demo things to you but you will most likely have to hear them in unfamiliar surroundings with unfamiliar kit. It's difficult to master. The rewards are great, but you should seriously consider the better digital source before deciding to go the vinyl route since it really does have its own downsides which you will have to learn to live with if you wish to accept it.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

I had real problems using my Stands Unique (basic 6mm Glass) with my Sondek on top. Even with the extra isolator on top you couldn't walk across the room while playing a record. This may be down to the construction of my (1994) house, in the end I had to buy a wall-shelf so I could play records.

Phil,

As Frank points out you need to think seriously about whether the advantages of vinyl replay counterbalance the fact that you (presumably) have no vinyl lps. IMO, what kind of music you like is relevant here, since vinyl availability varies greatly across genres. Thus for instance,

Recent classical recordings = next to nothing on vinyl, IME.

Classical recordings prior to 1990 = lots on vinyl, but used and of highly variable quality. Usually very cheap though.

Jazz = lots used, but it's often expensive for good used records.

Older rock/blues = lots of it, and cheap. Mostly used but some rereleases available new.

Recent rock = maybe 30% of new releases appear on vinyl, mostly on indie labels.

Thus if you buy a lot of new classical records, you're likely to be disappointed with selection. OTOH, if you want to build up a lot of 60s/70s rock for cheap, AND you're not bothered by older, noisier records, vinyl could actually pay off. So think carefully about what records you plan to buy before you get a TT, and check their availability and price.

Eric

hI FLED

EJL MADE SOME GOOD COMMENTS REGARDING AVAILABILITY OF RECORDS. wHY DO YOU WANT A RECORD DECK? iF ITS JUST TO PLAY THE ODD LP THAT YOU HAVNT YET SENT TO THE JUMBLE SALE THEN A rEGA p2 WILL BE FINE. iF ON THE OTHER HAND YOU WANT TO GET INTO VINYL THEN i THINK ITS IMPORTANT TO GET A DECK THAT IS ON A LEVEL WITH YOUR cd.
fOR QUITE A FEW YEARS i USED A rEGA PLANAR 3 AND A pLANET CD AT THE SAME TIME. i DIDNT PREFER ONE OR THE OTHER AS FAR AS ENJOYING LISTENING TO MUSIC WENT. mOST NEW RELEASES WERE CD, BUT WHAT VINYL DID FOR ME WAS TO OPEN MY MIND TO A LOT OF MUSIC THAT i PROBABLY WOULDNT HAVE TRIED ON CD BECOUSE OF THE PRICE. £10-£15 IS ALOT OF MONEY TO RISK ON AN UNKNOWN ARTIST OR ALBUM, AT THE TIME MOST RECORD SHOPS WERE GETING RID OF THE LAST OF THER VINYL STOCK AT OFTEN SILLY PRICES.
cOST IS LESS OF AN ISSUE NOWADAYS AS CD PRICES HAVE GENERALY FALLEN, (FOR BACK CATALOGUE AT LEAST) WHERAS VINYL IS NOT AS CHEAP OR AS PLENTIFULL AS IT ONCE WAS. i MUST ADMIT TO ENJOYING GOING ON A RECORD HUNT ROUND THE CHARITY SHOPS OR A CAR BOOT SALE, THAT IS WHY IVE ENDED UP LISTENING TO SUCH A WIDE RANGE OF MUSIC, YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT YOUR GOING TO FIND.
pERSONAL AND FINANCIAL CIRCUMSTANCES FORCED ME TO SELL ALL MY HI-FI, RECORDS AND CD,S SOME YEARS AGO AND ITS ONLY BEEN THESE LAST FEW MONTHS THAT IVE MANAGED TO GET STARTED AGAIN AND HAVE GONE FOR VINYL ONLY THIS TIME. aT THE END OF THE DAY ITS THE MUSIC THAT MATTERS, NOT HOW ITS REPRODUCED.

Whoops, sorry for shouting!

I'm with Frank on this. If I didn't already have a vinyl collection I don't think I'd bother.

Have you tried listening to a better CD player? (Not that the CD5 is bad of course).

Steve B

Hello Phil.

I got into vinyl about 6 years ago. In and out of vinyl I should say. I did not realize that vinyl was capable of sounding so poor with some records. On the other hand, some records were amazing. Later I found that most records sound great with a good turntable. I sold the turntable out of frustration, but very soon realized that something was missing when listening to a CD. Bought another turntable and began the long and sometimes expensive road to enlightenment. I'll keep it short. Balance is the key. Following the advice of those like Frank above is very useful, because you'll put together a player that will work right the first time. It is well documented as to which combinations work well together and with NAIM gear. Expensive cartridges on a cheap deck don't work very well. An inexpensive deck with a properly matched inexpensive arm with a properly matched cartridge connected to a properly matched phonostage will be more rewarding than a bunch of expensive bits hobbled together.

A good start in my opinion, is a Rega player with a properly matched moving coil cartridge sitting on a Rega wall shelf (must have if our going to get the bass right) with internal phono K boards. If it is set up corrctly, you'll enjoy listening to it right away and you can start buying records. If you find it's not for you, you can easily sell the Rega gear and get your money back. If you love it and aspire for more, great. I now listen to a fully Naimed LP12 and love it. Believe me, the NAIM bits really make a big difference.

Regarding purchasing records, I live in the US, so no problem getting them here. There are so many used records, that you'll forget about new albums not released on LP. But, you have a CD player for that. Don't go into this with the attitude its only going to be one or the other. Big mistake. Enjoy both. In the end, you'll play the one that gives you the most satisfaction, and for me, it's the turntable.

I do agree with trying a top flight CD player first. If your still not safisfied, then give it a go with vinyl.

One last thing, be sure to get a good record brush and some stylus cleaner. Use regularly for good hygiene.

Lennart

Because a hell of a lot of Naimies can't see past the LP12...

Of course a Rega 3 isn't as good as an LP12 (personally I prefer it but we won't go there!) as it's what, about a quarter of the price second hand, but it's not a bad turntable on its own merits.

Personally I could never hear past that bass bloom of the LP12 - whether it's more musical or not doesn't matter if it sounds like it's playing through treacle. Please note though that I've only heard a low end LP12 in any real large ammount - the other times were at hifi shows.

The one time I heard an LP12 and liked it, by the way, was in Audio-T - a fully Naim'd jobbie - much more convincing and didn't have that bloom

<Ducks under the torrents of "this guy is deaf!">

BTW - a Rega P(lanar) 3/RB 300/Dynavector 10x4 is a pretty nice deck with great price/performance...

When the music's over turn out the lights

Dillon

Nobody here has put down the rega arms per se. My complaint was that they are all too often supplied with Michell decks. Michell decks are about dynamics and scale. Rega arms (and decks for that matter) are about pace and timing. That's not to say they don't work with each other. It's just that their weaknesses combine to produce a less than favourable result. In my experience, the best combinations are ones where the components play to each other's strengths and this is just not the case here.

Although the RB300 is a marvellous design, and well worthy of the allocades it receives, it remains an entry-level arm with its own well-recognized characteristics, both positive and negative. The fact it batters all opposition at up to 3 times its price is attractive, but an arm which is better suited to the deck will provide huge benefits to its owner.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.