global warming fraud - finally exposed!

What is in the leaked documents that draws you to the conclusion that it's a con?

I think you need to look at that again Eddie...it's nothing of the sort.

...and if it was, you'd still be happy to believe Terry Wogan and petro-chem scientists over experts in relevant areas? ...your choice of course mate.

The problem is not in my view Global Warming so much as the exhaustion of finite fossil fuel reserves by wasteful and unsustainable actions.

Global Warming may or may not exist, may or may not be caused by mankind's actions, may or may not get out of control. But it seems to me that there is absolutely nothng we can do about it whatever the cause, so we may as well stop worrying about something that may never be a serious problem, and even if it does prove to be serious - even serious to a previously inconceived degree - then the only real solution is to radically reduce the population of humans on the earth. Clearly this is not going to happen voluntarily. Thus it is not something to worry about, as worrying about it is not going to make an iota of diffeence.

But wasting finite resources remains a scandal. Literally the act of wasters. Only a fool would knowingly simply waste finite resources, and then bring a offspring into a world left short of these resources by the present and preceding generations of humans' thoughless or even knowing wastefulness.

I have the greatest respect for those who control the urge to procreate, and thereby make the greatest possible contribution to saving finite resources.

So either turn your Naim pieces off for the sake of future generations, or get machines that are inherently more efficient ...

ATB from George

I think millions of people living in at risk coastal areas and in the pacific may take issue with what's important George...being frugal or being safe.

My interest lies in the people, not the resources.

Dear Mat,

I am already very frugal. I am trying to sell the remains of my Naim kit, because apparently it needs to be on all the time, and reduce everything to the headphone output of a low energy consumption laptop ...

I use a bike to get to work, refrain from using the oven, take baths in four inches of water, and so on and on.

I am glad to read that the oil will not be in absolute shortfall in my lifetime [currently 48, so give myself another 22 years, as I do not intent to give my body an easy time of it to preserve myself as a senile addled cabbage], so there should not be a disasterous food shortage while we still have oil to make nitrogen fertilisers ...

I have absolutely no intention of saddling any offspring with the future problems of the world, which in the main is simply interested in tomorrow or next year, rather than the future of the nnext how ever many generations.

Yes, I would bet that many who will be affected by worse weather and rising sea levels resulting from Global Warming might wish there were more frugal people like me, but unfortunately there are not so many of us.

The future - the future of the next generations - stands a big chance of being very bleak indeed, IMO

ATB from George

quote:

I think millions of people living in at risk coastal areas and in the pacific may take issue with what's important George

...and assuming that global warming is inevitable (because mankind is not the cause, or because mankind is the cause but we have passed the "tipping-point").....

what would be important?

Cheers

Don

Flood defence and moving people to safer areas. Although Don, that's an oversimplification...regardless of what the cause of SLR is (and it is a fact), the issue which need to be faced are social ones and coastal zone management.

Whether oil runs out next month or next century is by the by in this context.

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
The future - the future of the next generations - stands a big chance of being very bleak indeed, IMO

I agree George, times may well be bleak - but life will have it's wonder in those times, given a good throw of the dice. I'm sure happy folk lived through all of the dark times of the past.

Being frugal is a toughie though George. I've worked all my life in conservation - passing up more lucrative if less enjoyable professions, I cycle to work everyday, I buy organic, I recycle and when I do use a car it's an efficient, dull number. However...I fly to europe or beyond for holidays at least twice a year...which blows it all out of the water somewhat.

I remain optimistic about the future though George - I see the scarcity of resources as potentially a positive thing. It may well shrink the world, slow down the pace of life and force us all to lead more simple lives. I can also see that this will come at a terrible price for some.

At an individual level, I see my role as a parent is vital...my offspring will find their own path, but they'll be well informed of the dilema's which will face their generation and be exposed to the natural wonders of the world. We need youngsters who are up for the task.

This old ball has got many, many years of fun left in it yet.

My naim gear uses such tiny amounts of power being left on, it's just not worth turing it off!

Boiling the kettle once will use more power than my naim gear does in two weeks.

It's just not worth destroying the electronics for. Keep it switched on. I bet if you turned your hi fi off at the mains you wouldn't even notice it on the meter. It's not worth worrying about, it's not a heater.

Now if we were to talk about tumble dryers or something, then...

quote:

I am trying to sell the remains of my Naim kit, because apparently it needs to be on all the time, and reduce everything to the headphone output of a low energy consumption laptop ...

Dear George,

This seems astonishingly hair-shirted. You do have some vices don't you?!

Best, Chris

I think as well, keeping old naim kit alive (even if left on) prevents it falling into a landfill, keeps folk inside as opposed to traveling to heated halls full of musicians and punters who have done likewise and happy balanced individuals are more likely to have positive benefits on society (as demonstrated by how lovely we all are on here).

If we all just stayed at home and let the likes of Dr P and Tom from Tom Tom tool around fettling our domestic systems...life would be better.

quote:

Flood defence and moving people to safer areas.

So,

How imminent is this problem
How extensive is the problem
Who is going to fix it ie build the flood defences or build new huts/houses/offices/factories
Who is going to pay for this change

Try

Somebody has lived in their 200 year old family home, in East Anglia, which will collapse into the North Sea in 2040

Somebody who bought the house next door in 2038 and will suffer the same fate

A native of the Maldives running a lucrative holiday business in the islands

Somebody who buys a house today in the new Thames Gateway development

A family living in the coastal waters of Bangladesh


Cheers

Don

Don mate...I've just spent the past two years working on the Shoreline Management Plan for various areas, North Norfolk being one...exactly where is this 200 year old house?

For your 'try' list Don...what are you expecting? I can think of solutions to all that list.

Who is going to pay? You are, we all are...and it started some time ago.

quote:

I've just spent the past two years working on the Shoreline Management Plan

Then you'll know that the UK government isn't going to fund coastal defence works for all properties at risk in the UK.
And I bet the insurance companies manage to wriggle out.

So, how high will sea levels rise? (lets ignore the changing effects of weather - storm effects etc)
Stick with the UK to start. 2' ? 20' ? 200' ? in 10 years? 100 years? 1,000 years?
Should we allow development to continue in areas below predicted future sea levels?

Cheers

Don

quote:

Originally posted by Christopher_M:

Dear George,

This seems astonishingly hair-shirted. You do have some vices don't you?!

Best, Chris

Yes, Wodka! I boxed up the 72 and 140 in a Supercap box this evening!

It is not a hardship to do this as the headphone solution is more musical than any loud speakers that I could ever afford. The number one faulty element is that no room has a decent enough accoustic to accomodate music well. It spoils the directness of the music making by overlaying the original recorded accoustic with a secondary one that does nothing but cause damage to the impetus and power of the music making.

Having adopted this headphone directly off a computer path, I have concluded that to get something as fine via loudspeakers would cost perhaps £30K, and require a dedicated listening room to boot.

Refraining from this level of expenditure is hardly hair-shirt!

ATB from George

Yes I am aware of that Don...although the governments position may well change.

A few things: Ignoring storm effects isn't wise and secondly, the figures (for the UK, which account for the islands shift as we rebound from the last ice age) are overdue from Defra.

I'd not be comfortable discussing the anticipated levels of SLR in the UK on a forum...but I'm happy to discuss it via PM (my address is on my profile).

In terms of coastal flooding, I think it's fair to say that existing coastal communities will continue to be protected at least until 2100 (isolated properties maybe not so). I'm not sure what the position will be with regard to fluvial flooding (it's not my field) - but I suspect matters may well be different there.

Well where I live they are building more floating homes and the number will continue to grow. We are not talking about houseboats here but homes that ride on floatable plinths anchored on long chains that allow water levels to rise and fall so hopefully we will not have 'homes that pass in the night' in the future.

Some Dutch experts warn that something like 50% of their country could disappear back under the sea if SLR as Mat calls it rises to long term predictions.

A recent comment from a Dutch architect expressed the opinion that the long term protection that will be provided by the Thames Barrier is doubtfull and took a dim view of the lack of foresight in the Thames Gateway plan.

Geoff

quote:

Ignoring storm effects isn't wise

I wasn't suggesting otherwise, simply trying to keep things simple, one step at a time sort of .

If sea level rise is predicted at 200' within 100 years, then the way we might consider dealing with storm surges today could be almost irrelevent.

The island shift from the ice age rebound is still measured in mm pa (isn't it?) so over 1,000 years we are talking about a couple of meters. Or are we taking at crossed purposes here?

The SLR must be frightening if a forum like this is out of bounds!!!

My other main residence is in mid-BC on a mountain ridge about 1,500' above the Okanagan valley which is itself about 1,250' above sea level. So providing we leave a week or two before Heathrow gets deluged we should be ok about 2,750' amsl???

Cheers

Don

quote:

A recent comment from a Dutch architect expressed the opinion that the long term protection that will be provided by the Thames Barrier is doubtfull and took a dim view of the lack of foresight in the Thames Gateway plan.

My point exactly Geoff. We remain pretty short-sighted over here. 5 year plan = max future vision for gov/builders/estate agents.....

Cheers
Don

Dear George,

Well thank heavens you have a vice. But vodka from Poland, George! Really! And to think that essentially similar products are available from Scotland with obvious reductions in food miles.

Ok, so your much-rhapsodised 72/140 seems to be going in favour of headphones straight from your laptop, and you say a very substantial sum would be needed to get the same performance from amp and speakers. But in all seriousness, could a Headline be worked into there with your laptop and say, a decent pair of Grados? And if so, which would you object to more, the cost of getting superior sound from the Headline and Grados, or the fact that the Headline might have to be permanently left on for optimum performance?

I suppose there are the environmental costs of producing the a single HL and a pair of Grados too.

I'm trying to get to the heart of your individual eco-activism. Is it motivated by a desire to save the planet, or to save money?

Yours sincerely (even though the first bit was very tongue-in-cheek),

Chris

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
My point exactly Geoff. We remain pretty short-sighted over here. 5 year plan = max future vision for gov/builders/estate agents.....

It's simply not the case though Don. In the UK I work for a dutch company which are producing Shoreline Management Plans for half of England's coastline. SMPs provide management for defences and shorelines until 2100. That's not to say, all properties will be protected though of course. Most of my work is outside the UK, but I think they are doing a good job here...nobody wants another 1953.

My reasons for not discussing SLR are nowt to do with it's magnitude Don, and it's not self importance. It simple wouldn't be wise to discuss the specifics of a sensitive issue like that on a forum in public in my position. You are clearly informed though Don, yes, isostatic compensation is mm, but mm are important in establishing the standard of defences in the long term. In the interim Defra has a lot of information on expected levels of SLR.

My worry is, most folk in the UK don't believe in climate change (see first post), it seems an equal number don't then believe in SLR...the tabloids have much to answer for.

The trouble with experts is - they are experts at f**k all.

In the seventies they predicted that we would go back to an ice age around about now...

Now it's global warming.

IMO the truth is, nobody is clever enough to know what is happening with the globe, it's all speculation.

The best proof is yourself. It's what you see and experience that counts not what some so called expert boffin thinks.

Regards, Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Tate:
The trouble with experts is - they are experts at f**k all.

Look forward to seeing you curing yourself of cancer, flying yourself to the moon and building your own DAC Steve. There's no experts in the world, therefore you create your own 'truth'. Hmmm.

For those open to the heresy of science...some SLR figures are here at:
SLR Figures for SEast

quote:

.... folk in the UK don't believe in climate change (see first [UNBELIEVABLY CRASS] post)

The problem IMHO is most (I did say most) folks long term life plan is directly related to disposable income and modelled on their own situation & local environment.
(When on benefits it probably means the most important thing is what cost savings the next trip to the supermarket will bring)
(When in disposable income surplus, then food carbon impact concerns may begin to kick in)

Global warming effects are not PROVEN to be a cause in the UK population (YET). Yes sensible thinking people with half a brain do know GW to be a concern, but it is not on their radar, it has not destroyed their little patch (YET) For most people is its not a real concern because its something they believe will not affect them in their lifetime. But try the same question on Bangladesh (e.g.) who's population are negative in GWI.
The events in Cumbria this last weekend are sure to raise the question again and I am sure those unfortunate folks will be moved a little closer towards being actively concerned.

It IS a fact that the planet is overloaded with CO2, its estimated we have a factor of 18 times more than needed.
The CO2 breathing tropical forest trees are being reduced daily, te size of Wales annually is probably an underestimate. Their carbon is released in the resulting wood burning blanketing huge areas in polluting smoke. Then they are replaced by monoculture palm oil for your bio-diesel or copious numbers of inefficient methane producing cattle ..........
CO2 overload has happened before, it was the cause of at least one, possibly many more, mass extinctions in the past. But we humans were not around then were we ? so who cares.

To those readers who imply that the "boffins" are speculating, that it is all a myth, and especially to the first poster.
Please go find another planet to f###up and leave mine alone.