Digital Music with Apple
Posted by: Mike in PA, USA on 25 October 2008
Hey gang,
I'm new to this distributed audio thing and have been reading some of the relevant posts here, as I have recently purchased a MacBook and am planning to stream through Airport Express to a DAC and then my 202. I have also spoken with some of the techs at Apple, who are very helpful (if you get the right one on the phone). I will share some of my learnings below. Some of you may already know this, others may have comments which I would love to hear, others may find this information useful.
1) AIFF and Apple Lossless both pull tags (album info) down from iTunes. AIFF is uncompressed (10MB per minute of music) while AE is compressed to about half-size (5MB/min). An MP3, for comparison is 1MB per minute.
2) Going direct from a mac to a DAC with AIFF through a toslink will give the best sound. Airport Express automatically converts to Apple Lossless. The point here is that if you plan to use AE exclusively, you may as well skip AIFF and used Apple Lossless to economize on storage space. So theoretically:
Mac -> AIFF -> Toslink -> DAC -> Preamp
will sound better than
Mac -> Apple Lossless -> Toslink -> DAC -> Preamp
but
Mac -> AIFF -> Airport Express -> Toslink -> DAC -> Preamp
will sound equivalent to:
Mac -> Apple Lossless -> Airport Express -> Toslink -> DAC -> Preamp
3) Airport Express and Apple TV will have the same audio quality. The fact that ATV has an OS and hard drive have nothing to do with how it streams data. ATV contains an AE (essentially) for this purpose.
4) There is third-party software available that will stream AIFF files, however this program (forget the name) is about $500.
5) If you want to be able to control a large collection of music wirelessly, the "suggested" solution is to set up a dedicated music server hardwired to the DAC, which is then controlled by a separate computer on the wireless network. The server would likely be connected (hardwire) to a large hard drive to store AIFF files. This would look like:
MacBook -> Airport Express -> Mac Mini -> 1TB external drive (AIFF files) -> Toslink -> DAC -> Preamp
Given that a Mac Mini and external drive can be had for about $1000 combined, this doesn't seem like a bad way to go if you're pretty serious.
So, this is how I see it and how my system may in fact evolve. I'm currently ripping CDs onto the MacBook in Apple Lossless, and plan to go AE to a Beresford DAC for now. I'll probably experiment with some AIFF files and going toslink direct to the DAC before I rip my whole library, and make a determination on whether it makes sense to evolve the system sooner rather than later, as AIFF files will quickly fill up the 250GB drive on the laptop. I may also see if differences in sound quality between Apple Lossless and AIFF are more evident with a higher end (i.e. higher cost) DAC and if I care.
I hope this post was helpful and look forward to others' comments.
Cheers,
Mike
Posted on: 26 October 2008 by Mr.Tibbs
quote:
I pretty strongly disagree that the DIG stream is of low importance or that any $1k DAC is excellent(perhaps for the price as like anything else) but if you're happy with your BM through an AE and getting an enjoyable result, than you're using what's appropriate for you and at the end of the day, that's all that matters.
In the case of streaming via the AE (which is all I'm concerned with, which is most relevant to this thread, and my earlier response to garyi) then I think that the choice of DAC is critical for really good results. The AE is poor WRT jitter performance, so needs to be paired with a DAC that can minimize the problem. The Benckmark DAC-1s strong suit is jitter rejection, making it the ideal reasonably priced DAC for use with the AE. If garyi is using an older DAC (even if it is considered very good) it may be unable to provide good audio performance if it cannot 'fix' the poor jitter inherent in the AE.
I've just started down the streaming route, and hoped the AE > DAC-1 would provide acceptable results to begin with. I'm shocked, but delighted to find that it has in some ways exceeded the performance of my CDX/CDPS.
So, my early experience tells me that really excellent results can be had for a relatively modest outlay - it's just a matter of getting a few basics right.
Mr Tibbs
Posted on: 26 October 2008 by james n
quote:
I'm shocked, but delighted to find that it has in some ways exceeded the performance of my CDX/CDPS.
Shhh ... you can't say things like that on here
Posted on: 26 October 2008 by Keith L
quote:
Mr Tibbs, you've hit the nail on the head. I now have an expensive piece of kit lying idle while my AE does all the work.
I felt the same so I sold my CDX2/XPS2/Hi-Line.
Posted on: 26 October 2008 by DeltaSigma
quote:
Originally posted by Keith L:
quote:
Mr Tibbs, you've hit the nail on the head. I now have an expensive piece of kit lying idle while my AE does all the work.
I felt the same so I sold my CDX2/XPS2/Hi-Line.
My experience has been the same with my CDS3/XPS2/HiLine.
Personally, I'm beginning to suspect that CD players are a technology that belongs to a past era and hard disk/computer audio solutions represent an inherently superior technology (both sonically and in terms of the convenience offered). I would not be surprised if this became widely recognized in a few years with the result that CD players become a niche product reserved for a minority of buyers with CD collections too large to be ripped or who are not sufficiently confident of their computer literacy to come to terms with the new technology.
Posted on: 26 October 2008 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
Do you imply that ... ROTF ... who have expessed similar opinions also have ulterior motives? ...
I have no ulterior motive (I don't own any shares in anything and I'm not a business man in any shape or form) - I only commented on what I heard on one day in one particular context. I have not heard the HDX and have no idea if it sounds fantastic or otherwise.
I've never used an Airport Express. I have an Airport Extreme running in the house, but I don't use it to play music. For that I have humble record and CD players and I remain very happy with both. If ain't broke why fix it.
Could I do better with a computer and a DAC? Don't know and, if I'm honest, I'm not sure I care. I'd sooner be happy than right.
quote:
Personally, I'm beginning to suspect that CD players are a technology that belongs to a past era and hard disk/computer audio solutions represent an inherently superior technology
Yeah, yeah and one day a man will land on the moon ... heard it all, heard it all before. Hard disks are an abomination - if the computer industry wasn't so pathetically pedestrian then we'd have solid state technology now. Hard disks are a thing of the past and we should all thank god for that - a millstone in computing history; I'm a paper tape man myself. The computer audio industry must be one of the few places that seems to think hard disks are superior to optical disks for saving valuable data.
ATB Rotf
Posted on: 26 October 2008 by js
Sorry to bring you into this ROTF, if you felt put on the spot.
It seems many are being made happy here, both with something they prefer and others with good deals on CDPs they covet. Good things for all. Too bad there isn't a consensus on the best way to stream directly or otherwise from a computer so all could be on the same page with answers to oft asked questions.
Perhaps help at the start is more accepted. As has been mentioned by others, I feel ripping in properly setup EAC will get better results than directly into ITunes, WM etc, so I would personally start there unless convenience is a priority as ITunes and other players can be funny on importing meta data. It's not just rip and drop if you want more than the basics, unfortunately. Most everything is a trade off of sorts.
It seems this heretic should say ado. My opinions are my own but it seems they're oft not accepted as such. The Apple tech was wrong and I have other motives because we didn't go along with the current group think religion. So be it. I seem to stir things up more than I care to. Enjoy your kit whatever it may be.
I wish you all well and please experiment with an open mind. There's always a new door to open.
Posted on: 26 October 2008 by gary1 (US)
Munch, you've really got to be kidding with that last post of yours. Who do you think you are to make such comments??
JS is posting based upon his experience using various ripping programs, file types, ASIO drivers, and DAC combinations that he has demoed. I've been there and heard the same things that he has and when I 've been to the shop he has tested out the various combinations that you guys are recommending for the best musical playback. In each case they have fallen short in some way, even with rips using EAC. Not that many of the other formats were not acceptable, but it was evident to us that the music retained more of its innate character when using the combo that JS and his partners have hit upon rather than other combos suggested on the forum. This is our opinion, take it for what it's worth. Certainly the PC/wavelab/firewire/K8 for us provided more of what we want from the music than any other combination suggested here on the forum. Adding the Nagra 6 was in a different realm.
The real issue is with those who cannot accept a differing POV. Again and I really have no explanation for why you and others continue to harp on other individuals whose experience has provided them with a different take on things from what many other forum members take as dogma.
Posted on: 26 October 2008 by js
quote:
Originally posted by gary1:
Munch, you've really got to be kidding with that last post of yours. Who do you think you are to make such comments??
JS is posting based upon his experience using various ripping programs, file types, ASIO drivers, and DAC combinations that he has demoed. I've been there and heard the same things that he has and when I 've been to the shop he has tested out the various combinations that you guys are recommending for the best musical playback. In each case they have fallen short in some way, even with rips using EAC. Not that many of the other formats were not acceptable, but it was evident to us that the music retained more of its innate character when using the combo that JS and his partners have hit upon rather than other combos suggested on the forum. This is our opinion, take it for what it's worth. Certainly the PC/wavelab/firewire/K8 for us provided more of what we want from the music than any other combination suggested here on the forum. Adding the Nagra 6 was in a different realm.
The real issue is with those who cannot accept a differing POV. Again and I really have no explanation for why you and others continue to harp on other individuals whose experience has provided them with a different take on things from what many other forum members take as dogma.
It's fine Gary. That some view my defending the Apple Tech's opinion as an attack is interseting. It's probably better if all stop judging. I'm doing myself neither harm nor good by posting. My clients know me and few tread here.
There was one other thing I forgot about that garyi mentioned and perked my curiosity. Something about all music being sent to the AE via AL. I assumed AL was the limit as opposed to only vehicle. I really don't know but it seems a very inefficient way to send an aac or mp3 file though that may not be important here. Auf wiedersehen but not for a while at least.
Posted on: 26 October 2008 by garyi
I think its fair to say that harddrives etc do offer grea potential. However its early days and early days usually means you have to pay more for the best at that time.
An apple express and cheap dac do not offer the last word in fidelity, sorry folks but its true.
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by garyi
Actually Avole, a lot of people here are saying this.
And as for quality hifi reproduction, this is early days. Its not expectable to me to assume a 60 quid express and DAC of any calabre is HIFI, because in my experience its not the last word. Yes its great, but if you strip away the geek factor, and really get down and listen there is soul missing.
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by gary1 (US)
JS, I know that you can answer for yourself. Why others cannot hear the differences which we've heard, some minor, some major I have no explanation. I do know that I do not posess the most sensitive pair of ears, but they are getting better. Is it system set-up, speakers, as I know the Quads will very easily reveal things which might not be appreciated by other speakers, or other factors? Really, however, it doesn't matter, if people enjoy what they've got for whatever reasons that's what it's all about.
However, I have become quite exasperated at what has clearly taken place on the DA forum. Where several individuals who clearly get significant musical enjoyment from their kit and this includes computer source,DAC, ripping/playback software, cables etc... have now gone beyond reasonable and now feel that they must defend their choices no matter what is said by anyone else to the contrary on any aspect of the current "acceptable" set-up. This really just interferes with the open exchange of ideas and experiences which is the basis for the forum's existance whether it be a discussion of Naim gear or other allowable topics, etc... permitted on the forum. Clearly, some of the things that have come out of the posts have encouraged other individuals to look at little farther into their current set-up as evident by the new threads and questions which have been posted.
Why some feel the need to question motives and experiences is beyond me, as if our reporting of our results somehow questions the "raison d'etre" of their kit.
As an aside: I, too was extremely surprised by the comments from the Apple tech. Would not expect such openness from an employee of the company, but from what I've heard in the demos he was spot on.
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by garyi
Avole HIFI is Hi Fidelity, is the reproduction as faithfully as possible of the source material.
If you think an express does this thats fine. But it does not.
And I have heard expresses with a variety of dacs and ATV as well with and without. And an imac, mac book, ibook, powermac, imac intel second gen all through various dacs.
They are all great but take away the shiny artwork and playlists and ease of use or another way 'the geek factor' and get down and dirty and listen to music.
That for me is a different matter.
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by garyi
Then I shall stop conversing with you. I cannot make it clearer.
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by u5227470736789454
Hiya guys,
I think music must be like beauty, it is in the eye (or in this case, ear )of the beholder (listener )
At the end of the day there is no definative "best sound", just what we as individuals like, or else there would only need to be one (Naim )hi-fi system for everyone
A couple of weeks ago myself and my girlfriend listened to a mac through a dac (does not matter which one, before you all ask) vs a CD5x, and my girlfriend liked the mac/dac but preferred the CD5x, so we got one. I don't know if she/we are right or wrong and actually I don't care, we like the sound. How people manage to get worked up over this stuff is weird, we are reading typing words which try to describe a intensely personal interpretation of sound, we are all different, be happy about it, it would be a damned boring place if we all liked the same thing all of the time.
However, I will move to a hard drive player when they get a sound that myself and my girlfriend like ( HDX, XPS2 ??)
Cheers everyone, enjoy listening to you music on all of your wonderful systems - that's what this hobby/obsession is about after all
Barrie
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by garyi
What I am saying is the interface, the computer part can be very beguiling. People wil forgive lesser quality sound over nice shiney artwork and playlists.
If you turn all that off, close your eyes and listen to the music, is it genuinly better than a CD player or Record Deck?
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by DeltaSigma
quote:
Originally posted by garyi:
If you turn all that off, close your eyes and listen to the music, is it genuinly better than a CD player or Record Deck?
CD Player (CDS3) - definitely. Record Deck (LP12) - not quite.
IMO of course.
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by garyi
Fair enough Mike, its what this game is all about.
I would say however that at the minute an apple in what ever incarnation through a dac sounds a bit like how a computer would deliver music if it were sentient.
A CDS3 delivers music as a musician would.
IMO of course.
(Please understand my main source is an AppleTV, I am just being realistic with what I hear, its been a coming of realisation for me, sadly I sold the CDX on!)
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by DHT
quote:
A CDS3 delivers music as a musician would
Live long enough and you hear everything, are you a dealer gary, if you are not you really should be.
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by garyi
Why so defensive DHT?
I have never been a dealer of any kind. I am expressing an opinion which I am sure is what Forums are all about. I am sure you'll correct me if I am wrong.
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by Mike in PA, USA
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by Mr.Tibbs
quote:
And as for quality hifi reproduction, this is early days. Its not expectable to me to assume a 60 quid express and DAC of any calabre is HIFI, because in my experience its not the last word. Yes its great, but if you strip away the geek factor, and really get down and listen there is soul missing.
There is a danger in assuming that an Airport Express can't be up to much if it retails for £60. Because Apple will sell many thousands of them the development and build costs are much smaller per unit than if they were sold only to the 'audiophile'. Economy of scale and all that. As for the DAC, there are at least two out there that get great results when hung off an AE, but perhaps they too are not expensive enough to be considered as great HiFi?
As for the 'geek factor', I'm not sure that has to be the case at all. Once your CDs are ripped then there's nothing to do but play music. It doesn't get much less geeky than that.
quote:
What I am saying is the interface, the computer part can be very beguiling. People wil forgive lesser quality sound over nice shiney artwork and playlists.
They might forgive lesser quality sound, but IME that doesn't need to be the case at all.
Mr Tibbs
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by Mike in PA, USA
And eliminated the need for a CD player and associated power supply (or two, in the case of the 555
) eliminates the number of fraim levels necessary, making that support more affordable.
Right?
M
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by Adrian F.
quote:
4) There is third-party software available that will stream AIFF files, however this program (forget the name) is about $500.
Airfoil is only 25$, and seems to to the trick... (I don't use it myself). Mac & PC, trial version available:
happy streaming
Adrian
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by JonR
quote:
Originally posted by garyi:
Fair enough Mike, its what this game is all about.
I would say however that at the minute an apple in what ever incarnation through a dac sounds a bit like how a computer would deliver music if it were sentient.
A CDS3 delivers music as a musician would.
IMO of course.
(Please understand my main source is an AppleTV, I am just being realistic with what I hear, its been a coming of realisation for me, sadly I sold the CDX on!)
Blimey gary I hadn't realised you'd actually gone as far as moving on your CDX! I am pleaed with your comments about the CDS3 though and concur entirely.
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by garyi
Yea, you don't want to sell me it for a tenner do you, I seem to have ran out of money
