Another demo of HDX vs Klimax DS
Posted by: AMA on 13 November 2009
Did a demo of Klimax DS vs HDX through 202/200/Katana.
HDX/202/200/Katana were running 24/7 for more than a month and Klimax was out of the box.
With full respect to HDX the Klimax was on heaven comparing to HDX in all aspects.
With my ears it was not different presentation -- it was different league.
Not sure -- but from my past experience it seems doubtful that 555PS is capable to bridge such a big gap.
Possibly new DAC/555PS will be able to rival Klimax DS -- we'll see...
HDX/202/200/Katana were running 24/7 for more than a month and Klimax was out of the box.
With full respect to HDX the Klimax was on heaven comparing to HDX in all aspects.
With my ears it was not different presentation -- it was different league.
Not sure -- but from my past experience it seems doubtful that 555PS is capable to bridge such a big gap.
Possibly new DAC/555PS will be able to rival Klimax DS -- we'll see...
Makes sense but the 555PS is a huge upgrade. Only way to know how it fits in is to listen. 
Remember, you don't have proof 
and anything you hear in this forum is a product of ones imagination. joke. 
Gregg, did I ever post which XLR to BNC output transformer I liked? You have a lynx card if I recall correctly.
Remember, you don't have proof and anything you hear in this forum is a product of ones imagination. joke. Gregg, did I ever post which XLR to BNC output transformer I liked? You have a lynx card if I recall correctly.
quote:Originally posted by Exiled Highlander:
Sounds great Gregg. When does yours arrive?
Jim
Never said I ordered one - just demoed many times.
Right now too busy enjoying my "other" Linn purchase - Keel and Radikal
Gregg
quote:Originally posted by js:
Gregg, did I ever post which XLR to BNC output transformer I liked? You have a lynx card if I recall correctly.
JS
Think you are confusing me with someone else
Gregg
Oops. 
Well to those it matters. Tried a 1/2 dozen and the one we prefered was the
Graham Patten DATS-10.
British besides.
Well to those it matters. Tried a 1/2 dozen and the one we prefered was the Graham Patten DATS-10.
British besides.
quote:Did the Klimax have the new Dynamik power supply already built in?
Linn DS was new out of the box which means WITH dynamik PS
quote:I must add that knowing how AMA auditions equipment (based on the what recordings do you use to audition thread) it is not surprising we don't share conclusions
We listened for Diana Krall -- I can't really call it a "strange choice" for audition high quality equipment
quote:Klimax was too laid back for my taste
The bass tapping was a fair test for speed with Klimax ahead of HDX.
I was not prepared for Klimax to be better in transients. I think it's somehow related to a new dynamik PS.
quote:Akurate DS vrs HDX would fairer.
I have listened Akurate DS three times about six months before (no dynamik PS at that time) and was not such impressed as with Klimax yesterday.
quote:even the majik ds get same points like hdx
I listened for Majik DS once about a year ago and I don't think I would ever come back to this gear.
I think I have a VERY different vision of high quality sound from that of valued by this german hi-fi magazine.
I think what I liked with Klimax comparing to HDX is mostly related to jitter -- not XPS/555PS. I know how external PS improves the sound and can make some projections. I can believe that 555PS can improve transients on HDX and even surpass Klimax but the overall level of details and soundstage -- difficult to gap with PS only.
That's why I think new Naim DAC with reclocking features will improve HDX and can possibly take it to a Klimax level. I think Linn did a very good homework with Klimax DS. This is the first time I heard a gear with a tiny impulse PS which put it on the top of my audio experience. Before I did not believe in impulse PS at all.
In fairness to Naim -- in my demo yesterday Klimax was run through the original Linn Silver IC while HDX was run through the standard lavendar IC while HiLine would be a better choice for this contest.
In fairness to Linn --- Linn IC was RCA and RCA inputs on 202 are inferior to DIN
quote:Originally posted by AMA:quote:Did the Klimax have the new Dynamik power supply already built in?
Linn DS was new out of the box which means WITH dynamik PSquote:I must add that knowing how AMA auditions equipment (based on the what recordings do you use to audition thread) it is not surprising we don't share conclusions
We listened for Diana Krall -- I can't really call it a "strange choice" for audition high quality equipmentquote:Klimax was too laid back for my taste
The bass tapping was a fair test for speed with Klimax ahead of HDX.
I was not prepared for Klimax to be better in transients. I think it's somehow related to a new dynamik PS.quote:Akurate DS vrs HDX would fairer.
I have listened Akurate DS three times about six months before (no dynamik PS at that time) and was not such impressed as with Klimax yesterday.quote:even the majik ds get same points like hdx
I listened for Majik DS once about a year ago and I don't think I would ever come back to this gear.
I think I have a VERY different vision of high quality sound from that of valued by this german hi-fi magazine.
I think what I liked with Klimax comparing to HDX is mostly related to jitter -- not XPS/555PS. I know how external PS improves the sound and can make some projections. I can believe that 555PS can improve transients on HDX and even surpass Klimax but the overall level of details and soundstage -- difficult to gap with PS only.
That's why I think new Naim DAC with reclocking features will improve HDX and can possibly take it to a Klimax level. I think Linn did a very good homework with Klimax DS. This is the first time I heard a gear with a tiny impulse PS which put it on the top of my audio experience. Before I did not believe in impulse PS at all.
In fairness to Naim -- in my demo yesterday Klimax was run through the original Linn Silver IC while HDX was run through the standard lavendar IC while HiLine would be a better choice for this contest.
In fairness to Linn --- Linn IC was RCA and RCA inputs on 202 are inferior to DIN
Diana Krall? Oh god...Sorry, I would never buy any equipment where Diana Krall sounds good, she is so artificial for me
According to Stereophile the jitter of the Klimax DS is 200 ps. The CD555 is 245 ps, same way measured in Stereophile. So 200 ps is not that big deal.
still the hdx/555ps/dac will be a galactican battleship compared to the slimm and beutiful looking klimax cylon device ...in that point linn absolutely gets my sympathy...
...in that point linn absolutely gets my sympathy...quote:Diana Krall? Oh god...Sorry, I would never buy any equipment where Diana Krall sounds good, she is so artificial for me
Ference, I'm so sorry not to match your taste -- but Diana's records are good enough for ME to evaluate the audio system
I would not be surprised to see another couple of thousands on this forum (and a couple of millions outside this forum) who are not so critical on using her records in audio tests ...
By the way the other track during the demo was Mark Knopfler -- sorry if it doesn't click again...
quote:According to Stereophile the jitter of the Klimax DS is 200 ps. The CD555 is 245 ps, same way measured in Stereophile. So 200 ps is not that big deal.
I didn't get your point here. I demoed Klimax DS against bare HDX, not CD555...
Anyway -- just in case -- according to cold math the 44.1 Hz recordings should be below circa 346 ps of peak-to-peak jitter in order to resolve 16 bits (providing that amp sections deliver 96 dB dynamic range).
This means that if jitter spectrum is the same then I think it will be "difficult" for a human to differ 200 ps jitter from 245 ps jitter. But when it comes to jitter spectrum the difference between similar peak-to-peak jitter can be dramatic. The same Stereophile review measures 241 ps jitter for CD5X -- better than 245 ps for CD555. Do you find CD5X is more resolving than CD555? Or any suspect that Naim has put inferior transport to CD555 and gained the better sound due to superior DAC???
If I would relied on Jon Atkinson measurements only I have had thrown away the majority of my beloved gears
I doubt that HDX jitter performance is any close to Klimax or 555. But new Naim DAC seems to have a very good re-clocking stage and that's one of the reasons why I think it improves the sound of HDX -- I just wonder if Naim DAC manage to reject the HDX jitter and take HDX sound resolution to a Klimax or CD555 level.
Here I'm talking about sound RESOLUTION only -- because sound PRESENTATION between Klimax DS and HDX is a difference on it's own which is based on many other DAC elements like pre-DAC digital filering, DAC chip brand, post-chip filtering and VASTLY on analogue output stage including PS.
And many prefer HDX just because of this.
I guess you're saying it cleaned up - I like these new multi-purposes devicesquote:Every demo I did always had the Klimax wiping the floor
IMHO HDX + DAC is more musical than Akurate DS - not heard Klimax though.
I couldn't judge kit if Diana Krall or Mark Knopfler were playing - neither are to my taste so sympathise with the dilemma; I often think music is chosen to demo hi-fi in its best light, whereas most of us want to choose hi-fi that shows our choice of music off to its best. So put some Keith Emerson or Chas & Dave on and remember it's the music that counts
quote:Originally posted by AMA:quote:Diana Krall? Oh god...Sorry, I would never buy any equipment where Diana Krall sounds good, she is so artificial for me
Ference, I'm so sorry not to match your taste -- but Diana's records are good enough for ME to evaluate the audio system
I would not be surprised to see another couple of thousands on this forum (and a couple of millions outside this forum) who are not so critical on using her records in audio tests ...
By the way the other track during the demo was Mark Knopfler -- sorry if it doesn't click again...quote:According to Stereophile the jitter of the Klimax DS is 200 ps. The CD555 is 245 ps, same way measured in Stereophile. So 200 ps is not that big deal.
I didn't get your point here. I demoed Klimax DS against bare HDX, not CD555...
Anyway -- just in case -- according to cold math the 44.1 Hz recordings should be below circa 346 ps of peak-to-peak jitter in order to resolve 16 bits (providing that amp sections deliver 96 dB dynamic range).
This means that if jitter spectrum is the same then I think it will be "difficult" for a human to differ 200 ps jitter from 245 ps jitter. But when it comes to jitter spectrum the difference between similar peak-to-peak jitter can be dramatic. The same Stereophile review measures 241 ps jitter for CD5X -- better than 245 ps for CD555. Do you find CD5X is more resolving than CD555? Or any suspect that Naim has put inferior transport to CD555 and gained the better sound due to superior DAC???
If I would relied on Jon Atkinson measurements only I have had thrown away the majority of my beloved gears
I doubt that HDX jitter performance is any close to Klimax or 555. But new Naim DAC seems to have a very good re-clocking stage and that's one of the reasons why I think it improves the sound of HDX -- I just wonder if Naim DAC manage to reject the HDX jitter and take HDX sound resolution to a Klimax or CD555 level.
Here I'm talking about sound RESOLUTION only -- because sound PRESENTATION between Klimax DS and HDX is a difference on it's own which is based on many other DAC elements like pre-DAC digital filering, DAC chip brand, post-chip filtering and VASTLY on analogue output stage including PS.
And many prefer HDX just because of this.
I am very sorry again, do not want criticize your taste, but you are talking about RESOLUTION (with all capitals) and recordings like Diana Krall and Mark Knopfler? Their recordings are usually processed, eq-d like hell and there is nothing there left natural. You should be surprised to hear some really pure recordings on those machines you tried and try to judge the difference again what you can hear through one player and the other. Those deadly processed recordings like Krall and sometimes Mark Knopfler are grossly misleading.
You write RESOLUTION all capitals, so it probably means you find it important. I do not, as I think there is no such kind of thing as resolution nowadays (and probably as such). All the recordings are multi tracked, processed, delayed and manipulated and close miked. So the music is taken apart and reconstructed note by note, the process makes it completely artificial with practically no trace back to the original instruments and voices. This is why I think the most important thing in case of the home reproduction is how the music as whole interpreted, reproduced. Resolution is a kind of artificially created technicus terminus, when you are talking about music it has no meaning, it is about sound (somehow), music does not have resolution. But I like music, not the sound.
My examples of the jitter measurements shows how the jitter itself can not be used as a kind of magic word, if you want to explain why you like something. Your examples shows exactly this too. You tried to explain why you liked the Linn better, with its possibly low(er) jitter. But actually as my example showed its jitter is not without precedent.
Make no mistake, I do not criticize your opinion, I just tried to interpret your findings with my way of thinking
. Thanks for your opinion.quote:Originally posted by pylod:
still the hdx/555ps/dac will be a galactican battleship compared to the slimm and beutiful looking klimax cylon device
Linns one box solution (plus remote NAS) is certainly elegant and does save a potential fortune on powerlines and fraim shelves. I still prefer the Naim of course
Bob
quote:Make no mistake, I do not criticize your opinion, I just tried to interpret your findings with my way of thinking Smile . Thanks for your opinion.
It's OK, ference
quote:Originally posted by AMA:
We listened for Diana Krall -- I can't really call it a "strange choice" for audition high quality equipment
Try Leftfield's rhythm and stealth next time.
quote:I am keen to audition a Klimax DS. A single box solution seems so much more attractive to the 3 box HDX, DAC, 555PS alternative being promoted.
In my case I already have a very good streamer and XPS and waiting for a Naim DAC.
If it won't click then I will go for a Klimax DS and save one powerline, one interconnect and three shelves on frame