Another demo of HDX vs Klimax DS

Forgetting the box count, and certainly boxes not on the hifi rack - computer infrastructure is not part of the lounge hifi, at least in my house....

I'll take the one that sounds better. For me the HDX is not an option and I'm keen to audition the Klimax DS.

My streaming solution right now is Sonos. Coupled with a Lavry DAC into the hifi it certainly gives the CD555 with dual 555PS a run for its money. This week I added the new Sonos S5 all-in-one player in the kitchen. I now have the benefits of a 2 zone system. Simply fantastic. As a lifestyle product Sonos really does take some beating.

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:

quote:

Originally posted by AMA:
We listened for Diana Krall -- I can't really call it a "strange choice" for audition high quality equipment

Try Leftfield's rhythm and stealth next time.

Or try this, freshly baked, directly from the mastering suite, 96k/24 bit original ( no overdub, minimal editing, minimal processing, practically no eq, C414 and Royer ribbon mics as few as it was possible, not closed miked as usual, but a bit more than two mics and all sorts of high-end pro equipment, Mytek, Studer, Lavry, RME, etc), contemporary/jazz music, short sample:

contemporary jazz sample (original master)

quote:

Originally posted by Graham Russell:
Forgetting the box count, and certainly boxes not on the hifi rack - computer infrastructure is not part of the lounge hifi, at least in my house....

I'll take the one that sounds better. For me the HDX is not an option and I'm keen to audition the Klimax DS.

My streaming solution right now is Sonos. Coupled with a Lavry DAC into the hifi it certainly gives the CD555 with dual 555PS a run for its money. This week I added the new Sonos S5 all-in-one player in the kitchen. I now have the benefits of a 2 zone system. Simply fantastic. As a lifestyle product Sonos really does take some beating.

It doesn´t matter where it is located, it still is not a one box solution. Oh and how do you navigate music? With the DS front panel touchscreen? I think not.

That does not mean in your opion that the DS is not better than an HDX with added power supply.

I have to say the DAC takes it to a different level and we have a CD555 with two pPS555 but I cannot make my personal opions public on this forum regarding how it compares to the new DAC, which we also have.

I personally was disappointed after a recent Klimax DS demo at one of my dealers. Lots of detail but in my opion less music.

By the way, the navigation of music was a joke to set upand use.

Gordon

I'm also keen to try the new DAC on the back of my Sonos. If it's as good at jitter rejection as we're led to believe I'm in for a great time.

I've not played with a DS so can't comment on the GUI. For ease of use I still don't think you can beat the Sonos remotes or downloadable controller/iPhone software.

quote:

Lots of detail but in my opion less music.

As it often happens with Linn
Gordon, most of us here are predominantly after Naim.
But Linn did a really good job on DS.
I think Linn engineers did a kind of a breakthrough in impulse PS designs which
took them to a very high level at least in low output power supplies like those used in digital sources and phono stages. Dynamik PS and Radikal shines -- and this is a fact for many. I have listened DS through the all-naim system and was impressed with how good it was in all aspects including those advocated by Naim House.
I think many Naimophile will not be disappointed or ashamed of fronting their systems with DS.
I wish Naim DAC be on the same level to take them back home
And I'm still on the waiting list for the Naim DAC though I can easily afford a Linn DS.

quote:

I have to say the DAC takes it to a different level and we have a CD555 with two pPS555 but I cannot make my personal opions public on this forum regarding how it compares to the new DAC, which we also have.

We shall try to read between the rows

AMA

The preference of sound id down to the individual´s preferences but I felt the need to explain to Graham that the Linn DS solution is anything but a single box solution.

Only until recently do they offer navigation software, for an PC NOT the DS itself. The difference the Naim solution offeres is it is a finished product out of the box and does NOT need a computer connected to make it work. A trully ONE box solution.

It can also be upgraded with PS555 or XPS and DAC which can compete with anything the DS range can offer and in fact in my opinion better. But that is my opinion only

Gordon

I agree. Let's put boxes aside. They are not a real measure of musical enjoyment.

If we talk about functionality we can see that HDX is an excellent ripping machine which is a value on it's own and is not offered by Linn.

Apart from this, HDX is a very good CD-spinner and when run through external DAC can deliver a reference CD-playback.

HDX is a true streamer for external NAS and does not need extra software as in case of Linn DS.

HDX has a very comfortable touchscreen display and friendly access to the music without PC.

HDX has a built-in storage -- which in my case will accommodate less than 50% of my current music store but could be a good start for newbies.

HDX has a good built-in DAC to start the first hi-fi system at home.

As I can see HDX is an excellent VFM device!

Wow, I can be so good in convincing people!

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Originally posted by AMA:
Wow, I can be so good in convincing people!

AMA

LOL. Regarding capacity any solution could require a new or larger NAS at some point so adding one (when the software supports this) is no big. At this point if someone does not have an HDX a NS01 with an iPod touch (an extra box to be sure)may be a better way to go (pricewise) if they intend to use the seperate DAC

Cheers

Bob

Hi Bob,

The NS01 and DAC route is the way I am thinking as i have no need of the screen of the HDX, I am just waiting on the software updates to see if both the HDX and the NS01 get the same version.

Barrie

quote:

Originally posted by baz100:
Hi Bob,

The NS01 and DAC route is the way I am thinking as i have no need of the screen of the HDX, I am just waiting on the software updates to see if both the HDX and the NS01 get the same version.

Barrie

Hi, Barrie.
Do you know how big is the output jitter in NS01? I mean comparing to HDX or new CDX2-2...
Possibly you have already tried it with some top DACs.

Good approach Barrie...

I've always thought it's a bit of a shame the NS servers don't feature more prominently as part of Naim's standard product line up, instead of being tucked away within Naimnet...

I've just been looking at the NS03. There's the lack of top quality analogue stage and connection of external PS when compared to the HDX, but if you are connecting the DAC I guess these are suddenly mute points ? Presuming the much waited for software update IS exactly the same for both NS and HDX machines, are there any other differences to be aware of...?

Steve.

quote:

Originally posted by AMA:

quote:

Originally posted by baz100:
Hi Bob,

The NS01 and DAC route is the way I am thinking as i have no need of the screen of the HDX, I am just waiting on the software updates to see if both the HDX and the NS01 get the same version.

Barrie

Hi, Barrie.
Do you know how big is the output jitter in NS01? I mean comparing to HDX or new CDX2-2...
Possibly you have already tried it with some top DACs.

To be honest, I've no idea, but I did listen to a pre-production DAC with an HDX and an NS01 and the NS01 sounded good to me - which I suppose is all that matters, I will give it a final listen against the HDX when the production DAC arrives and will check the software update and then make my decision

Barrie

quote:

Originally posted by SC:
Good approach Barrie...

I've always thought it's a bit of a shame the NS servers don't feature more prominently as part of Naim's standard product line up, instead of being tucked away within Naimnet...

I've just been looking at the NS03. There's the lack of top quality analogue stage and connection of external PS when compared to the HDX, but if you are connecting the DAC I guess these are suddenly mute points ? Presuming the much waited for software update IS exactly the same for both NS and HDX machines, are there any other differences to be aware of...?

Steve.

Hi Steve,

I agree with the P/S comment but agree it is a moot point as adding one to the DAC should help. I need to re-listen though as there seemed to me to be a slightly richer sound with the HDX(I have no idea why although the NS01 was a very, very early version and I believe some updates have been made to the current version) but it is a choice for me between an HDX stand alone or a NS01+DAC.
Hopefully by January I will have had another listen and made a decision.

Barrie

quote:

I will give it a final listen against the HDX when the production DAC arrives and will check the software update and then make my decision
Barrie

Send us a message on your findings, Barrie.

all NS servers and HDX will have same software.

they both have the same digi out.

I just checked the price for NS01 and found it still not humanistic comparing to Squeezbox/Sonos range. I possibly miss something in NS functionality -- but what exactly can move me away from SB/Sonos towards NS-01??? CD drive?

quote:

Originally posted by AMA:
I just checked the price for NS01 and found it still not humanistic comparing to Squeezbox/Sonos range. I possibly miss something in NS functionality -- but what exactly can move me away from SB/Sonos towards NS-01??? CD drive?

That is the $64,000 question!

One thing might be the accuracy of the clock in the SB or Sonos - they would need to be in the range that the DAC could sync with them.

SB is decent jitter and when run through the Lavry sounds fantastic. Sonos is also low jitter.
Transporter which I use is low jitter so it sounds fantastic even through non-reclocking DACs.
I have a feeling that SB/SONOS range when run through re-clocking DAC are very good and close to each other and to PC/MAC solutions as transports. This is what puts a big question mark to me on what exactly do I get from NS01.

I tend to believe NS01 is a good ripping machine which is good value for those who are not proficient or lazy with using EAC/AccurateRip.
This can explain me what part of the market this product targets at.
But I'm not sure I picked it up. Why not to buy a cheap ripping machine and still using SB/Sonos solutions including the reference stereo reproduction (through DAC/555PS for example)? I still have a feeling I'm missing something in NaimNet functionality/usability as it looks surprisingly expensive comparing to the VERY similar (in fucntionality and performance) gears from other brands.

If someone is really too lazy to use dbPoweramp or EAC, I wil rip their cds for the price of an NS01!

But, since the NAIM DAC deals with jitter by buffering, isn't the absolute accuracy of the clock in the sender more important, to avoid buffer under/over-flow?

likemusic, I consider it like a threshold.
If jitter is below a certain value than DAC will carefully decode it so that all transports will be very similar in sound.
In fact it's not that simplistic as the nature of jitter (spectrum) is also important.
If you hear that your particular source sounds very detailed through non-reclocking DAC it means it has a low jitter and this also means that probably S/PDIF generator/cable is the major source of jitter. This type of jitter can be successfully rejected by re-clocking DAC. But if intrinsic transport jitter prevails over a S/PDIF contribution than re-clocking will not help to reject all jitter. Alternatively if original bitstream appears high jitter and/or crazy clock then DAC will still improve the sound by improved bitstream decoding with simulated "moving average" clock retrieved from original signal via PLL (or ASRC in Naim DAC). The procedure of simulating the clock seems to be wild and not fair -- but this is a step of desperate because for such a bad bitstream there is no REAL way to retrieve the ACTUAL master clock. And the sound through simulated master clock is still better comparing to one that runs to converter directly without any jitter treatment.
It should not bother future DAC users as we are all here planning to use standard PCM bitstreams with low jitter transports to feed Naim DAC. But if someone wants to listen for crazy file or attach a 100$ DVD player to Naim DAC -- please let him read the white paper on ASRC and forget of dreaming on reference CD555 playback
I have some confidence in that my Logitech Transporter (2 K$) is very low jitter digital transport and it supports a good variety of popular PCM codes.
But I have a feeling that Logitech Squeezbox (300$) which I also have is also good enough to be improved by re-clocking DAC.
I did not make a side-by-side comparison though and appreciate if you can link to such a discussion (I only compared TP vs SB3 through a non-reclocking DAC). Otherwise let's wait until my Naim DAC will arrive and I shall publish the summary of these exercises. I don't even need to burn it in to see how re-clocking works

The SB Touch could be a great match with the Naim DAC´s (nDAC and SN DAC). The SPDIF output seems to be better then the SB3.

For just a couple of hunderds the Touch is a serious mid session interval option (at least till Naim has released a seperate streamer).

The Touch will be released in the same period as the nDAC. Matter of weeks

AMA, if it is true that there is only one clock in the DAC for each likely input clock - ie, 44.1, 48, 88.2 etc, then it will be interesting to see what happens with a long piece of music or a movie.

The Philips Class 1 standard for a clock in a cd player is a maximum error of 50 parts per million. That corresponds to a (potential) error of 0.18 seconds over the course of an hour. This might be ok for music, but could be far too much for a DVD if lip-sync is important to you.

As I understand the white paper, it shouldn't matter if your SB3 has more jitter than your Transporter; as long as the clocks are accurate enough in absolute terms for the DAC to be able to buffer the data, the DAC should be able to clock the data out uninfluenced by the jitter in the source. You might almost expect the Transporter to sound the same as the SB3, if the buffer does it's job completely.

Edited to add: I agree with Fred, the Touch could be a great product. I've a Duet so, I'm very interested in AMAs findings.

(Of course, we will no doubt be told that only cds ripped on an HDX are any good ...)