Digital Output from MacBook

quote:

Originally posted by thesherrif:
Well I for one take great interest in what PCS says and appreciates the effort he puts into his posts. So come on guys quit the bitching why dontcha ?!!

You know the amazing thing about all this is that given all the problems that have to be overcome to extract error free music off a cd, it's incredible that Naim have managed to build cd players that rip off the digits perfectly in real time

Thanks Sherrif.... I am not so sure that the Naim CDPs get the bits perfect everytime. And people at Naim have eluded that "in theory" HD replay from "proper" rips could possibly sound even better than a CDP. Certainly with fewer errors.

It is just that we are in the infancy of this new technology. It took years for CD replay to get where it is today. I would expect the same for the HDX and HD replay in general.

Haha!

I think I'll bow out of this one.

Lets spuce it up!

Here's my take on the subject. Nodding off yet?

The easiest way to think of bit-perfect is to associate it to a software program, rather than a music CD, because a music CD does not need to be bit-perfect. Just error corrected adequately enough for excellent CD quality playback. In the case of software programs, the data needs to be collected and corrected perfectly, otherwise the program will not install or launch from your hard drive.

The Reed Solomon error correction method used is applicable to all forms of digital data whether stored as particles on a hard disk, pits & lands on a CD, or via broadcast technologies that require digital data correction on the fly. The difficulty with Audio CD is that music exists in a time domain. What you don’t need is an overly sophisticated Reed Solomon mathematic, because it would spoil your enjoyment with regular correction interruptions, or fail in it’s entirely.

Audio CD uses a Cross Interleaved method (CIRC), which can correct bit-perfect up to 3500 bits (2.4mm), and interpolate (not bit-perfect) up to 12000 bits. So in essence (and given I’m not a real expert), a CDROM or transport drive would need to rip the CD with less than 3500 burst rate errors to be bit-perfect.

In my experience, I would say this is never a problem with modern CDROM drives unless the laser, or other, is damaged. Given they sample data so quickly; I would have imagined that the iTunes, or other, error correction would suffice. Now, a normal CD transport (Meridian etc.), especially an old model, could possibly suffer larger amounts of burst rate errors in access of 3500 bits. In this case, the interpolate method would take over and potentially effect the sound. So I can understand why transports can sound different (outside of jitter), and that an argument for using a hard drive (even though it’s data corrected) could prove a better and more accurate medium for audio replay. Now you have jitter to worry about…?

Bit perfect or not, you and your system would struggle to hear the difference. Fact!

PCS

I appreciate the long reply regarding ripping etc, even though most of it was copy and pasted from the EAC site (i can understand that why you did it but you should at least acknowledge where you got it from) but you didn't answer my question about why it is so important if you are ripping to a different file format, namely FLAC, I really don't get that at all.

quote:

Can i hear errors? Oh yes. and you can as well

Also, I don't think you are in a position to tell me what I can hear, or in my case can't hear, especially when it contradicts what you said yesterday when you claimed to never have said that the differences were audible

quote:

No i wouldn't. And I have NEVER said it makes an "audible" difference.

So which is it? Are you prepared to bet that years salary now as you weren't yesterday?

garyi

Not like you to bow out! Too much work still to do in the kitchen? :-)

PMR

A good post.

Sherrif

I am challenging PCS basic assertions and once he gives me a straight answer I'll stop asking but regurgitating a whole load technical blurb time after time that doesn't answer the basic questions is not getting it done for me.

Cheers

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

Thanks Sherrif.... I am not so sure that the Naim CDPs get the bits perfect everytime.

I'm bloody well sure they don't and would go as far as to say "can't".

( Message to self...... lessent tension of taste organ on wall of oral cavity )

Back to the title of this thread and away from arguments about ripping methods…… I was certain my mac output wasn’t right. So I dug deeper into iTunes and found I had selected “none” for equaliser preference for each individual track. The main equaliser was still on with bass booster selected, exactly how I described the output. I have never needed iTunes playback in the past because SlimDevices takes care of that.

With the equaliser turned off digital output is now much better, more balanced with good attack. I haven’t done an extensive comparison between the sb3 and the mac. I assume the major difference will be between the link to the dac, between optical and coax output. The mac output is, as I expected at the beginning of this experiment, very good. It’s also given me a taster for the gorgeous graphics that accompanies Front Row. Personally I don’t want a monitor or tv screen in my audio room, but I can see the attractions for those who do.

I’m sorry I have caused so much head scratching….. I thought I had deselected the equaliser. Thanks Garyi and Steve for your suggestions.

quote:

Originally posted by Keith L:

I’m sorry I have caused so much head scratching….. I thought I had deselected the equaliser. Thanks Garyi and Steve for your suggestions.

Wahhhhh.....what about me me me me me !!!! I said it before they did; I'm telling my mum.

quote:

Wahhhhh.....what about me me me me me !!!! I said it before they did; I'm telling my mum.

And thanks to you Sherrif.

ATB Keith

Aw...... shucks, thanks

Jim,

What is so difficult to understand? Moreover, why do you care? Why not just do things your way, and I will go my way. Any problems with that?

OK I will explain one more time. You asked two/three independent questions which happen to have two varying answers. Hence your confusion. But read carefully and you will get it.


1) Can I hear an "audible difference" between two rips, one of which is proper and one of which is not?

NO! Most likely not. Just because something is not "proper" does not necessarily entail contains errors. The difference is that a proper rip will tell you if there are any errors, where they occurred and if they were corrected.


2) Does altering certain settings and other PC/Mac tweaks affect the sound quality?

YES! You betcha. When I moved from WMP to Foobar, things improved a great deal.


One concerns ripping and one concerns playback.

Are we clear now?

And....
3) Can I hear errors on a rip???

YES!!! Of course. You will hear a little tick or pop or skip you've never heard before. Sometimes it was on the Master tape. Other times it is a mastering issue. Nothig that can be done then. It is a part of the recording. Most times though, I check the log file and there is an error at that EXACT time.

One can then attempt to re-rip. Possibly the CD is damaged, or there is simply some "invisible" uncorrectable error on the CD, that happened during manufacturing.

Most likely though the CD was a little dirty and simply couldn't be read completely.

99% of the time a re-rip results in "NO ERRORS"


Lastly.... If you dont want to employ such efforts, or care, why are you asking me to explain and defend my methods.

I would guess that most Mac users would like to do everything they could to make the best rip possible.

But since an Itunes rip doesn't allow for certain aspects of it, you guys trash other methods. It is not my fault that Mac will not support other's ideas.

To blindly assume that an all-Mac solution to ripping and playing is optimal, without using ANY other's software or methods, is a little naive to me.

If it was the other way around, I imagine you would have no problem finding flaws. Think of using WMP, with WMA Lossless exclusively. Without considering any other codecs or ripping engines, error correction etc...

Remember I own Macs and PCs. I find one to be more thorough than the other. I love them both, but only use PCs for audio. Macs/Itunes are good if you want to buy low bitrate mp3s of mostly pedestrian music.

Just my personal choice.

-Patrick

quote:

Originally posted by Exiled Highlander:
I am challenging PCS basic assertions and once he gives me a straight answer I'll stop asking but regurgitating a whole load technical blurb time after time that doesn't answer the basic questions is not getting it done for me.

I hope my above explanation is "straight" enough for you.

Can I hear errors?
Yes!


Can I hear a "proper rip" over "your rip"
most likely not (unless one of them contains errors)?
Most likely not.


Does setting up a computer to optimize playback (and recording) audibly enhance the sound quality?
Absolutely.

As David Dever stated, these things do matter. The HDX is evidence of this. I am guessing that you trust Naim's methods?? Do you? Or do you think they are going overboard in their efforts to make a good rip??

Do it or not. I could care less about the quality of your rips.

Others, who do care, can do a little research and see there is some degree of consensus as to how to best handle the processes.

-Patrick


PS - Here is a VERY relevant and easy tweak, which of course you eschewed.

When playing back 24/96 audio, in my system, it sounded dramatically better when NOT running ANY other programs.

Also, keeping computer and player volume levels at 100% made a big difference.

The above goes for Macs and PCs.

PCS

You win. You continue to contradict yourself so have at it.

I do know that I cannot reliably tell the difference between a WAV or Apple Lossless file ripped using iTunes with error correction vs the original CD when replayed through the same system. So I will continue in my blissful ignorance and won't lose sleep over it.

Cheers

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Exiled Highlander:
You continue to contradict yourself

Would you PLEASE tell me exactly where the contradiction lies?

I do not believe I have contradicted myself once. Perhpas I misspoke or did not convey my thoughts clearly enough.

Can you point out the transgression please?

quote:

Originally posted by Exiled Highlander:
PCS

I do know that I cannot reliably tell the difference between a WAV or Apple Lossless file ripped using iTunes with error correction vs the original CD when replayed through the same system. So I will continue in my blissful ignorance and won't lose sleep over it.

Cheers

Jim

You and me both. Nor have I yet witnessed anyone else able to...but I guess it won't stop the "my lossless is more lossless than yours" speculation.

Patrick,

I don't see faith in any manufacturer's methods coming into it. I don't rely on anyone's marketing, just auditions.

Either you can reliably hear differences in lossless rips of the same disc, through the same system - or you can't. Jim and I can't, and have stopped worrying about them. But you seem very concerned that you might, but haven't so far. Confused? Yes I am.

I have yet to see evidence that it's worth going overboard with a rip. I do see lots of opportunity to mess it up after that - so that's where my priority would be.

Regards,

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Exiled Highlander:
I do know that I cannot reliably tell the difference between a WAV or Apple Lossless file ripped using iTunes with error correction vs the original CD when replayed through the same system. So I will continue in my blissful ignorance and won't lose sleep over it.

Now that is a fourth scenario you hadn't even brought up yet.

Quality rip vs. original CD?

I think the entire jury is out on that one.

It certainly depends on the CDP used.

A 555, CDS3, and possibly CDX2 owners would severely disagree with your contention that they sound the same.

They have been demoing the HDX against the Naim line of CDPs and there is no clear answer yet.

But if you cannot hear a difference, more power to you.

Just sit back and enjoy the music.

In fact, if I didnt think I could better my system in any way, I wouldn't spend time on this forum.

Why do you?

quote:

Originally posted by Steve S1:
...but I guess it won't stop the "my lossless is more lossless than yours" speculation.

Have I said ONCE that I can hear difference between LOSSLESS rips, provided there are NO ERRORS??????

Please let me know if i did. I am sure I NEVER have.

We are talking about errors here. Either you dont have ANY errors with your rips, or you cannot hear them. Either way all is well.

I personally CAN hear most errors, and I strive to ensure there are none on my rips.

You might never have had a single error. I doubt it, but it is possible.

Enjoy your music and dont worry about me....

Another strange post Patrick.

You can't compare a rip's quality by comparing one to the CD played on a Naim CDP. There is no way of using the same DAC/output or anything else.

We are interested in improving our systems - just don't see rip quality as much of an issue. There are far bigger influences.

Steve

quote:

We are interested in improving our systems - just don't see rip quality as much of an issue. There are far bigger influences.

Like turning off the equaliser in iTunes!!
Guys, stop hijacking my thread. With your help I found what was screwing up my mac's digital output. If you want to argue ad infinitum about ripping, do it elsewhere.

Goodnight

Keith

I didn't think anyone owned threads on this forum.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Steve S1:
Another strange post Patrick.

You can't compare a rip's quality by comparing one to the CD played on a Naim CDP. There is no way of using the same DAC/output or anything else.
Steve

I was only referring to the below quote by Exiled, when I said anything about comparing a rip to a CD. and you are right, it had NOTHING to do with comparing rips.



"Originally posted by Exiled Highlander:
I do know that I cannot reliably tell the difference between a WAV or Apple Lossless file ripped using iTunes with error correction vs the original CD when replayed through the same system. "

It sounds like he is doing comparisons between the two?????

I have not done such comparisons.

I am still unclear where the confusion and contradictions come from.

Are you guys just going to throw out questions and comments to me without answering mine?

This should make it VERY clear.

1) Some people hear errors.

2) Most dont hear differences between rips without errors. Say Itunes WAV (NO ERRORS) vs. EAC Flac rip (NO ERRORS).

3) Setting up your computer for dedicated music replay, and more importantly, recording DOES make an audible difference.

4) and this is the one brought up by exiled above.... I cannot speak to how different rips compare to different CDPs. Although Exiled said he CANNOT hear a difference at all.


If we could assume all rips are created equally, then there should be NO AUDIBLE DIFFERENCE, if played back on the EXACT same system.

BUT!!!!! Itunes cannot ENSURE an error free rip. Sorry but it is true.

If you dont care about that then whatever. Dont care. I certainly dont care how you rip.

Now if having a "known" error free rip isn't important to you, that is fine! If you cant hear them anyway, GREAT!!!!

I personally wish MP3s were tolerable for me. Unfortunately it is not the case.

If any of you would like clarification on 1,2, or 3, please ask.

4??? Ask Exiled... I dont have a Naim CDP.

If you dont care, then why bother with me?

pc, your thread is very painful, but here goes.

1) Agreed, but some think they hear it when it's not there.
2) Agreed, but some think they hear it when it's not there.
3) Agreed, but some think they hear it when it's not there.
4) Agreed, but some think they hear it when it's not there.

- Agreed, no audible difference if played on the same system.
- Agreed, iTunes will still have problems. Scratch a disk just to check?

"I personally wish MP3s were tolerable for me. Unfortunately it is not the case"

How many albums are you not playing in your collection? If you cannot live with MP3 quality, you cannot live with 99% of all recordings. I'm sorry, but that is true and sad for all of us.

We're all in this muddle together, so lets at least muddle through.

Peter

quote:

Originally posted by PMR:
How many albums are you not playing in your collection? If you cannot live with MP3 quality, you cannot live with 99% of all recordings.

What the hell are you talking about?

I dont have ANY MP3s??? Why would you assume i do?

I play EVERY album in my collection. Over 3000 strong! All ripped "properly" most to FLAC, a few older ones to WAV.

quote:

Originally posted by PMR:

1) Agreed, but some think they hear it when it's not there.

Once again. If you cannot hear errors GREAT!

If you are happy with Mac/Itunes/WAV, then more power to you!

If it was legal, I could send you a rip of Jimi Hendrix Axis Bold as Love with a read error that results in a tiny pop in the middle of a song.

So i re-ripped. No error. No pop.

I guess my ears are over sensitive.

Take care.

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
What the hell are you talking about?

I dont have ANY MP3s??? Why would you assume i do?

I play EVERY album in my collection. Over 3000 strong! All ripped "properly" most to FLAC, a few older ones to WAV.

Ok, you're missing the point.

If I was to take a GOOD recording of yours and rip to MP3 (128, 192, 320 etc), and then burn back to CD, you would have MP3 quality CD recording, right?

However, it is very likely that the good MP3 recording is still better sounding than a large proportion of you CD's that are less well recorded originally. The point I'm making is that given all CD recordings sound so different in terms of recording quality, the loss associated with MP3 (if audible) is irrelevent.

Therefore the argument not to use MP3 is a contriction of sorts, because you manage to live with much of your music collection that doesn't sound as good. In fact, there maybe CD's in your collection that were ripped from an MP3 file for convience, but you wouldn't know that or care about it.

Peter

quote:

Originally posted by PMR:

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
What the hell are you talking about?

I dont have ANY MP3s??? Why would you assume i do?

I play EVERY album in my collection. Over 3000 strong! All ripped "properly" most to FLAC, a few older ones to WAV.

Ok, you're missing the point.

If I was to take a GOOD recording of yours and rip to MP3 (128, 192, 320 etc), and then burn back to CD, you would have MP3 quality CD recording, right?

However, it is very likely that the good MP3 recording is still better sounding than a large proportion of you CD's that are less well recorded originally. The point I'm making is that given all CD recordings sound so different in terms of recording quality, the loss associated with MP3 (if audible) is irrelevent.

Therefore the argument not to use MP3 is a contriction of sorts, because you manage to live with much of your music collection that doesn't sound as good. In fact, there maybe CD's in your collection that were ripped from an MP3 file for convience, but you wouldn't know that or care about it.

Peter

Well you've lost me with that one Peter ! MP3 is a lossy format and so cannot be the same quality as the original shop bought cd. Data has been lossed, yes? And I don't comprehend why anyone would want to rip a cd to MP3 and then record a new MP3 cd ????

I think ( head on block) that PCS is saying he doesn't think MP3 quality is a good enough for him, hence all his files are FLAC. I would agree with him, and your last paragraph has me totally baffled !