I conclude that 'digital' = highest fidelity in CD recordings

Jon,


How do you know that the Techno/Ambient stuff is digital by its nature Techno is derived from analogue synths & drum machines (TR808/909) if its only stuff recorded in the 00's then it will be recorded digitally 90's stuff is more than likely analogue so what music are you referring to?


Now as much as I love Electronica its not the best judge of a systems performance or recording quality it lacks the myriad of timbre that live acoustic instruments display its like playing a animation on a LCD telly it looks great but isn't a very accurate portrayal of performance.


As I always say this is a great vinyl record recorded in analogue all the way and if you find a digital recording that is better tell me.






Dean...

quote:

Originally posted by Consciousmess:

I think the best sound from your system has to be through digitally recorded tracks

You are probably correct

Digital devotees appreciate SOUND.

Vinyl devotees appreciate MUSIC.

Hi Jon,

I understand your sentiments here but I have mixed feelings about simply declaring one the winner over the other. I do not have such a wide musical taste as you (at least for the music I buy and collect) so for the music I am mostly interested in I find my answer would be it's a little of both. Based only on my ear, personal taste, and intuition what I have found is that in general some of my finest recordings come from the 1960's and 70's. The last five or ten years seem to be doing things right again. I listen almost exclusively to "classical" music.

Of course, I can very easily find stunning recordings from the entire last half century or so (since the advent of stereo). I largely have issues with Mono as this format usually cannot represent a live musical experience well (IMHO). When you look at this in greater detail I can then further generalize that each specific label has a "house" sound but then within that I find it really depends on an array of variables such as who is the sound engineer/producer, the venue, the instrument used on so on. Some are winners and some are not so successful throughout the range of ADD and DDD recordings.

Mr. Fatcat,
I know you are ribbing Jon a little here but I'm also very confused by those who say this and actually believe it. I still use film in my camera and appreciate certain qualities about this medium (I use digital too). I also have no issues with Vinyl (except for the fact that I am currently very limited to what I can buy). Trying to separate two integral fundamentals is like saying you like and understand food at some level but you don't care how it tastes. Well, then cut out your tongue....

I believe the analogy is the same for music and sound. If one is trying to imply that one understands music at a higher or more profound level because one "says" one doesn't care about the sound I just find that argument is missing the point and has a skewed agenda. Firstly, someone shouldn't judge what I (or any one) is capable of understanding or feeling based on a desire or joy for sound as it should be. Secondly, I can't imagine any musician (who plays acoustic instruments especially) would reason that the sound isn't important to the music. To me "sound" and "music" are irrevocably connected or one and the same.

These are just my feelings on the matter.

Best Regards,
Doug

quote:

Originally posted by Florestan:
If one is trying to imply that one understands music at a higher or more profound level because one "says" one doesn't care about the sound I just find that argument is missing the point and has a skewed agenda. Firstly, someone shouldn't judge what I (or any one) is capable of understanding or feeling based on a desire or joy for sound as it should be. Secondly, I can't imagine any musician (who plays acoustic instruments especially) would reason that the sound isn't important to the music. To me "sound" and "music" are irrevocably connected or one and the same.

These are just my feelings on the matter.

Best Regards,
Doug

Nothing so pretentious I’m afraid, I don’t claim or desire to understand music. I simply prefer listening to vinyl than CD, even though my CD player presents greater detail than my turntable.
A couple of years ago at a HIFI show I walked into a room demonstrating a music server. A track I know very well started, I thought, this sounds great, a lot more detailed than my turntable. I sat down, within 20 seconds I’d walked out. I don’t like listening to a cacophony of sound, no matter how detailed.

IMO musical enjoyment has nothing to do with sound quality. It is preferable to listen to a great piece of music on an AM mono radio than a mediocre piece of music on 10k hifi system. Of course, one person’s great piece of music is the next person’s piece of shit.

quote:

I think the best sound from your system has to be through digitally recorded tracks

Absolutely correct. The entire universe is digital - time, natural sound, light, energy etc.

Analogue is pure fiction.

Just a bloody pity that a decent "analogue" master tape, transferred to vinyl and played through a good turntable, sounds soooo much better than a DDD cd played through a 555.

Sometimes the "facts" just bugger up the "theory"

Cheers

Don

If the music is great any replay medium pales into insignificance in comparison if anyone who cares about music is being honest.

ATB from George

quote:

If the music is great any replay medium pales into insignificance in comparison if anyone who cares about music is being honest.

hmmm Mrs D's Sony tranny, which she listens to in the kitchen, gives her a lot of enjoyment. But even Mrs D prefers to listen to music via the LP12/CDS2 etc and neither she (nor I) consider the difference to be insignificant.

Cheers

Don

The is a great deal of audio equipment that costs a very reasonable sum that is far better than a kitchen radio and gives every bit as much musical pleasure as such a very costly system as one based on a CDS2 [for example] to people who are first and foremost music lovers. For Hifi enthusiasts the situation is different, for as soon as something more expensive comes along all previous attempts at replay, apparently, and evidentually according to this Forum, sound broken. It is all there in the Forum archive. Try searching the word "broken" in the Hifi Room search engine!

Moderation in all things is a virtue, Don, as I am sure that you know, including how much is spent on replay ...

ATB from George

That is an interesting array of responses, and I must say that I am not suprised to hear such opinions.

I understand the points made regarding analogue, but what about issues to do with background hiss? The sound seems to float out of the speakers if it is a good digital recording and I like to think that my digital replay system is now at a level where the DAC is good enough to bring great enjoyment from the sound (CDS3+555PS).

I'm not going to start this into a CD vs vinyl debate as that has gone on far too frequently and people are fixed in their respective camps, but the clearest music has to be from digitally mastered material.

I guess the type of music is also an issue. I really like ambient techno and typically this is from expensive synthesisers. I also love classical music, but must say that the versions I have of pieces like Swan Lake and Nutcracker are far better if they have the 4D mastering, compared to the AAD from 1960s.

I don't know if others agree, although a doubt many do!!!

Regards,

Jon

quote:

I also love classical music, but must say that the versions I have of pieces like Swan Lake and Nutcracker are far better if they have the 4D mastering, compared to the AAD from 1960s.

Fascinating in a frustrating way as it tells me, as a reader, nothing about what is better about the 4D recordings than those ADD or ADD transfers of older recordings.

Perhaps you woould be kind enough to explain this for me in purely musically significant terms please.

If it is purely a Hifi phenomenon, then I personally have zero interest though please still post as no doubt many here will still be interested to read it, but anything that helps elucidate the original intenstions of the composer and performer[s] in a recording of great music remains a great interest of mine.

ATB from George

quote:

Moderation in all things is a virtue, Don, as I am sure that you know,

i think that depends on who is doing the moderating, George.

The last items I changed in my home music system (appart from new cartridges and cables) were the power amps when I bought a pair of second hand 135s about 10 years ago from Simon at Audio T in Reading. They replaced a 250 (which I still have, and which doesn't sound broken). I also changed from a cds1 to a cds2 when Naim knew they were running out of cds1 transport modules and felt they had got the cds2 sounding almost as good as the original cds1.

Cheers

Don

I would think that your system might be described as rather moderate then - modest even. Good show!

It is surely not much better than my admirably moderate set at that rate!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by fatcat:

IMO musical enjoyment has nothing to do with sound quality. It is preferable to listen to a great piece of music on an AM mono radio than a mediocre piece of music on 10k hifi system. Of course, one person’s great piece of music is the next person’s piece of shit.

I strongly agree, and strongly disagree.

I feel fortunate in that if, as you say, the music is great, I can connect with it no matter the quality of the playback system. So in that sense, I agree.

On the other hand, music is literally sound. High quality sound production (or reproduction) can impart its own emotional weight ... I can be deeply moved by the sound of music, amplifying the emotional power of the music.

A case in point (and a neat way to work a plug into the conversation) is my own brand new album, Since Forever, just released right on this here Naim label. I can get a lot of pleasure and emotional satisfaction listening to it in my car, or on the kitchen boom-box, or on my very average consumer home stereo rig. But when I heard the high-resolution 24bit/96k version on engineer Ken Christianson's personal system (all high-end Naim stuff, Quad speakers), it was nothing short of a revelation ... the cliché come to life of feeling as if the actual musicians were standing right in front of you ... no sense of separation between music and reproduction, seamless audio reality. Blew my little mind right out of my skull.

All best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by Consciousmess:



I'm not going to start this into a CD vs vinyl debate as that has gone on far too frequently and people are fixed in their respective camps, but the clearest music has to be from digitally mastered material.


I don't know if others agree, although a doubt many do!!!

Regards,

Jon

Jon,

I don't really understand how you come to this conclusion other than if clarity is the be all end all of you music appreciation then well yes digital can be clear/transparent, but music replay & appreciation is made up of much more than clarity namely timing, timbre, harmonics, melody, articulation, counterpoint and other things I'm not familiar with (Fred & Georges department) but ultimately enjoyment and for me there is no better enjoyment than that which comes from full analogue productions including tape hiss. Also when you put a digital recording on vinyl you'll not need to down sample like you do with CD. I have compared a few CD & Vinyl editions of the same album and the vinyl always wins. You really need to get out and hear a great analogue setup you may change your mind.



Dean..

I take your point, Dean, genuinely!!

I'm not saying I would be adverse to good quality vinyl, but the issues that prevent my going down that route is the non-ownership of any records by me and the expense required to pay to 'match' my digital replay.

But again, I didnt dtart this thread to compare and contrast CD and vinyl!!!!

A CD I was listening before was clearly a musician playing the instrument as I could hear him taking a breath before each note. Now the CD (Serenity) is recorded DDD and has such clarity as well. Am I missing something?? The sound hologram just hovers away from the speakers and it is as though the speakers didnt exist.

Now for most listeners this is what we want, and for me hearing the background hiss is a no no. I will grant something, however, there are one or two tracks I have where the insruments sound 'plasticky' (if that's a word) and I suspect this ties in with some of the posts on this thread!!

Regards,

Jon

quote:

If it is purely a Hifi phenomenon, then I personally have zero interest

For a man with zero interest you seem to be the most highly opinionated contributor to this forum George. (Hint: the clue is in the name of the forum)

Dear Chris,

One thing I have found is that if one challenges peoples' pre-conceptions with a logically made point they will join a debate.

Hifi really does not interest me, though musical replay does, because I love music and have many recordings of some of the great music and often in recordings that quite challenge replay equipment.

It is no good being half-baked and mealy mouthed - sitting on the fence over things. I can add that it does not interest so much to be agreed with as it does to get people to think outside their own set of pre-conceptions, even if they return to them afterwards. I suspect that very few find themselves able to agree with me on everything that I think, write here. But as the disagreements usually take the form of a polite sort of debate or discussion then my aim to promote thought rather than sheep-like following of conventional wisdom would appear to have had some success!

State a case and be ready to debate, to be disagreed with, perhaps - that is how I work!

Mostly a success for me is if people might go and get an audition as the result of the provoked thoughts, rather than just follow conventional wisdom and accept that something is better because most people on the Forum say that it is!

My standpoint is that replay should bring to the fore the qualities I primarily would call msucial - rhythm, pitch, dynamic [macro and micro though micro is much more significant in expressive terms], tone colour and certainly not least an abilty to present the blend of musical lines in a way that preserves the musical balanced in a lucid fashion.

No other aspects are significant for me.

The aspects I call Hifi are those discussed here which are not contained in my requirements for replay contained in the previous paragraph.

I am sure that from this you will understand that I consider stereo as an irrelevance at best and potentially an extremely damaging developement in replay compared to mono ...

Hint: the clue is in the name of the forum, which is I believe in this part called the Music Room!

Okay, I certainly post in the Hifi Corner when I can say something that connects the only slightly converging worlds of Hifi and Music!

ATB from george

quote:

Originally posted by Consciousmess:
I take your point, Dean, genuinely!!

I'm not saying I would be adverse to good quality vinyl, but the issues that prevent my going down that route is the non-ownership of any records by me and the expense required to pay to 'match' my digital replay.

But again, I didn't start this thread to compare and contrast CD and vinyl!!!!

A CD I was listening before was clearly a musician playing the instrument as I could hear him taking a breath before each note. Now the CD (Serenity) is recorded DDD and has such clarity as well. Am I missing something?? The sound hologram just hovers away from the speakers and it is as though the speakers didn't exist.

Now for most listeners this is what we want, and for me hearing the background hiss is a no no. I will grant something, however, there are one or two tracks I have where the instruments sound 'plasticly' (if that's a word) and I suspect this ties in with some of the posts on this thread!!

Regards,

Jon

Jon,

Why start a thread with a declaration that what you have concluded to be the outcome of an old argument is in fact an opinion derived from your sole listening to one form of the recording medium then? You cannot declare something and not open up an old argument can you. Now if it is just personal choice I don't have a problem but you seem to stating it as a fact without considering the other forms of recording that exist. You seem to be justifying your preference rather than just enjoying it and not all analogue recordings have tape hiss on them I'm spinning Aphex Twin - Classics and no tape hiss to be heard anywhere and this is music recorded on the most basic home studio equipment back in the late 80's. You have spent an awful lot of time and money putting a system together and not at one time did you not think to even listen to a Turntable, you never know it might be a bigger upgrade than a 552 there is a reason why analogue is still around and bands are putting out albums on vinyl.



Dean...

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:


I can add that it does not interest so much to be agreed with as it does to get people to think outside their own set of pre-conceptions, even if they return to them afterwards.

ATB from george

George,

When I read your posts many of them are actually doing what you claim you are seeing in others and trying to change via debate, I think thats called irony isn't it?



Dean...

quote:

But when I heard the high-resolution 24bit/96k version on engineer Ken Christianson's personal system

Thats the great thing about the Naim label (and others) is that you can download the album as it was engineered. Not downsampled for CD, not transcribed onto Vinyl. The limit then is the playback system itself. Fantastic

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:


I can add that it does not interest me so much to be agreed with as it does to get people to think outside their own set of pre-conceptions, even if they return to them afterwards.

ATB from George

George,

When I read your posts many of them are actually doing what you claim you are seeing in others and trying to change via debate, I think thats called irony isn't it?

Dean...

It might be irony if it was not a two way street.

I learn a huge amount from the Forum! Maybe more about replay rather than playing, but still a huge amount! Anyone who stops learning has died really ...

ATB from George

Jon,

a lot of digitally recorded CD or LPs do sound clean and very hifi.

I guess it depends on the genre, but lately I am discovering that old jazz or vocal mono records have something very special.

It's really hard to pin point or describe the virtues. There seems to be more naturalness and *here-ness* to them.

p.s. my mate tells me that wait another 5 years and I'll be listening to 78s on a hand-crank gramophone.

That is an interesting point, Kuma and I'm theorising why that could be....

Maybe hearing the natural analogue hiss alongside the mono evokes other things aside from hifi purity. I can imagine the hearing of classic jazz in mono brings forth the era in which the recording was done???

The analogy I pose is that the humour present in sitcoms like 'Only Fools and Horses' is only liked by ME because I associate endearing memories with it that I link to my father. Its humour in isolation and in a different context would not make me laugh!!!

Perhaps we can all relate to something like this???!!!

Would you agree with my tentative hypothesis???

Regards

Jon

quote:

Maybe hearing the natural analogue hiss alongside the mono evokes other things aside from hifi purity. I can imagine the hearing of classic jazz in mono brings forth the era in which the recording was done???

The analogy I pose is that the humour present in sitcoms like 'Only Fools and Horses' is only liked by ME because I associate endearing memories with it that I link to my father. Its humour in isolation and in a different context would not make me laugh!!!

Perhaps we can all relate to something like this???!!!

Would you agree with my tentative hypothesis???

Basically, No!

First, very few of my LPs reveal "hiss", even if it was ever on the master tape.

However, we all aasociate "nice" memories with making us feel happy in the present. I think it might be called nostalgia.

Jon, when you started this thread, were you trying to confine your comments to purely digitally archived/source material, eg cd, dvd, mp3 files etc, ie were you deliberately avoiding the challenge of other archive/source materials such as tape or vinyl. In other words were you suggesting merely that DDD cds are generally better than ADD cds and they, in turn, are better than ADD cds???

Cheers

Don

Kuma, I have Ella singing Tisket a Tasket and Pig Foot Pete on 78. I remember hearing them in late 60s when my grandfather died and we got some old family albums in the basement. We were all giggles over PFPete.

I have some old jazz recordings of NKCole, Ella, Sarah, Sinatra and they really are wonderful on vinyl. Also Timeout, something special about swing of that period and big band era.