Bach Solo Violin WOrks - A Question

Without a score [and I don't have one] it is nigh impossible to analyse exactly what Bach has done in terms of developing the ideas in this Coda-like part.

In a way, and unlike many here, even though I love music and used to play and even teach professionally, I have never had a huge interest in strict analysis.

Sometimes I find a score can help sort out what is not clear in a poor recording. I would never follow a score at a live concert! Sometimes, particularly in Bach the score can also have a visual beauty in the way that Bach's lines are like crystaline paterns, both visual and aural!

But I have never found that detailed analysis added one iota to my enjoyment of music.

Music either does or does not move me on its own. Sometimes it takes a few goes before it does so, and sometimes these toughers to crack pieces are ultimately the most pleasing and lovely for me.

But I caution about wanting to understand the music through analysis! The process of analysis can be profoundly destructive of the intented object [music, novel, short story, play, painting etc.] for some people, so that whilst one may have gained an big understanding of the mechanics, architecture, and compositional method the music goes from being mysterious and lovely to being a sort of object, no longer loved so much as admired from an even greater distance as analysis goes no way towards explaining the Spirituality of music or of the genius of the composer who manages, through sounds, to move the emotion of the listener in a way that is not explainable in a mechanical or even wordy way.

This has happened to me with works of literature, but not with music, because I recognised the risk, and I chose not to waste time analysing, but keeping on listening as the composer inintended and anticipated. I was shown analysis from an early age, and even now can pull obvious details out as the performance goes along, even without a score. Sometimes this is a damned nuisance!

My last double bass teacher once asked me if I had ever analysed a certain piece [of Mozart, the 40th Symphony, first mov't] as I seemed to show a complete grasp of the structure. I said not, but that I did know the score by heart, and loved it. He reckoned that was the more useful approach! After that I continued as I had started, simply learning the scores, but not going in for detailed analysis.

Analysis is rather important for composers, so they can work out what technique the old masters used, and so they can learn how to write greater music, but the listener [unless he is a budding composer as well] does not need to do such a thing IMO, unless of course he has learned the methods of analysis and actually wants to!

AT from George

PS: What is going on here?

The first time repeat comes at 42 seconds and the second half comes at 1.26. The second half is related to the first half, but how?

This is the Gigue from the Fifth French Suite [Suite in G Major: Finale]. The second half repeat starts at 2.24, so you get two listens to every one of the notes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gFdX1__zNc&NR=1

Now here is something to analyse if you like!

Bach's Organ Prelude and Fugue in C Major, BWV 547.

This is one of my all time favourite pieces by Bach, and if you could master every technique that he employs in Counterpoint just as well he does, then you could be the modern day JSB! And none of the great analysts of this music ever came close to Bach's mastery - here shown with such majesty and joy conbined!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzhtUR2u6Xo

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by droodzilla:
After I discovered the Brandenburg Concertos, I moved on to Bach's works for solo cello and violin. The latter became something of an obsession, and repeatedly listening to the sonatas and partitas was instrumental in shaping my love of Bach. One of the first bits to really intrigue me was the prelude of the E Major sonata. If you don't know it, here's some archive footage of Perlman:

BWV 1006 - Prelude

My question is about what happens in this performance at about the 3:08 mark, where it sounds as if the music almost turns itself inside out - or, alternatively, it screeches to a halt and seems to go into reverse gear. It's a moment in these great works that's always fascinated me, and I wonder if any of our resident classical experts can explain to me what is going on. Is there a name for this kind of manoeuvre? It sounds very distinctive so it seems like there ought to be.

Anyway, I'd be interested to read any comments on this, and look forward to being enlightened.

Thanks
Nigel

My wife and I will take a crack at it by the weekend.

It's the E Major Partita, not prelude.

Sorry, it's the Prelude that Partita No. 3 BVW 1006 starts with.

First, I dug out the score. This prelude is in 3/4, meaning it is three beats to the measure with a quarter note being a full beat.

The entire piece is four notes to the beat, excepting two adjacent measures with the first having a dotted quarter and eighth and a quarter - so that's 1.5 beats, followed by a half beat, followed by a whole beat, and the second ending with a dotted quarter and an eighth.

For the entire piece you are hearing 12 equal length notes to the measure, now you get just three longer notes of different lengths in a measure - that is dramatic. The dotted quarter is D major triad in first inversion with the dominant of the tonic on the bottom that resolves to the E major triad (tonic). That is also dramatic.

I don't know what that might be called.

He slows things up on the 7th, resolves to the tonic, then goes on his merry way.

I yanked out my Perlman and played this prelude to see if it was what you are talking about. This rhythmic change I am describing occurs at 3:08 or thereabouts as you described.

Dear Mike and Nigel,

I think the music, as listened to, get the message across in a fashion that is much more interesting than an analytical, wordy description, but that is just me!

Best wishes, from George

Of course George is right, except answering this sort of question is as much fun as a crossword puzzle :-)

My wife got home, read my analysis and pronounced it a load of crap in part.

The dotted quarter is so long compared to the sixteenth notes it is dramatic, that much is true.

But the chord progression at that point is a simple 5-1, with the 5 having a seventh tacked on for drama.

The harmony issue got resolved correctly, at the piano.

I am with George in reality but I opend the boxes and listened to the performances I have by Milstein, Sitkovetsky and Mullova aswell as following the link to Perlman.

It was quite educational as a small 'snippet' from these three great violin Sonatas and Partitas in that the way each player interpreted that 'stop' just before the end of the prelude was different enough to perhaps highlight their personalities.

Of them all as you perhaps might expect Mullova makes the most dramatic thing of it actually shining a spotlight on it.
Millstein gets through this prelude a tad faster and seems to apply the brakes quite sharply but then almost casually carries forward to the last few bars of quick notes.
Perlman seems quite similar to Milstein in this repsect.
Sitkovetsky is almost peacefull in comparison. It is all there but somehow not so obvious.

At their musicanship level the key thing is that the music itself remains beautifull regardless of which of them is playing it.

regards
Geoff

Hi All. Thanks for the replies and apologies for not responding sooner; I had a minor operation earlier this week, and have been in recuperation mode since.

@George - Yes, when it comes to music, I share your reluctance to analyse things too deeply (not that I could if I wanted to). I find that having some basic knowledge (e.g. being able to recognise a fugue) helps me to find my way around a piece of music, but it does not necessarily add to the emotional or spiritual delight I take in it. Just like knowing your way around a city does not help you appreciate the beauty (or not) of its buildings. That said, my intellectual curiosity is occasionally stimulated, and the Bach violin piece is a case in point. BWV 547 is lovely; thanks for drawing my attention to it.

@Mike - Thank you for the analysis, even if it was crap in part :-) It makes sense that a sudden slowing down, after a flurry of fast notes will seem dramatic, especially when you throw a chord progression into the mix.

@Geoff - Glad you hear it too; a "stop" sounds as good a word as any to describe what happens at that point in the prelude. I will give the versions I own a listen later to see how Grumiaux and Podger handle this passage.

Now, a bonus question - what (if anything) is Vanessa-Mae doing wrong in her performance of the same prelude:

Vanessa Mae

It sounds "off" at several points, but I'm less sure I could put into words why I think that. Any volunteers?

Thanks
Nigel

I think that the Mae performance is an example of the kind of live performance any performing musician will have given on a less than stella day. It - to me - sounds both stiff and mannered all at the same time - as if the rubatto is entirely clculated beforehand. And the intonation is not quite bad, but verging on the edge of good to not quite.

She may simply have been too tired to play well.

On the other hand this mad fugue should please on every level. Piazzolla is one of my favourite modern composers.

I guess this comes from the same recital, and suffers none of the issues that seem to hover over the Bach performance!

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...BenQ&feature=related

ATB from George

Thanks George. I agree there's something stiff about the Vanessa-Mae's performance. ""Tentative" is the other word that springs to mind.

I love Piazolla. If you don't already own a copy of "Tango: Zero Hour", I urge you to get one. Gidon Kremer has also made two or three very nice CDs of Piazolla's music, And there's a lovely (and cheap) Naxos CD of Piazolla's works fot guitar and flute (solo works for each instrument first, then a number of duets) - a beguiling collection, perfect for a relaxing Sunday Morning.

As it's in a somewhat similar vein, I must also mention the "Asturiana" CD released by ECM a couple of years ago. It's a collection of Spanish and Argentinian songs, arranged for piano and viola (the latter taking the vocal part). I'm hard pressed to think of a CD I've enjoyed more in recent times. More info, and a few samples here:

asturiana

Regards
Nigel

Dear Nigel,

Catch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ext_from=PL&index=41

Asturias - Isaac Albeniz

This is great music. I have a remarkable version on accordions which goes even better, but I love this music second only to that of Bach. Well Haydn as well, but somehow music got dense and sophisticated without gain in depth after Bach [Haydn excepted]. In fact after Bach most music lacks depth.

ATB from George

quote:

but somehow music got dense and sophisticated without gain in depth after Bach [Haydn excepted]. In fact after Bach most music lacks depth.

I wouldn't put it as starkly as that but I know what you're driving at. Could it be something to do with an increased emphasis on *individual* genius (as opposed to the genius inherent in a healthy musical tradition) from a certain point in musical history?

Anyway, I can't resist the temptation to bring the thread full circle:

BWV 1006

Regards
Nigel

In European culture the last artstic element that totally culturally subsumed ther individual to the mass of the whole was the Gothic. The great Gothic Cathedrals were built over several lifetimes, even such as a relatively unified one such as Gloucester.

The names of the master stone masons and master builders are lost. They were less than the culture as a whole. Bach was a great name, but still working in the selfless tradition of the Gothics, not important of themselves [in their own opinion, or at least as they were taught] but significant to mankind, and even more importantly to thier God.

Much has been lost in the cult of the individual, for the product of the anonymous is not less individual or significant than the product of the egocentric named individual.

Except Haydn after Bach, all musicians were egocentric [including Bruckner], and the work is this dimisnished by the need to show off with empty sophistucation!

ATB from George

My wife and I have continued to look at the dramatic pause in the Prelude of the Third Partita, and think we may have found the single note that makes it sound so special.

The analysis follows :

The pause is a V-I harmonic progression, and to the V is attached a flatted 7. V is B with I being E. The flatted 7 of B is A.

The progression begins on a dotted quarter, and the flatted 7 (A) is voiced to be the highest note.

The magic lay in the A.

A flatted 7 needs resolution in the worst way. The A is the flatted 7 in B, but it is also the 4 of I (E).

The important points are that the A is the highest note, and also that it possesses two contrasting harmonic properties.

Possessing contrasting properties, the A has more forward motion than the other notes that sound with it. So the A literally pushes you into the next note.

Or at least that's the way it seems to us :-)

Heck Mike, you need to see a photo of my hair to realise why I smiled at that! At lot of life passed me by. But much too close for comfort, and hence my lack of any hair on top of my head!

I managed to play some of the big Orchestra of the Age of the Enlightenment Bach Violin Concerto set to a fellow Forum member today, and though he may not be the world's number one cheer leader for Bach, he is going to get the set I think.

It may have been a Jaw hit the floor moment!

Available on EMI Virgin as a nicely priced two CD set - sorry no vinyl as by the mid-nineties the superiority of the CD meant that serious classical releases were no longer made on LP.

ATB from George

I already have it (after a previous pointer from you), but as I explained, classical is just something I dip into very occasionally!

Great to have you here George, you're welcome anytime.

John