Naim HDX Ripping VS WAV lossless on computer

PC,

I'm really surprised that you didn't take some music with you when you demoed. Would have provided you a good opportunity to see if you heard any differences and had been able to compare Wav vs. FLAC as well.

You really need to get off the $8500 kick as the explanation for us hearing a difference.

I heard the differences before I bought the HDX and would have saved a lot of money if I had heard things differently.

There has to be an explanation. It may or may not be in the rip itself. I'm not technically versed on all of this stuff, but somewhere in the chain something is causing a difference The fact is that it can still be heard even when files are ripped to Wav/Flac with EAC.

quote:

Strangely, my local Linn vendor swears that FLAC sounds better than WAV and he cannot explain why, they have been claiming that for over a year

...given that various compression levels of FLAC can sound different.

quote:

Originally posted by JYOW:
There are all sort of theories, some are unsubstantiated and difficult to prove why, like FLAC Vs WAV. Most people claim WAV better than lossless since there is no decompression in the process. Strangely, my local Linn vendor swears that FLAC sounds better than WAV and he cannot explain why, they have been claiming that for over a year, and they are the ones with the mega bucks systems.

I personally believe that a lot of it is placebo effect.

Ripping however is another story, there are ways to rip a perfect copy from your CD, even if the CDs are slightly scratched. And there are many white papers explaining the technical methodologies. They are not rocket science, mostly just brute force approach of rereading the tracks until they read the correct data.

Old timers of computer based audio know about this and have been using Exact Audio Copy (EAC) for good measures. Whether it makes any difference is highly dependent on whether your CDs are damaged in the first place. People have experimented with various CDs and find most of the time there aren't that many errors to be fixed, in which case your iTune would rip just as perfectly. But it is good to have the insurance of a stubborn error correcting ripper like EAC.

Which brings us to the Naim ripper. I am sure Naim's implementation is well considered and rips a mean perfect copy almost all tie time. But I doubt if a Naim rip would better a properly set up EAC rip. After all both rips should be perfect. Aside from the fact that most CDs should not be that problematic in the first place and should sound the same with most rippers.

There's a bit more to it and it depends on how you feel about transport offset. I agree that properly set up EAC should work quite well but Flac being better is an odd perspective. I'm sure the difference in result is there for the dealer and the character of the additional processing appeals to them but it's still a wav file on playback as it gets decompressed and then played as wav as far as the DAC portion is concerned. That it sounds different is again the interesting part and 'placebo' is telling people that they are being irrational. It sometomes happens but not good to assume out of hand. Usually more productive to ask why.

>> Flac being better is an odd perspective..... Usually more productive to ask why.

Yes it seems everyone has their own favorite pet mystery which they cannot explain but swear by it. Said dealer is quite sure that FLAC sounds better to them, but cannot explain why.

I took that with my own fine grain of salt. To me there are so many factors out there like the weather or what knot that I am glad I cannot hear most of it.

Comparing a PC/Mac rip on a USB stick to a HDX rip on its internal hard disc is like comparing apples to oranges. A fair comparison will be able when Naim finally comes up with the software update that enables us to rip to a NAS with a HDX. Then you can rip a CD via the HDX and via a PC/Mac to the NAS...

It will be even more interesting to compare a HDX rip to its internal hard disc and a HDX rip to a NAS

You can move a HDX file to the USB stick via network sharing and play from an external source like the USB stick for comparison.

quote:

Originally posted by js:
That it sounds different is again the interesting part and 'placebo' is telling people that they are being irrational. It sometomes happens but not good to assume out of hand. Usually more productive to ask why.

I FULLY agree. It is very interesting, and worthy of study.

Maybe it is the empiricist in me, shining through my facade of flat earthiness, that attempts to posit a theory as to why.

The "i just dont know why but it is better" approach is weak.

If there is no technical, physical reason why varying rips sound different, ALL other factors being equal, I am more likely to accept placebo over "magic" anytime.

Dont be so offended by the suggestion that placebo, extremely powerful and prevalent, could be playing a part in it.

Although another guess is that there are not nearly enough unbiased individuals who have actually spent the time doing exhaustive listening over periods of time. At least not enough to claim repeatability and ubiquity.

Most people with access to an HDX either bought one, or are in the business to sell them. Both parties are far from neutral.

In the final analysis though.... who really cares. HDX owners will surely use the HDX for rips. Those who dont will use iTunes or EAC, et al.

If anyone had a problem with their current method they would have already moved on to something else. Making this discussion a moot point.

-patrick

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
PC,

I'm really surprised that you didn't take some music with you when you demoed. Would have provided you a good opportunity to see if you heard any differences and had been able to compare Wav vs. FLAC as well.

Gary,

Firstly, since I am not in the market for an HDX I couldn't really see wasting a ton of Connon's time doing that.

Secondly, my initial visit was to suss out the issue with my 180. Hearing the HDX through my 102/180 was just a bonus. And a great bonus at that. It was enlightening to hear what a world class source turns my humble kit into.

And I did take music with me..... of course. But i didnt think it was time to brings rip and original CDs are start demoing on a machine I am not going to buy. When the Naim DAC releases though......

I was able to hear my upgrade path that day though, and I am jazzed about it.

We started with my 102/180 and a CD5i. The CD5i is awesome and would be FULLY welcome in my world. I liked it more than the CDX/XPS (olive) that I borrowed from a local non-Naim dealer.

Then he slotted in the HDX. OH MY!!!!

After that we did something close to the following:
- Add Hicap2 (OH MY!)
- Swap out 180 with a 200 (nice)
- Change my NAPSC for a NAPSC2. (very slight improvement)
- Added 555ps to HDX (this is my 102???? I didnt think replay could be so wonderful)
- Changed 102 to a 282............ this is where I want to go. Beyond words.
- At some point a Powerline and Hiline were inserted into the mix.

So with 282/hicap2/napsc2/200/HDX/555ps/Allaes, I sat back and enjoyed music for a while. We swapped some discs in and out, and I think he jammed a Powerline on something..... WOW. I am sure much time passed, customers came in and out, Connon went next door with his kids.... I was firmly planted on the couch in ecstasy.

My rips are good enough for me. My ultimate A/B will be when the Naim DAC drops.

I will then be extremely interested how the two compare.

My PC with Naim DAC VS HDX with Naim DAC.

I dont really care which does the rips, nor to which codec, in the above example, provided they are both from the same source.

I have already ripped 1000s of dics, I am not going to go back and re-rip, no way. But given the files I already have, I will see if the machine feeding the Naim DAC makes an overwhelming difference in replay.

If it does the HDX would have to be considered as a "streamer/player". But still not for rips.

One of the main reason i started ripping my CDs a long time ago was to make a perfect backup to my actual CDs that are sometimes lost, stolen, "borrowed", lent, given away. To this end I want a cue file to be able to EXACTLY recreate the disc in case of complete loss.

Many of my cherished CDs are out of print, expensive, imports, extremely rare etc... And I f I am going to spend the time to rip it, I want the Cue File to be able to recreate if needed down the road.

Of course the "loss" issues are much less of a factor now that 95% of my CD are stored in boxes. But I can imagine many plausible scenarios from fire, flood, or theft that would devastate me. I would lose all of the gorgeous packaging, but I would still be able to burn an exact replica if needed or wanted.

It is an incredible bit of kit though. Sounds so amazing...

-patrick

Sounds like a great session. Those times make it easy to see the work Naim put into their range of products. The HDX is proving very successful here for people who just want to have their CD's on a hard drive and trust Naim to do the job for them.