Great Chief Conductors the BPO Never Had

I think they've made the right decisions. Jochum never could have nurtered the variety of repertoire Karajan covered, nor I doubt worked with the same energy.

Abbado always seemed an odd choice; maybe Haitink if he'd wanted the job? Rattle has proved a boon, you'd have to be decidedly po-faced to criticise really. It's high quality stuff.

EW

I'm not sure Karajan repertoire was so vast and (as I have done in other threads) I seriously dispute the notion that Jochum's was small (indeed, one of the reasons Jochum conducts the Gilels Brahms concertos is that Karajan passed on it - and I think it is correct to say he recorded the 1st concerto).

I'm not saying they made bad choices per se (though I have never cared for Karajan, and have yet to hear a recording of his I would seriously miss if it vanished from my collection), just that there were interesting people who never had the job.

regards, Tam

Celibidache was de facto Chief Conductor of the BPO immediately after WWII, while Furtwaengler was undergoing the Allies' 'denazification' process. (He was mortally offended not to be given the post permanently after Furtwaengler died and avoided the orchestra for many, many years thereafter. He returned at last to conduct the BPO in 1992 in Bruckner's Seventh.)

I believe that Keilberth was also seriously in the running after Furtwaengler died.

We are fortunate to have (via DG) Bernstein's only ever outing with the BPO, conducting Mahler's Ninth - not that I think that he was ever considered for the post, although I wonder if some of the players might have wanted to ditch Karajan for Lennie in those difficult final years after their relationship with Karajan had broken down.

Actually, I rather think that music lovers have benefited from the Vienna PO's stated policy of NOT having a chief conductor.

None of which should be allowed to detract from what a wonder a Kleiber-led BPO might have been!

Graham

I think you may be right about Keilberth.

It would have been interesting what would have happened, had the BPO become available during the late 70s/early 80s as Bernstein would surely have been a prime candidate for the job. As you say, the Mahler 9 is outstanding and how wonderful it would be to have had more from the combination.

It is interesting to note (though I don't think I'm suggesting he should have been given the job - though it would certainly have been interesting) that Mackerras only a year or two ago made his Berlin debut. Indeed, it is interesting how few such posts he's held over the years (and I do think it's a shame he was never given the Royal Opera House).

Of course, while mentioning Furtwangler, it's a great shame they never had him at Bayreuth in the 50s for anything other than that Beethoven 9th - how wonderful a Ring would have been with him in the pit and the cast of those days....

Note to self - buy some of Celibidache's recordings!

regards, Tam

Tam

By his own admission, Celibidache "conducted like a madman" in his youth. Conversely, in his last years, his tempi had become impossibly broad (ie slow!) - I've never heard any of them, but all accounts of the late Munich PO recordings available on EMI mention this. So I wonder what that 1992 Berlin PO Bruckner actually sounded like.

Fortunately, Celi had stable relationships with, first, the Swedish RSO and, second, Stuttgart SWR Orchestra between the late 60s and late 70s, which form the basis of the DG sets. These are the ones to go for.

As to Abbado, mentioned above in the context of the Berlin PO, I think he rather lost his way while he was there as chief conductor. Odd that, since his brush with death and Berlin retirement, his more recent recordings (including his guest appearances with the BPO) seem to be greeted by the superlatives that tended to greet his recordings before he took over the helm at the BPO.

So, on balance, I'm not convinced that a chief conductorship is a good thing for a conductor or an orchestra. Does staleness or overfamiliarity creep in on both sides?

Incidentally, nothing I say here should be taken as being against an extraordinary conductor/orchestra relationship hardly ever mentioned on this site: Mravinsky and his inimitable Leningrad band.

Graham

Dear Graham,

I take your point as to the merit of 'chief conductorship', though I think there have been some partnerships that have done very well (such as the Szell/Cleveland or Davis's association with the Philharmonia).

As to Abbado, I actually think some of his very finest recordings come from just before his illness (the most recent Mahler 7 and 9, and large parts of the Mahler 3 - though this is let down by a poor reading of the finale). Interestingly, I have been a little disappointed with his more recent efforts. I didn't much care for the 6th which doesn't impress me as much as his earlier Chicago reading, much less Jansons on LSO Live (especially since if they hadn't put it out as a hybrid SACD is would all have fitted on one disc). Ditto his recent 4th (though some of the problems are down to the singer not being quite right). And his Lucerne second fell a little flat.

Thanks for the pointers on Celi's recordings. Conductors seem to go one of two ways at the end - many slow down, but if anything, Mackerras's tempi seem to have got brisker.

regards, Tam

Six hours on and no further posts.

Sadly, I have to conclude that most Forum subscribers are more worried about things such as distances between Fraim shelves (and, can you believe it, how many empty shelves to have below pieces of equipment that they never use to play music on) than actual music.

Oh well!

Graham

Dear Graham, and Tam,

Rest assured I could hardly care less about the spaces in the Fraim...

It is fascinating to see the problems the BPO have had with their chief conductors. I think it right to say however (whatever the de facto possition might have been) that Furtwangler got the job in 1922, and was pushed out after an open (newspaper) to Himler anout the treatment of Hindemith in 1935, and though the orchestra was keen to have him back as chief after he was cleared of Nazi colaboration in 1947, he continued to refuse to accept the post till 1952, when he perceived the possibility that Karajan might be appointed before he died.

I don't think there was any doubt that Karajan was first choice at that time and the succession was by 1954 inevitable. From late 1953 onwards Furtwangler was having periodic problems with his hearing due to prolonged very high doses of penicilicin for recurrent pneumonia, and had to cancel a number of engagement for unpsecified health reasons as his hearing loss (sporadic though it was) had to be kept a secret.

The very last Berlin concert of the BPO under Furtwangler, in September 1954, was a tryingly tragic event. The poor man was having a bad day, and at the rehearsal there were a number of errors that totally showed that he could not hear the band clearly. The radio men gave him a headphone set, but he took them off more or less distraught, and called the rehearsal to a halt.

The concert contained Beethoven's First Symphony, and Furtwangler's Second symphony (I might be wrong about which Furtwangler Symphony), of which only the Beethoven survives. It is splendid, and hardly sounds possible if Furtwangler was suffering hearing loss, but he certainly was in the second half, which was deleted immediately because of some serious slips.

His studio work with the VPO comtinued through October without difficulty in the Valkyrie, but by them, though nothing was made public, the end must have appeared in sight.

There was a projected BPO tour of the USA in 1955, and the worry of this and his increasing hearing problems caused Furtwangler and his wife deep anguish. As she said afterwards of his last illness, 'for the first time I saw he no longer wanted to fight for life.' Karajan led the US tour.

I was never in the least disappointed about Abbado getting the post though I think that Haitink would have been marvelous or von Dochnyani (spelling sorry), but when Rattle was appointed I almost fell of my stool. I think the likely candidates have already been mentioned. My favourite would have been M Jansons

All the best from Fredrik

Dear Graham,

I fear there may sadly be some truth in that.



However, I can think of one or two further nominations for people who were passed over (though not for the BPO). I mentioned briefly above that Mackerras never got the Royal Opera house, indeed he was passed over twice (first in 1971 after Solti left - Davis got it - and again in 1987 in favour of Haitink). It is especially interesting in light of just what an grandee of the musical establishment he has now become (as the writings/celebrations of his 80th last year would indicate). Indeed, if one looks at his biography he has held remarkable few 'chief' posts (though he has run both ENO and WNO). I suspect this is down to the fact that his willingness to conduct anything (especially at short notice) meant he was not enough of a favourite of the establishment to get the job. Just as well, though, for I think his range and the time for study that not having such 'management' roles has given him, has made him the conductor he is.


Veering even further from the original point of this thread, I was saddened to learn Oramo is going to leave the CBSO soon (and struggle to believe it will have been ten years when he goes) and it will be interesting to see who replaces him (as I have been much impressed when I've heard him live). I also wonder who else was in the frame when the LSO was up for grabs recently and will be interested to see how Greigev turns out (and what happens to their label, since so many of their conductors now have exclusive contracts with others).


regards, Tam