Harsh treble - will 32.5 upgrade help[?
Posted by: bigtrak on 14 November 2002
Hi
My system consists of NAC32.5 (pulled phono boards) NAP250, HiCAP, Micromega Drive2/DAC2, IBL's. My system suffers from harsh treble. I think that my listening room is mostly to blame (wooden floors with not much in the way of soft furnishings) as I have tried all of the following to no avail....
Cable dressing including cleaning connections etc
Tightening speakers.
Experimenting with speaker position.
Chord Chrysalis & Chord Cobra Interconnect
Different CD Player - I borrowed a Naim CDi - very little difference in sound to the Micromega.
Different speakers - before I got the IBL's I had Linn Kan II's which once positioned right sounded great but only with certain types of music they to still sounded shrill at times. I think the IBL's are better and play all types of music with excitement - very similar to the Kans.
So having tried all the above I am wondering if upgrading my NAC 32.5 to NAC 72 specification (729 boards) will help any. Can anyone who has done this upgrade tell me what kind of difference to expect. My whole system really needs servicing but after reading peoples verdict of their gear after servicing i.e. more sparkle etc I am a little wary as I seem to have too much sparkle already!
Also if anyone has any other ideas I would be most grateful.
Thanks
My system consists of NAC32.5 (pulled phono boards) NAP250, HiCAP, Micromega Drive2/DAC2, IBL's. My system suffers from harsh treble. I think that my listening room is mostly to blame (wooden floors with not much in the way of soft furnishings) as I have tried all of the following to no avail....
Cable dressing including cleaning connections etc
Tightening speakers.
Experimenting with speaker position.
Chord Chrysalis & Chord Cobra Interconnect
Different CD Player - I borrowed a Naim CDi - very little difference in sound to the Micromega.
Different speakers - before I got the IBL's I had Linn Kan II's which once positioned right sounded great but only with certain types of music they to still sounded shrill at times. I think the IBL's are better and play all types of music with excitement - very similar to the Kans.
So having tried all the above I am wondering if upgrading my NAC 32.5 to NAC 72 specification (729 boards) will help any. Can anyone who has done this upgrade tell me what kind of difference to expect. My whole system really needs servicing but after reading peoples verdict of their gear after servicing i.e. more sparkle etc I am a little wary as I seem to have too much sparkle already!
Also if anyone has any other ideas I would be most grateful.
Thanks
Posted on: 14 November 2002 by mykel
Having a service will help with your problem.
The recapping will tighten up the bass and yes the highs will have more "sparkle" but will be cleaner with less harshness/hash.
What furnishings does your room have? Such as an nice area rug between you and the speakers? Finally what is your kit sitting on?
regards,
michael
The recapping will tighten up the bass and yes the highs will have more "sparkle" but will be cleaner with less harshness/hash.
What furnishings does your room have? Such as an nice area rug between you and the speakers? Finally what is your kit sitting on?
regards,
michael
Posted on: 14 November 2002 by Thomas K
Bigtrak,
What about your mains? I believe that if you describe the treble as harsh, a box upgrade won't really solve the problem -- it'll be down to something else.
Thomas
What about your mains? I believe that if you describe the treble as harsh, a box upgrade won't really solve the problem -- it'll be down to something else.
Thomas
Posted on: 14 November 2002 by bigtrak
Hi Mykel
The hifi is in our dining room so all there is is a dining table and 4 chairs, cupboards and fireplace. Putting a rug down is not really practical as the dining room is the first room you enter when coming in from outside and so would get dirty very quickley (the girlfriends words not mine)
I have built a home made support see photo, its an mdf construction that is resting on heavy duty brackets which are bolted to the wall - its really sturdy. I'm pretty pleased with it although any suggestions are more than welcome.
The hifi is in our dining room so all there is is a dining table and 4 chairs, cupboards and fireplace. Putting a rug down is not really practical as the dining room is the first room you enter when coming in from outside and so would get dirty very quickley (the girlfriends words not mine)
I have built a home made support see photo, its an mdf construction that is resting on heavy duty brackets which are bolted to the wall - its really sturdy. I'm pretty pleased with it although any suggestions are more than welcome.
Posted on: 14 November 2002 by Greg Beatty
...72/hicap/140 combo was sold on for mainly the same problem you are experiencing. Mains could have been my culprit, I don't know. But I don't think the 32.5 and the 72 differ in the treble harshness stakes. I am considering the new kit as it seems smoother to me.
- GregB
Insert Witty Signature Line Here
- GregB
Insert Witty Signature Line Here
Posted on: 14 November 2002 by bigtrak
It wont't let me upload a photo at the moment will try later.
Posted on: 14 November 2002 by bigtrak
photo
Posted on: 14 November 2002 by bigtrak
photo - try again
Posted on: 14 November 2002 by Thomas K
Nicely spotted, James!
Thomas
Thomas
Posted on: 14 November 2002 by Chris Brandon
I doubt very much that a change to the 729 boards would radically alter the described harshness.(although replacing boards in need of servicing with brand new 729 boards certainly would alter the sound).
James suggesting would be my first port of call.
My 32.5 has a total hatred of being stood anywhere near a transformer,well,basically,it hates being near any other bit of kit. Moving all kit away from each other as far as is practical proved to be very worthwile.
Regards
Chris
James suggesting would be my first port of call.
My 32.5 has a total hatred of being stood anywhere near a transformer,well,basically,it hates being near any other bit of kit. Moving all kit away from each other as far as is practical proved to be very worthwile.
Regards
Chris
Posted on: 14 November 2002 by bigtrak
Hi
Thanks for your comments. I was trying to get the 32.5 as far away as possible from the HiCAP and 250 I didn't really consider the DAC as a possible culprit. So would the best order be (bottom to top) 250, HICAP, DAC, TRANSPORT, 32.5? I'll give it a try
Thanks
Thanks for your comments. I was trying to get the 32.5 as far away as possible from the HiCAP and 250 I didn't really consider the DAC as a possible culprit. So would the best order be (bottom to top) 250, HICAP, DAC, TRANSPORT, 32.5? I'll give it a try
Thanks
Posted on: 14 November 2002 by bigtrak
SteveC
I'm going run the rug idea past the missus again although I don't hold out much hope! Shes not the most supportive when it comes to my HiFi "bloody black boxes" is I think what she calls them.
I'm going run the rug idea past the missus again although I don't hold out much hope! Shes not the most supportive when it comes to my HiFi "bloody black boxes" is I think what she calls them.
Posted on: 15 November 2002 by Eric Barry
Aside from setup issues, I find my 72 is better than my recapped/729/32-5 primarily in the treble, which is smoother and airier. The 72 boards tighten the sound, but I wouldn't say they alone make the treble less harsh. So if that's the problem, I'd suggest a 72, and selling your 32-5.
--Eric
--Eric
Posted on: 15 November 2002 by Markus
Bigtrak,
Can you describe your problem in a bit more detail? Is it at all volumes or only when you're cranking it up a bit? If it happens mainly at loud volumes then you could simply be sonically overloading your room.
Have you tried any other speakers in your system, other than the Kans? Can you do so? I ask partly because I've found the IBL's to be a bit bass-light and wonder if part of what you are hearing is associated with the overall balance...
Markus
Can you describe your problem in a bit more detail? Is it at all volumes or only when you're cranking it up a bit? If it happens mainly at loud volumes then you could simply be sonically overloading your room.
Have you tried any other speakers in your system, other than the Kans? Can you do so? I ask partly because I've found the IBL's to be a bit bass-light and wonder if part of what you are hearing is associated with the overall balance...
Markus
Posted on: 16 November 2002 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by bigtrak:
I was trying to get the 32.5 as far away as possible from the HiCAP and 250 I didn't really consider the DAC as a possible culprit. So would the best order be (bottom to top) 250, HICAP, DAC, TRANSPORT, 32.5?
Brief test? Get a small coffee table, put the 32 on it, and place it as far to the left of the system as the cables will let you.
Also, I have to admit to being a 'non-ferrous weenie boy', and find that any steel near to my Naim stuff will upset the sound, making it harsh and lacking depth.
Try removing the two CD boxes (which look like they're steel cased) onto that coffee table, and put the 32 on top of the existing rack. Try to make sure it's not directly above the Hicap, as that has the worst effect (offset it to the left or right).
One other thing - try moving the whole rack another couple of feet away from the steel radiator, if you can.
Regarding a service - this will make the sound cleaner, don't worry about it making the situation worse. It may very well be your main problem.
cheers, Martin
Posted on: 16 November 2002 by AussiePete
Hi Bigtrak,
on seeing the photo of the rack I would suggest to first try to get some isolation between the components and the rack - although things look a bit tight.
I suppose you could also borrow a reasonable rack from a dealer for home demo and give this a try.
Something that worked well for me was to change the power cables and/or put in a seperate earth spike. Both of these changes seem to affect the "grunge" in the treble more than any other area.
Hope this helps,
Pete
on seeing the photo of the rack I would suggest to first try to get some isolation between the components and the rack - although things look a bit tight.
I suppose you could also borrow a reasonable rack from a dealer for home demo and give this a try.
Something that worked well for me was to change the power cables and/or put in a seperate earth spike. Both of these changes seem to affect the "grunge" in the treble more than any other area.
Hope this helps,
Pete
Posted on: 16 November 2002 by Craig B
Bigtrak,
As much as I love my IBLs, I don't think that I could get on with them in a room such as yours without some acoustical treatments.
As a simple test of your rooms acoustics, clap your hands together loudly whilst standing near the middle of the room. Listen to the decay of the sounds reverberation. Does it die away quite rapidly or is there a noticable echo?
Unless the sound dies out quite rapidly a speaker that rides the edge as closely as IBLs do will end up sounding way OTT no matter what you do to fine tune your 'bloody black boxes'.
Possibly your girl friend would agree to having a small area rug beneath the dining table were she to have an opportunity to hear what an improvement it makes to both your enjoyment of the music. A nearby carpet dealer may be willing let you try one at home without obligation. If it works for you then consider having it treated with a stain protectant such as 3M Scotch Guard.
I've a feeling that after your room acoustics have been seen to on even this rudimentary level, the other suggested tweaks will allow you to fine tune things further.
Good luck,
Craig
As much as I love my IBLs, I don't think that I could get on with them in a room such as yours without some acoustical treatments.
As a simple test of your rooms acoustics, clap your hands together loudly whilst standing near the middle of the room. Listen to the decay of the sounds reverberation. Does it die away quite rapidly or is there a noticable echo?
Unless the sound dies out quite rapidly a speaker that rides the edge as closely as IBLs do will end up sounding way OTT no matter what you do to fine tune your 'bloody black boxes'.
Possibly your girl friend would agree to having a small area rug beneath the dining table were she to have an opportunity to hear what an improvement it makes to both your enjoyment of the music. A nearby carpet dealer may be willing let you try one at home without obligation. If it works for you then consider having it treated with a stain protectant such as 3M Scotch Guard.
I've a feeling that after your room acoustics have been seen to on even this rudimentary level, the other suggested tweaks will allow you to fine tune things further.
Good luck,
Craig
Posted on: 27 November 2002 by bigtrak
Hi
Thanks for all your replies. I am sorry I have got back to you sooner but I've been away from home.
Anyway I've tried moving the pre amp as far away from everything as possible but although I could detect a subtle difference the problem was far from cured. The same I found with rugs etc a difference but not a cure. I tried changing the speakers, I have a cheapo set of mission speakers which I tried and they showed exactly the same problem. So I am back to thinking that my kit might need a service. I emailed Naim about the problem and here's there reply.......
"The treble can start to sound harsh when Naim equipment requires servicing. It can also generally affect the bass region also, the bass becomes woolly i.e. loses its kick/slam to bass notes. The treble becomes harsher/shriller especially on female vocals for example, high notes can break up around the edges.
If this description fits in with what you are experiencing then a service is necessary.
The Filter u/d kit for the 32-5 would not necessary solve your problems and is relatively expensive that you may want to consider buying second hand a NAC 72? It is quite possible that you can spend around £230 in servicing & updating your 32-5."
You can't fault Naims service department and customer care. I received this reply a day after I sent my email!
The description Naim use is exactly the problem I have and so I have bought a serviced 72 which should arrive soon.
In the mean time I will get the other kit serviced and see what happens - fingers crossed!
I will also look into getting a separate mains spur as I have noticed a difference in sound depending on what time of day I use my kit - it alsways seems to sound better in the evening. I am assuming that this is because the Electricity Companies don't get such a hammering in the evenings and so the supply isn't as "dirty". Is this correct as I have no idea about this kind of thing?
Anyway thanks again for your help.
Thanks for all your replies. I am sorry I have got back to you sooner but I've been away from home.
Anyway I've tried moving the pre amp as far away from everything as possible but although I could detect a subtle difference the problem was far from cured. The same I found with rugs etc a difference but not a cure. I tried changing the speakers, I have a cheapo set of mission speakers which I tried and they showed exactly the same problem. So I am back to thinking that my kit might need a service. I emailed Naim about the problem and here's there reply.......
"The treble can start to sound harsh when Naim equipment requires servicing. It can also generally affect the bass region also, the bass becomes woolly i.e. loses its kick/slam to bass notes. The treble becomes harsher/shriller especially on female vocals for example, high notes can break up around the edges.
If this description fits in with what you are experiencing then a service is necessary.
The Filter u/d kit for the 32-5 would not necessary solve your problems and is relatively expensive that you may want to consider buying second hand a NAC 72? It is quite possible that you can spend around £230 in servicing & updating your 32-5."
You can't fault Naims service department and customer care. I received this reply a day after I sent my email!
The description Naim use is exactly the problem I have and so I have bought a serviced 72 which should arrive soon.
In the mean time I will get the other kit serviced and see what happens - fingers crossed!
I will also look into getting a separate mains spur as I have noticed a difference in sound depending on what time of day I use my kit - it alsways seems to sound better in the evening. I am assuming that this is because the Electricity Companies don't get such a hammering in the evenings and so the supply isn't as "dirty". Is this correct as I have no idea about this kind of thing?
Anyway thanks again for your help.