Tuner Questions

Nearly any car would run better on Premium......


I have used indoor and outdoor types over the years.
There is no reason to think that an indoor could/would take the place of a high quality multi element aerial.

Still, there is no reason to compromise on tuner quality. You never no.......Your situation for the aerial might change.....

Regards,

Marc

MBM:

I would check out the Tuner Information Center for info on tuners. There is a lot of good information about tuners there. Especially vintage analog tuners which are usually better than today's digital one's. There is also information about antennas both exterior and interior.

Arthur Bye

dear MBM, I live on Long Island and I purchased my Nat 01 tuner from Ears Nova in Great Neck. They had me call a company called Antenna Systems who installed a roof antennae I think by a company called Channelmaster. It has about an 8 ft span and is not nearly as obtrusive as the Ron Smith aerials appear to be. In short, it works very well and my 01 sounds good enough that I don`t mind switching off my CDS2 to listen to the radio. The people that installed my antennae were very professional and seemed to take a nice interest in getting me to enjoy my tuner. If you get a good tuner such an a Naim, I would definitely go for the roof antennae. I would go so far as to say that I wouldn`t spend the money on a quality tuner unless I were getting a roof-mounted antennae. Antennae Systems phone number is516-741-6818). By the way, where in NY do you live? If you live in Manhatten in a hi-rise I am not sure what your antennae options will be. Let me know, david

My Dynaco FM-5, purchased in 1978 was my first intro to 'source first'. The literature for that inexpensive tuner stated categorically that a good antenna was needed for the FM-5 or anyother tuner to work up to its potential.

Having said that, I get good reception via my Magnum Dynalab whip antenna placed in a corner of my apartment - but I'm only 10 miles from the transmitting antennae of most of the stations I listen to. I just wish I could install a roof aerial to get that ONE station that's 30 miles away....

Regards.

Phil

I get away with using a Magnum-Dynalab ST-2 whip antennae indoors with an NAT02 mainly because the stations worth listening to in my area are the locally rebroadcast CBC Radio 1 and 2 (the Canadian equivalents of your PBS, but with the balls to diss the federal government as appropriate).

Inadequate gain or multipath distortion haven't been problems (despite the single element and omni-directional nature of the ST-2s receive pattern) as I am in line of site of the transmitter and well away from the city core with its tall office towers.

If your conditions are not very similar, then the combination of an ST-2 into a Naim tuner may not suit unless you are able to mount it high up on your roof or chimney (possibly horizontally at an angle perpendicular to the line of sight direction to the transmitter to make it somewhat directional - albeit with a wide dipolar acceptance angle).

I have many tuners and no doubt that a suitable antenna is a necessary component appropriate to ones geographic location.

Regardless, the bottom line when it comes to considering such an expensive tuner should be whether or not the potential sound quality available from your preferred station(s) is worth pursuing.

That should really be the only reason for bothering IMO.

Craig

Thanks so much for the excellent feedback.

It sounds like several of you would not recommend the investment in a Naim tuner - which probably would cost more than most brands - unless a good outdoor aerial could be used. I just don't think I could swing that in my situation. Although I want a good tuner, it is my third choice source (with CDs and then LPs getting most of the action). Also, the missus already has been extremely accommodating regarding my stereo purchases and essentially taking over the living room for listening purposes -I just can't see the installation of an outdoor aerial contributing to my marital bliss at this point. (I'd rather promote harmony until I can swing a CDX2 .)

It sounds like a Magnum-Dynalab whip antenna could work well indoors. Perhaps a Magnum-Dynalab tuner also would work well for my needs (reasonable proximity to most desired stations) if I can't find a used Naim tuner at a low price. Given my inability to use an "appropriate" outdoor aerial, it doesn't sound like I should spend a ton of money on an expensive Naim tuner and then handicap it with an indoor antenna.

If I'm missing something, please let me know. Otherwise, thanks for the feedback. Greatly appreciated. MBM

MBM:

You can actually buy a very good tuner for very little money. I see them for sale in Audiogon and Ebay all of the time. The old Sansuis, Tandbergs, Onkyos, and some others can be quite good with a tune up.

Naim tuners have a disadvantage in the US where sensitivity (for distant stations) is valued over sound quality. They are not that good at picking up distant stations in comparison to the rest of the field. That's why a good antenna is needed. On the other hand, once a Naim tuner can pick up a station it locks onto it like a dog with a bone and produces and excellent sound quality. Linn and other UK tuners are pretty much the same. I guess that's because the UK is so much smaller than the US. If you're in an urban area with a lot of stations the Naim tuner is great. If you're out in the country with a lot of very distant stations you may want to consider others.

Arthur Bye

Arthur suggested;

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I would check out the Tuner Information Center for info on tuners. There is a lot of good information about tuners there.

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Arthur,
You obviously didn't read their "review" on the NAT-01!

That forum does have a lot of good info, especially on DXing. That's how I found them about 3 years ago. However, it also has some of the most bogus info I've ever read regarding hi-fi.

Specifically, as regards this thread, about antennas. TIC has a well regarded member who makes his own antennas and sells them via the forum. I've listened to his products and they are below average in quality. That forum in general considers formulas and design type important, yet the materials used to construct them is considered inconsequential.

Also, most TIC members have very poor hi-fis (not Round-Earth, but low-fi) I cannot believe they hear any difference at all.



That said, a good tuner that is musical doesn't necessarily mean expensive. An old Sansui or Kenwood tuner with an indoor dipole can be quite good and be had at second-hand shops for the price of a few CDs. Also, old receivers are frowned upon by the TIC group, yet many old classic high power Japenese 70s receivers have big power supplies. I have successfully unplugged the internal pre/power section and used just the FM section with that massive power supply to great success.

I have been a big fan of the Magnum Dynalab ST-2 whip antenna for many years. I've used it inside, outside, and up high outside. The sound quality of this antenna is the best I've heard (I still haven't heard a Ron Smith!). I have several FM antennae on my roof and even though several are on rotators, the sound is less good. A good directional multi-element antenna cannot be beat for focusing on specific distant channels, as well as filtering out neighboring stations. But the ST-2 sounds better!

My advice? Buy an ST-2. You can use it inside, in the attic, and outdoors. It will grow with you. It is also very unobtrucive outside, and doesn't need a rotator. Partner it with a used Japanese FM tuner or receiver. If you itch for better performance, buy a Creek, or even a Naim.

Even though you can hear the advantage of a Naim or Creek with an indoor dipole, it is not good VFM. An NAT-01 IMO, sounds better with a dipole than anything else with an outdoor aerial. Consider the cost though!

Also, use the highest quality cable possible. I use RG-6 satelite coax. I am so FM nerdy, I have actually climbed on the roof and compared several cables. I would rate cable quality a close second to antenna choice. A poor wire will reduce signal strength especially on long runs. Like interconnects, it also changes the sound.

Ron The Mon,
FM Freak

Simon said;

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There is a great Seattle jazz station (KPLU) that I have never been able to pick up with many iterations of tuners. Just to add to my frustration, my wife is often able to pick it up in her car as she drives around town!

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Simon,
Buy the same car radio your wife has, or a similar model with the same tuner section. A 12-volt adapter and car antenna will only set you back about $25. The only complication is that some car stereos don't have a pre-out and you need to connect the speaker outs to your pre-amp. You'll pick up the station though!

Does KPLU broadcast on the internet? There has been a recent US law change but some stations still do it. I run an audio-out from my computer to the hi-fi.

Ron The Mon

Although I agree that a Naim tuner will perform best with an outdoor antenna, I believe that the musical qualities of a Naim tuner are worth the extra expense even when a lesser signal is used such as with an indoor antenna.

I have used an 02 with immense satisfaction in less than ideal circumstances presently with no outdoor antenna possible. In fact, I use cable to pick up KPLU which would be too far away even with an outdoor antenna (its playing right now). Yes the signal is occasionally noisy (hiss) but the musical performance of the 02 is superb even with cable. I certainly would not want to be without my 02 and rank it as one of the most important of my hifi purchases. My only regret would be that I didn't buy the 01 at the time.

Remember you buy a Naim tuner for the musical performance that it brings to life (as with all Naim gear) not the number of stations you can possibly pull in from distant places.

Paul

What about hooking up your tuner to a cable tv outlet? I have an old yamaha tuner - looks like a big 70's model with wood side panels - that I use with a magnum dynalab indoor aerial. Unfortunately I can only get KPLU - great station! - if I hook up to my cable.

Cheers,
Garth

Thanks all for the great advice. Although an outdoor aerial would be optimal, it is not a possibility in my particular situation. I was struck by how many forum members use Magnum-Dynalab's ST-2 aerial with great success, even indoors. I think I've found a future purchase.

What tuner to get is a tougher decision. After some research on the second-hand market in the States, I don't think I can swing a NAT 01 or (probably) a NAT 02 (not if I want to get my CDX2 in the next year). I'll probably opt for a used Magnum-Dynalab FT-101A, which is a highly regarded analog tuner at a more reasonable price. If I'm making what sounds to you like a horrible choice, don't worry - I'll probably agonize over this for at least another month or so and then make a spur-of-moment decision that likely will cost me more than I ever intended to spend.

A little - known fact about the Magnum Dynalab whip antenna is that although it's non - directional when mounted vertically it becomes strongly directional when laid over horizontally. You can imagine the antenna's sensitivity as a giant invisible plane perpendicular to the antenna. Mounted vertically the plane of sensitivity is parallel to the ground and equal in all directions. With the antenna horizontal the plane of sensitivity is now vertical. The horizontal antenna only "hears" stations if that plane of sensitivity is pointed at them. I confirmed this with the ST-2's designer and used it to my advantage in the northern NYC suburbs to listen to a low - powered college station 30+ miles away in central New Jersey with a 15 year old cheap Hitachi tuner.

Naimed-In-NY. I think Pioneer(f93?) and Onkyo's topmodels are quite good(not joking).Also Rotel, Nad, Creek etc. might be alternatives if you want to get away cheaply. In a higher pricerange there are also Accuphase's tuners. Maybe you can get one or two to your home and have a listen?

Good luck

Ron the Mon wrote:

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Arthur,You obviously didn't read their "review" on the NAT-01!

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Ron:

Yes, I've seen the review. If you take a few minutes and look at the review, the person who gives it is obvioulsy heavily biased towards his LT-02. I would assume anyone who reads it would take the review with a grain of salt. He dismisses some exceptional tuners with his fabulous Kenwood winning every comparison. Ridiculous.

Don Scott who is a respected reviewer of tuners gave a glowing review of the Nat-01 in Stereophile many years back. He essentially said it was the best tuner that he had ever heard. He then went on to criticize it's lack of useful features, poor sensitivity, auto mono switching, and other stuff, which I agree with. The Nat-01 is a bit too far the wrong way with simplicity.

Ignoring the obviously biased tuner shootout, the rest of the information provided, while still biased, is pretty good. Yes, it is also a bit round earth. Regardless it is still hard to deny some of the now vintage analog Sansuis, Kenwoods, Onkyos, along with some other brands were quite good.

I've got a vintage Tandberg 3001a's that is really an exceptional performer. It comes quite close to the Nat-01 in sound quality yet offers lots of features if I want to pull in distant stations, DXing, etc. Usually this is at the expense of sound quality, but I appreciate having the choice.

The Nat-01 is very good for what it does, but it does not offer everything. I also use a Linn Kremlin for channel surfing. It's digital and has a remote. No, the sound is clearly not as good as the Nat-01 but it sure is convenient. When I find a station I like I switch over to the Nat-01.

In the end analog beats out digital pretty handily.

It's a bit sad though. In my area there are over 40 stations that I can pull in. Just 2 of them offer uncompressed broadcasts. That's pretty pathetic. We lost out only classical station here a few years back. They were compressed broadcasts too!

Arthur By

Naimed-in-NY,
Do not buy a Magnum Dynalab tuner if you value sound quality. They are among the most uninvolving FM tuners around; boring! Many tuners are very good at reception of distant stations at the expense of the music. In order for a tuner to pull in really distant stations, it must use narrower filters. Some tuners try to excell at both by having a Local/Distant switch which alternates between filters. However, the switching circuitry also degrades the sound.

If you are buying new, the Creek is the one to beat.

Ron The Mon,
FM Freak

Arthur said:

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It's a bit sad though. In my area there are over 40 stations that I can pull in. Just 2 of them offer uncompressed broadcasts. That's pretty pathetic. We lost the only classical station here a few years back. They were compressed broadcasts too!

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This trend seems to be turning around. Here in Detroit, a few years back, every station was compressed, even the small independents. I've now found that as stations are updating their equipment, they are opting not to compress the broadcasts. The main reason for compression is to increase distant reception. What actually increases distant listening more is increased transmitter height. Most of the stations here have been installing new taller antennas and locating them in areas which allow better distant transmission. The reason? They realize that a taller antenna increases listeners and they are able to finance it by combining cell-phone transmitters on the same antenna tower. It is cheaper for the phone companies to put a transmitter on an existing tower, so everyone benefits.

Also, in the past few years the US laws changed which previously only allowed a company to own one radio station, one TV station, and one newspaper. Now companies are buying several radio and TV stations in the same market and sharing transmitting facilities. This saves them money and the good news for us is newer, better sounding technology.

A way to help change your present situation is to e-mail and complain about the poor compressed quality. The engineers want good sound too. By complaining, you arm them with valid concerns.

I've made good friends with an engineer at a local TV station because of this. I was concerned about the poor quality of a certain TV station. It was mounted on the same tower as two other stations that came in crystal clear. So I e-mailed the station and after a few mails, he came to my house and helped me set-up my antenna "properly". I used a rotator but it turned out my antenna's azimuth (and zenith) were off. I had to use a shim to point my antenna at a higher angle. Most of my local stations are very close which means my very directional antenna was aimed near the base of the towers. BINGO! Now all my local TV and FM stations get perfect reception.

I've since e-mailed several engineers and found they all answer e-mails and are very eager to help.

Another improvement in broadcasting has to do with the way the actual broadcasts are fed to the tower. Often, DJs are in a remote office building and their signal is routed to the tower. Sometimes this is via phone lines! Even if a broadcast is uncompressed, the signal to it is. Now most stations are using better air transmissions.

Another thing I've noticed big improvements in is syndicated shows. Sometimes these are taped, sometimes live. My favorite sydicated radio show, which sounds fantastic, is "Little Stevens Underground Garage". Not sure if the music is to your taste, but the sound quality is A1.

BTW, is your NAT-01 connected to your 4-pack active Kans? I ask because you previously mentioned your Kans are in the basement. I absolutely love the sound of FM through my Kans. I could listen to it all day long. Actually, I do!

Ron The Mon,
FM Freak

Ron:

Thanks for all the info. Interesting stuff. I guess I should get in touch with some of my local stations. There's not too many to get ahold of though. There are really a lot of lousy stations out there just playing the same top 40 tunes of whatever specialty venue they have. Even the classical music station resorted to top 40 classical before it died off.

Fortunately I am in an open urban area on high ground with few problems. For the most part I have line of sight to the majority of my broadcasters. A simple Ron Smith aerial with rotor works quite well for most local stations. The Kremlin helps out with reception as it has a digital strength meter. Lets me figure out exactly where to point things.

Yes, I've tried the Nat-01 on Kans. You're right, it really does a nice job with them. It's about as good as Kans can get. I've kept the Nat-01 on my main systems though(now NBL's, they need taming too) and put the Tandberg on the basement system. The Tandberg is a very good tuner with a very good sound. Probably the equal of a Nat-02. It easily betters my Kremlin which is about as good as digital gets. The Tandberg's nice for messing around and trying to pull in distant stations. It also helps you understand all of the trade-offs with having a tuner that gives you a lot of choices. I managed to find a few semi-local college stations that I didn't know I could get.

I've also been tempted to get a narrow field APS antenna as it seems to spec out a lot better than the Ron Smith. I'd like to be able to get NYC from Philadelphia (90 miles).

The active Kans have been a treat by the way. Now I'd like to get them working in a less bright location. My basement is all concrete. I'd also like to try the Neodymium tweeters as well. Maybe on Kan II's as I've now got them spare. I'd just about gave up on them before. Seemed like all they wanted to do was honk and sound nasty.

Arthur Bye

Arthur said:

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There are really a lot of lousy stations out there just playing the same Top-40 tunes of whatever specialty venue they have. Even the classical music station resorted to Top-40 classical before it died off.

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This is also where e-mailing a station becomes important. Saying you are dissatisfied with a radio station's quality is one thing but saying you dislike their programming really perks up their ears.

I realized how important this was about six months ago when my local classic rock station was playing a "Classic Rock A-Z" which was all listener requests and about 3000 songs. This was a station I rarely listened to, but the A-Z thing got me hooked. They played so many good songs that I hadn't heard in decades! Then right after they finished with Ziggy Stardust, they went right back to the same Boston, Led Zeppelin, and other repetative crap songs.

That night I e-mailed the station and found I was not alone; they received hundreds of complaints! The station now actually takes requests and have initiated other program changes from listener's ideas. The result is that the station's ratings are up!! Believe me they listen.

Right before the Iraq invasion, my local Public Radio station had a few rebel DJs who were using their "music" programs as a platform for their own anti-war agenda. I e-mailed the program director and told her I had beeen a regular contributor for over 20 years and how upset I was. I explained that it was entirely inappropriate, I was angry, and will not be donating money this year. I also mentioned the other stations I'd been listening to instead as a boycott to the station.

I received a polite e-mail back and the station has eliminated ALL political commentary from music shows (it's still prevalent on "news" programs though).

Classical radio is an entirely different kettle though. The only classical I listen to, which are good programs, are features on variety stations. Suggesting that an easy listening station play a classical segment on weekends or at night is a good idea. Perhaps even mentioning a favorite past host will help.

When you e-mail about selection of music, be sure to mention a few things:

Your hi-fi. State how you listen to FM for hours at a time, and especially mention that your outdoor aerial and tuner are so good, you can pick up stations farther away (mention their call letters). Radio stations hate it when their competition is complimented.

Impart your demographics. For example, "I also listen from my office, I am X-years old, buy lots of records, etc." When they know they're losing their core audience, that's worse.

Ron The Mon,
FM Freak

P.S.
Don't buy an APS antenna, they are VERY overrated on reception and the music reproduction is poor. The first time I installed one, I couldn't stop laughing at the build quality. You would be better off buying an antenna tower and getting your Galaxy higher. 2-way radio shops sell better FM antennas as well as towers. They are also much better at giving local advice which pertain to your geographic conditions. Don't be put off by the fact those type shops specialize in CBs and short-wave. They also have the best advice on FM and often have clubs.

Ron: Thanks for all the good advice, especially about the APS antenna. I guess I've got a few radio stations to get ahold of.

Arthur Bye

i live on the 38th floor exactly on the shores of lake michigan in downtown chicago,one of the few cities in the u.s. with good eclectic selection of radio stations.superior to los angeles and new york(former homes) in variety and just good music.problem is i have a powerful public station across the street at navy pier for those of you with good geography knowledge.you can hear this station on your brass bed without a tuner.for most stations i use a magnum-dynalab st-2,but for those stations at the bottom end of the dial(all non profits and college stations)i connect the worst and cheapest Radio Shack antenna to my nat01.i am so pleased!

How should I position the cable coming from the antenna with regard to power cables?