Define Flat Earth

Posted by: trickytree on 25 May 2003

Dear All,

I got into a deep Hi-Fi discusion with wife the other day, (this is unusual in itself as her comments are mainly along the 'turn it down/off' variety), and found myself trying to explain what a Flat Earth system is.

After getting in a right muddle and finaly convincing her that I am completly mad I decided that I need a plan of action to liberate future funds for my next upgrade, (wife has just bought a horse box so i'm looking for a Hi-Cap at the very least)

Trouble is i've never totaly convinced her why my amplifier needs to be in two box's, the sugestion of adding a third would have a van load of men in white coats heading my way. Bare in mind that wife's idea of a Hi-Fi is the radio/cassette/cd player in the kitchen and you can understand what im up against.

That is why I foolishly launched into the whole Flat Earth explanation only to realise I hadnt a clue what it meant.

I need your help, my system needs your help.

Trickytree.

P.S....all sarcastic and/or generally unhelpfull comments will be passed directly to wife

Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Bananahead

I think that firstly we need a justification for the horse box. Seems like a one box solution should have been investigated.

Nana

Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Mike Hanson

You won't convince your wife with an intellectual diatribe about flat earth values, et al. Instead, appeal to her personal sensitivities.

Explain how everyone has their own passion: hers is horses, while yours is music and stereos. Well-reproduced music makes you feel a certain way, and the depth and breadth of that emotional response will be enhanced by the additional box, regardless of whether she can hear the difference herself. Tell her that you don't expect her to understand and feel your passion, but that you demand that she accepts that it is your passion, not hers.

If you can afford it, then there's no reasonable way for her to refute this argument.

It is not required that one of you kowtows entirely to other's beliefs. Relish your commonalities, and revel in your differences! That is the path of a happy marriage.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-
(CDS2/52/Super/2*135/RoydAlbions, and a wife who doesn't appreciate it, but who accepts it nonetheless)

Posted on: 25 May 2003 by david r

Would someone please explain the terms 'flat' and 'round earth' as used on this forum. Thanks

CDSII, 52, 135's and SF Electa Amator II's

Posted on: 25 May 2003 by trickytree

Mike,

Buying a Hi-Cap without reams of scientific justification is not the path to a happy marriage, trust me!!

Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Alex S.

Flat Earth is a term used by audio snobs who wish to sacrifice the unfashionable virtues of soundstage, imaging and detail on the altar of pace, rythm, timing and dynamics. Hopefully, the new Naim gear (as well as DV and Densen) has convinced many that its possible to have your pancake and eat it.

Alex

Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Jean-Marc

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Alves:
+ Does your preamp have a mono switch? 30
+ Have you ever accidentally left the preamp in mono but didn't notice for days? 20

LOL It happened to me no later than yesterday !

Jean-Marc

Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Mike Hanson

quote:
Originally posted by trickytree:
Buying a Hi-Cap without reams of scientific justification is not the path to a happy marriage, trust me!!

The reason for a Hi-Cap is very simple. Without it, your power amp provides all of the power for everything. This includes the power amp duties themselves, as well as the pre-amp's needs. The pre-amp circuits' signal levels are much lower than those in the power amp, and are much more susceptible to noise. Because a single power supply is providing everything, the noise generated from the power amp side adversely impacts the pre-amp side. Additionally, the power amp provides only a single 24V power rail, which compromises the pre-amp abilities further.

In sharp contrast, a Hi-Cap provides an isolated power supply, which is not impacted by the power-amp duties. It also provides two separate power rails instead of one, further improving the situation. Ultimately, the Hi-Cap does a great job of providing very consitent and quiet power, which is quite different from the power-amp's supply.

Is that justification enough?

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Posted on: 25 May 2003 by trickytree

Tom,

Just what i've been looking for, I am now enlightend!....plus..enough gobledegook to realy confuse wife thus ensuring she does'nt enter the Hi-Fi room for months!

Trickytree's F.E.P. 325....but I think I can add an extra 15 points because although I dont hoover my stylus I do blow the fluf off knowing full well i'm going to gob all over it one day.

Posted on: 25 May 2003 by trickytree

Mike,

You could sell sand to the Arabs!!....Yes that is more justification than I could possibly wish for. If your ever in Boston, (the flat one in England) could you just run that past wife, it seems to loose some credability when I say it!!

Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Tuan

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Alves:
Flat earth is a term of abuse by (round earth) people who cherish soundstage and acoustic accuracy over music.

Tom

at activesbl . plus . com

acoustic accuracy = the most realistic reproduction of live music. I thought this should be one of the principles of a good design. What the hell are we talking (BS) about here?

Posted on: 25 May 2003 by syd

quote:
Originally posted by Tuan:
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Alves:
Flat earth is a term of abuse by (round earth) people who cherish soundstage and acoustic accuracy over music.

Tom

at activesbl . plus . com

acoustic accuracy = the most realistic reproduction of live music. I thought this should be one of the principles of a good design. What the hell are we talking (BS) about here?

Accoustic Accuracy = the most realistic reproduction of a sound or sounds. Musical Accuracy = the most realistic reproduction of what turns sound or sounds into music.

If I play one note on a guitar it has acoustical accuracy. If I play lots of notes on a guitar but don't bother with timings, tuning, rhythm etc. it still has acoustical accuracy. If I play lots of notes on a guitar but ensure the guitar is tuned and the timings are correct I get Musical Accuracy.

I'll take musical accuracy any day over accoustical accuracy.

Yours in Music

Syd

Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Paul Ranson

Flat Earth: enjoys music.
Round Earth: enjoys sound.

Round Earth: I want more bass!
Flat Earth: I want to hear the bass line more clearly.

Flat Earth keywords: tune, groove, boogie woogie, I cried, I laughed.
Round Earth keywords: image, blackness, slam, impact, smooth, bass, mid, treble, mains spur, spike, stand, interconnect...

Paul

Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Tuan

quote:
Originally posted by J. A. Toon:
quote:
Flat Earth is a term used by audio snobs who wish to sacrifice the unfashionable virtues of soundstage, imaging and detail on the altar of pace, rythm, timing and dynamics.

Hallelujah! Alex, you just became my personal hero of the day.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

It seems to me many people use the "flat earth mantra" as an excuse to hide the fact that their system is fundamentally incapable of reproducing these basic properties of a recording.

quote:
Round Earth keywords: image, blackness, slam, impact, smooth, bass, mid, treble, mains spur, spike, stand, interconnect...

Taken literally, this would suggest that to be a "true" flat-earther, you would have to ensure that all your recordings are mono and that your speakers are deliberately tucked in the corners at opposite ends of the room; that you must be able to accurately detect when your fridge, hairdryer, and nextdoor neighbours' kettle is powered up; that it must be incapable of reaching 8 o'clock on the volume dial without giving you earache; that it must turn Celine Dion into Barry White; that it must be impossible to hear bass guitars (that'll be Naim speakers then ); that in general you can't make out what instruments are actually playing; your tweeters have been removed or disengaged; you plug it all into a cheap B&Q plastic mains block; make sure all your equipment is arranged tidily on the floor (watch that cable dressing!) or the family dressing table; and fashion your interconnects out of leftovers from an RS catalogue.

Interesting.

John.

Well spoken John!!!!! With the new Reference series I think Naim is trying to shake hand with the Flat Earth guild (Mark Levinson, Spectral, Bryston, Krell etc...). Don't be to hard on them, we (Naim sheeps) may have to follow their way soon. Actually modern HiFi (Naim, Mark levinson, Spectral, Bryston, etc.) have the same goal and I see that we' re all heading to the same destination. I am happy with my Naim but I will not be surprised if I find myself buying Spectral one day (I know I like Mark Levinson amps, especially their new 400 series mono blocks as much as I like those 135s from Naim).

----
_E-mail: john.toon@btinternet.com_

Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Tuan

quote:
Originally posted by Steve T:
Tuan,

I think you have your flat earth and round earth companies mixed up. Levinson and Krell in particular are the anthesis of Flat Earth companies

Steve T, I hope that I am wrong... There are lot of Naim guys think that ML, Krell, Spectral, etc. have no tunes, speed and rythm... I am not sure what group I am in but lately I see they all have the same quality that I like.

Posted on: 25 May 2003 by JeremyD

FEPs: 200
REPs: -65

However, here are my ever-so-slightly tongue in cheek definitions of flat, round and spherical Earth:

Round Earth: you think the most important thing about a hi-fi system is its imaging capability, "after all that's what distinguishes hi-fi from mere audio". This is an attitude generally adopted by those who have never heard a Spherical Earth system.

Flat Earth: you understand that most hi-fi systems have a poor sense of rhythm, and you rightly value those that have a good sense of rhythm. However, you take to its illogical extreme JV's assertion that he'd rather listen to Einstein on the phone than a doorman in person: namely you'd rather listen to Einstein on the phone than to Einstein in person! Further, not only do you not require your system to make instruments sound like real instruments or the stereo image sound like a real stereo image but your religious beliefs tell you that these are actually detrimental to your enjoyment of music.

Spherical Earth: You just want a system that makes recorded music do for you what live music does, and if that means upsetting a few flat Earthers and a lot of Round Earthers by falling into neither camp, then tough.

--J

Posted on: 25 May 2003 by Lightkeeper

This have nothing with audio, but did you know that old Sumaerans have believed that Earth is flat, that vision of Earth was called Mercator
projected.
Mercator Projected is also name of the album of my favorite band, East Of Eden, which members are fascinated by Sumaerans. The band is british 70' and they are very good.

Ozren

Posted on: 26 May 2003 by Lightkeeper

Nick !

There is no fly in the soup actually (I believe). Arbus was telling a joke on Croatian

, but I was never found out why, but he really good speaks Croatian.
The joke is talking about to be a gentleman and if you are a gentleman (on Croatian is "gospodin"), you don't have to take anything in the restauran while you are sitting. So, if you are poor, the waiter will kick you out, but this joke is about a poor man who are sitting in restaurant. To this poor man come waiter and ask him what he will order, the poor man says... gentleman, gentleman which means that he want to tell that he is a rich gentleman. For me it is more fascinated that Arbus says that on Cro, than the joke which is not so much funny.

Did you like East of Eden?

Ozren

Posted on: 26 May 2003 by trickytree

Paul D,

Best description of a Flat Earth System Yet!!

With my present setup im not ashamed to admit im trying to recreate the enjoyment that my Planar3/Nait2/ES14 gave me. The trouble is I want a little bit more of the same, and this is where things can start to get out of control.

Is there only so far that Flat Earth can go? Theres a limit to how hard or fast you can tap your feet.
In the same vein theres also a limit to how far instruments can be seperated, or 'how deep the blackness is

'

Could this be the reason that manufactures are stepping outside there traditional boundries? Naims that immage, Krells that have PRaT? Any one heard a conservative old fashiond Quad recently?

Posted on: 26 May 2003 by Thunderbird 2

quote:
Originally posted by JeremyD:

Spherical Earth: You just want a system that makes recorded music do for you what live music does, and if that means upsetting a few flat Earthers and a lot of Round Earthers by falling into neither camp, then tough.

--J

Congratulations Jeremy,
A great post sir, My feelings exactly, a awful lot of Flat earther's seem to assume that 'Musical reproduction' is their sole property, and anyone else who dares claim this (who doesn't own Naim/Linn/Rega/Densen),is living an eternal lie !!!
Think on this, why not have decent bodied/accurate/fast and coherant bass, with a soundstage and big involvment factor and glorious boogie factor and slam to spare?
Seems that would be a more advantageous senerio to myself?, Having been a Naim user for over 25 years (still using Nap 500's) I feel that there is a middle ground that is worth seeking out.
Over the past 3 or so months, since the First outing of the CDS3 at the Bristol show, I have at ever oppotinity sought demo's of the new Naim equipment namely, The CDS3/XPSII/552/282/300, while I understand the reasons, for Naim departure in their 'Chosen Field' and they desire to accquire a new section of the market,(I have with interest read a lot of posts on this forum, realating to 'Blackness/space/air/stage' some what odd for a Earthy bunch?)
I feel that it loses it 'Essence' to the older gear?, yes it's more advanced and has some 'Rounder Qualities' it (to me) has lost a lot of it's 'Soul', progess can be a wonderful thing, however in this instance , a more sideways step has been achieved.
I have to inform you gentlemen, that after a lot of lengthy listening and soul searching, that I have decided to sell My Nap 500's in the fulliness of time, due to (and in no small part) to my 'Infamous Brothers' somewhat 'intersting' demonstration tactic's, quite simply for less money,(And boxes), I can obtain a far more groovy/involving/powerful/less harsh/dynamic and cleaner sound, than what I have at this present moment, a straight comparsion was pretty convincing and Damning at the same time.
Moral of this post, there are manufactures out there, that are producing some wonderfully musical and entertaing equipment, that is superior in just about all area's, and at a more 'realistic pricing structure' as well, I do urge you to try and go for Jermery's Spherical earth, it is a intersting place to dwell.

Kind Regards David

Well Balanced Beings Promote Harmony In Music and Soul

Posted on: 26 May 2003 by Lightkeeper

Nick !

You are welcome.

Ozren.

Posted on: 26 May 2003 by david r

Thunderbird 2 - what is the system that so impresed you?

CDSII, 52, 135's and SF Electa Amator II's

Posted on: 26 May 2003 by Thunderbird 2

quote:
Originally posted by david r:
Thunderbird 2 - what is the system that so impresed you?

CDSII, 52, 135's and SF Electa Amator II's

Good Afternoon David,
A valid question sir, and one that requires a fair and complete answer.
I myself was the owner of this configuration CDS2/52/500 orginaly one then, another joined the frey. Speakers were B+W 801's (not every bodies choice, but good none the less).I was content with this fully Naimed system for over 12 months, (previously have owned Naim for over 25 years, and as my income grew, so did my sound system).
Just after Christmas 2001, my Brother introduced me to the Wadia 861, which completely bowled me over, I sold the CDS2/XPS/52 and purchased a used example for £5k, had some interconnects designed to use between the wadia and the Nap 500. (no pre-amplifier required, as the Wadia has a built in version) What an all encompassing sound it gave, however I felt it lacked so drive, so another Nap 500 was purchased and used in biamp formation (a speacial 'y' lead was used to achieve this), better dynamic's and 'aliveiness' and now I was happy. (or so I thought)At this point in the proceedings, my other brother had decided to change his ampilifier as well, Insenced by his insane ramblings on how good this Yank tank was, I agreed to a 'Hook up' with his lastest box of 'Max Power inspired sounds', it weighed about the same as the psu for ONE of the Nap 500's, and was nearly 1/2 a metre square in size, barh, It give him 5 minutes before he's crying, thinks I, oh Brother was I beaten into submission, this Black unassuming box, kicked the living spit out of My pride and Joys, not only was it running away with dynamic's, the PRaT was just so good, It was groovin like a Nait 2 on speed, the bass, was the tightest and most defined and controlled, I've ever had the pleasure of listening too, the impact of the snare drum snap's were something so real now, it was just like, the whole sound had been kicked up 2 notches, and then some.
To say I was surprised, was the understatement of the year, Fluke I thought, so we tried some Classical pieces, same results, deft electronic music, man this was the biggest surprise, it just took whatever I threw at, laughed at me then said, I'm bored, have you got anything that might trouble me?.
That was a pretty sombre day for myself, since then I have listened to a whole host of other equipment, to prove to myself, that this was just a one off. I'm afraid not, seems that by very careful auditioning, and selection of 'Quality components', this Spherical sound is really possible to produce, I have tried various speakers, JM labs Utopia's/Revell Studio 20's/ATC 7's the big fully active towers/Avalon Opus, all of which are fine speakers in their own right, but for myself don't fit the Spherical bill, Have finaly plumped for the Meadowlark Blue Heron 2's (My brother yet again, he has the smaller 2 way versions and by Crickey do they have some sound), and when they arrive, I'll be changing the Nap 500's (and making money too).
So, please don't be too hard on me, go check on the rest of the audio world, and you too, may find things do indeed move on.
Now I know, That a good few chaps will post after this with, "I've tried Spectral/Accuphase/JM Labs/Wadia/Dynavector/Etc and I found it naff and un groovy", may well be the case, but put it with a 'musical partner' and it sings and then it's life don't get much better than this.
Oh the Amplifier,My brother so kindly enjoyed rubbing my face in it with, was a Belcanto Evo 4 (shock horror a digital one, don't let it near Naim equipment, Maybe if it was a Switch Mode Power Supply, however these arn't), all you chaps with CDS3/552's can check this out for your selves, you have Phono outputs, just run them back to back, Oh the price £4200 for a bridgeable 4 channel power amplifier 360 watts Rms per channel .Please do use your ears, it's the best judge of sound, not the dealers.
Thanks for letting me ramble on, hope you all are enjoying your bank holiday.

Kind Regards David

Well Balanced Beings Promote Harmony In Music and Soul

Posted on: 26 May 2003 by Paul Ranson

quote:
a awful lot of Flat earther's seem to assume that 'Musical reproduction' is their sole property

You have it the wrong way around. 'Musical reproduction' implies 'Flat Earth'. Although I'm not convinced that Tony has got past the sound stage and into the music one.

Paul

Posted on: 26 May 2003 by Thunderbird 2

quote:
Originally posted by Paul Ranson:
quote:
a awful lot of Flat earther's seem to assume that 'Musical reproduction' is their sole property

You have it the wrong way around. 'Musical reproduction' implies 'Flat Earth'. Although I'm not convinced that Tony has got past the sound stage and into the music one.

Paul

Good evening Paul,
He did mention to me you were a 'theroy miester' as I am myself (which has the effect of annoying him greatly),I feel, I would have agreed with you at some point in the past, but on this occation. To put it into context, I have been privvy to all the 'Max Powering' that has gone on over the 12 months or so, and in all honesty Paul, It really is something quite wickedly good, the lastest incarnation, is quite a sound to behold, and remember, my own system is not too shabby, quite simply it grooves/times/rocks, and has one of the fastest, cleanest, tightest bass reproductions I've every had the pleasure to enjoy, the sheer involvment and scale of the sound is.... well you just need to listen, then all is revealed.
I think one of the comments you made about the sound on your last visit (he has enlightend me) was the sound was 'slow' compared to a Turn Table reproduction, and that possibly that his stage was some what 'lesser' than you had expected, I would suggest, you ask for another listen.
I also feel the overriding factor in this for myself, is the cost of his venture, the sound achieved and the ease of striking a balance, what is actualy possible given, the thought and careful selection process. quite some thing Paul.

Well Balanced Beings Promote Harmony In Music and Soul

Posted on: 27 May 2003 by Paul Ranson

You're still talking about 'fastest, cleanest, tightest'. Artifacts of an impression of sound rather than music.

It's not equipment that's 'Flat Earth' it's people. And there's nothing wrong with being giving priority to the sound, it's the strange attractor of home theatre and that seems pretty popular.

I wouldn't have described Tony's system as 'slow', I don't know what that means. It did sound mono though, which is stereotypically flat earth. I thought it was probably a room thing, strong reflections from floor and ceiling. Then add on the big bass bits...

Paul