Running a naxo/snaxo off the 52's Supercap--'Canney do it Captain'

Posted by: Richard Paget on 22 December 2002

Howdee

I'm afraid I must disagree with recent posts that you can do this successfully.
In case you are planning financing going active without a hicap for the naxo/snaxo as I was.

Running a naxo 2-4 (6yrs old-recently serviced) for SBL's off the 52's supercap spare socket sounds terrible in my system.much worse than with my spare snaps2.
The mid sounds better(intial wow) but the treble is spitty/sibilant (sign of clipped bandwidth) and bass compressed thus rhythm is destroyed.
What really swung it for me was then trying a 72 and a snaxo off the supercap(52 disconnected)--it was totally distorted and the treble collapsed to a clipped hiss.it sounded like something had blown up--This showed me that the naxo + a preamp is too much for a S/C(naim agree). i could hear the starting of this distortion when the naxo/52 were run off the s/c as recommended by some. The snaxo/naxo is a much higher load than the prefix.
Maybe the tolerance for this is slightly better on some units( my 52/sc is 5yrs old) which may explain the difference of opinion on this--I would be shocked if someone liked the distorted midi system treble on my setup in this config.

I know Ron Toolsie is a big advocate but I note he actually doesn't run in this config on his system list just has tried it out--he has a seperate s/c now for the naxo.
On talking to Naim they said they were absolutely amazed people thought it sounded better--apart from it brings forward the mid by clipping off the extremes.
The sound on my 72 powered by my supercap is similar mid forward but at least has 'normal treble and bass'-actually very very good--vocals more v.emotional.
WARNING-if you run phono boards or prefix driven from 52 socket --you can burn out the shared reg if you run a snaxo as well. Though my comments are made with no phono boards, and I run a prefix/hicap.

I really wanted it to work--my financing of my s/h 52/sc was based on me selling one of my hicaps--which I can't now.Shame.I actually run a 250(3yrs old) and a 160(recapped and sounds incredible) active I heard little difference cf 2x250's so run them to save some money for a forthcoming CDS1.
Other tip is that vertical 160/250 is still better than rewired horizontal config--I've tried both--the 'unbalanced' fear doesn't happen to my ears at least. Lots of people run an old silver 250 with a new olive one(sound very differnt tonally) without problems too.

Was also disappointed quite how much better the prefix was via a hicap versus 52 powered-no hicap sale there either.

Regards Richard
Posted on: 22 December 2002 by Ron Toolsie
In addition to taking receipt of the NAP300 yesterday, I spent 4 hours over at a friends place who uses the very 52s supercap-powered-Snaxo (in addition to CDX/XPS, 2x250, hot-rodded Linn Tukans). that I have listened to many, many times and for hours on end. It has rhythym, clarity, purity and seamless tunefullness. We eventually got the $3000 Linn subwoofer to mate extraordinarly well with it. Had there been any indiction of distortion, soggy bass or other gremlins that you noted this would have been painfully obvious. Indeed one of the dealers who was present yesterday decided there and then to move from his active Allaes to rewired hotrodded Tukans- the results were THAT good.

We did take along a brand new Supercap2 with a Snaxo Burndy to power up the Snaxo there, but I neglected to bring along a Snaic4 that links the 2 supercaps in this configuration, or an extra Snaic5 that would allow the Snaxo to be powered from the Supercap2s 'normal' powered output.

I have in the past tried powering his Snaxo with a dedicated Hicap and much preferred the 52s supercap. However as I noted in a previous post ('An evening of upgrade permutations...) when I accidentaly left a NAC112 powered by the 52s Supercap I was rewarded with a very distorted sound that made me think I had blown the tweeters. I can assure you that this application bears absolutely no resemblance to that obtained powering a Snaxo from the 52s supercap.

Note well that this application has the Snaxo 2-4. It may well be that the extra demands of a Snaxo3-6 may exhaust the capabliites of the 52s supercap. Also the Snaxo may be a more benign load than the Naxo,although I cannot imagine why.

In my current configuration my Snaxo3-6 is too far away from the 52s supercap for me experiment with it.Although I am very tempted to rearrange some boxes so I may try exactly that!

The moral is, it is one way of entering the active world without the initial mandatory expense of an extra *cap. The ultimate results will however always require a dedicated p/s for the Snaxo.

Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo

[This message was edited by Ron Toolsie on SUNDAY 22 December 2002 at 14:42.]
Posted on: 22 December 2002 by Jo Sharp
more likely to be an earth loop problem somewhere?

Jo
Posted on: 22 December 2002 by Richard Paget
Ron,
I guess what I was trying to say is it just sounds broken with mine. Naim concur in their experience
Perhaps there is some variability between the supercaps in this way. I guess my point is still valid--do not bank on it working.
My model is ex Naim show-->dealer's own-->me--he listens to 'um all the time and was happy with mine till the 252 came along.
I don't doubt your ears for a moment--yours must work--but this is so clear to me I don't doubt mine either.
One of your old posts has you describing a 'spitty treble' that you thought you could live with--mine must be that bit worse--but sounds like the beginning of overload in both of ours(compressed treble)but to differnt degrees
I agree the mid is silky--but a little too forward for me--older preamp style.

Earth loop--nope--5 pin snaic from the socket that powers the 82(the only 5 pin socket) to the only 5 pin socket on the naxo.I even unplugged all but the cd player making the music
Its a one lead connection cd--52-->s/c-->naxo-->amps no loop problems.--except the unavoidable one of loop supercap--->52-->supercap with this config.
Regards Ricardo

PS I would have loved it to have worked
Posted on: 22 December 2002 by Ron Toolsie
quote:
I guess what I was trying to say is it just sounds broken with mine. Naim concur in their experience
Perhaps there is some variability between the supercaps in this way. I guess my point is still valid--do not bank on it working.


Both the 52 and the Supercap have had a very long product runs, and sometimes small differences internally can have unexpected effects. For instance, it occured to me that IF I had a dedicated supercap to just supply the L/D front panel of the 52 (via the Snaic 5) the 52 would then be even better. But I could never get this to work... all the right lights came on yet the 52 remained in perpetual mute.

When trying to find an reason for this I came across other people (i.e. two) who had done exactly this with success. The difference it appeared was earlier vintage 52s would allow this (dont ask me why though) and was thought to offer an improvement by the few lucky individuals who would afford the then ludicrous $15,000 needed for the 52/2xSC. In my instance it was probably fortunate that this didn't work for me, as I would have very likely bought yet another Supercap and wasted 98% of its abilities through disuse.

So who was right about the ability to use the 52 with two Supercaps? We both were.

Even IF the 52s supercap worked pretty well all of the time powering the Snaxo, the ability to feed the Snaxo with multiple voltage rails is lost and the absolute performance compromised. Yes I have tried in my system powering the Snaxo with a Hicap, a dedicated supercap with Snaic 5 and a dedicated supercap with both the gray and black Burndy 17s. There is a nice improvement when the Burndies are inserted, and one that fully justifies the extra cost of a dedicated supercap.

As far as 'earth loops'... this can cause lessened performance due to a potential difference between nominal 0V reference points, which then translates into noise and lowering of the signal floor. But gross distorted clipping that I heard when hooking up the 112 to the 52s supercap?? No.. that surely was the sound of a regulator being overdriven or gross oscillation.

Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo