New visitors to this forum
Posted by: Paul Stephenson on 14 August 2001
"For me it would not be beginner level it would be my dream level and it is a touch sad to find my dream level being dismissed as nothing more than a starting off point "it's OK but......". I just wish these experts could have a little more understanding for potential customers who do not aspire to such dizzy and expensive heights".
This is just one of many emails I receive from new vistors to the forum, it would be a positive move if we we watch out for this and understand. It is not useful or friendly to answer our guests with a dissmissive reply.
I would appreciate your help with this. I do not mean not telling the truth or not giving honest advice, perhaps its just the way we tell it!
[This message was edited by Paul Stephenson on TUESDAY 14 August 2001 at 20:21.]
Posted on: 14 August 2001 by garyi
about the forum being for music lovers, but precious little seems to be mentioned about this subject which perhaps was what Paul was refering too.
Posted on: 14 August 2001 by Steveandkate
Not sure what my position is - it's 2 bottles of wine into the first day with my Xps on the end of my CDX, 82, hi-cap, 250, B+W 804's, but having spent around 85% of my annual income on my first Naim HiFi, it seems to be money well spent..
We can't all go for CDS2, 52, 500 etc, but if it seems worthwhile to you, the listener, then get it.
What does worry me is the lack of input ( and I'm as guilty as you..)to the "Music Room" - so few posts about what we listen to, and as music is why we are here, how come we spend so much time writing about our gear....?
It's not relevant here, but after 8 hours of XPS, the sound coming out of my speakers is worth every minute of the hours I spent working weekends, as are the 200 CD's bought over the last 10 months - my financial "wealth" is due to the fact that we are moving(sold up in London - Walthamstow, if that means anything..)to Spain where living, and property, is cheap, so enabling me to spend on what I feel is valuable - no pension, no savings, but a life for today...
Whatever you listen to, and whatever system you listen on, if it is good enough for you, then enjoy - my car is worth £1000, my CD collection £15,000, with another £10,000 worth of LP's !
So, I guess the end point is enjoy what you can afford - if clothing the kids is an issue, then do it, but if there is a little spare, then use the forum as a source of information, but a good dealer is worth every penny in helping spend the rest..!
Sorry if this is longwinded - time to go and feed the CD player another disc !
Steve
Posted on: 14 August 2001 by John C
This thread is the most appalling example of navel gazing I have ever seen. All you self satisfied 2nd hand "I built it up by scratch"are the ones accused in this thread! No high end owners seem to patronize new people in my experience, just the "dont bother with Nait get a second hand 12/160" merchants. There is an extraordinary amount of knowledge and wisdom on this forum and any newcomer would be advised to read threads of interest before asking questions. I know f.. all about Hi-Fi but have ended up with a "low end" Naim set up thanks to this forum.Now if only I could stop posting here, when I know nothing!
Mike Hanson consistently replies to newcomers queries with tact and good advice more than anyone else. Respeck is due. Vuk at least livens up proceedings. And his high end TT remark... I thought N Americans were the ones with no sense of irony! The forum would be dull and lifeless without these people.
Lighten up folks, this is the best and occasionally funniest forum on this ludicrous subject I have ever seen.
And if new visitors are complaining ... well be nicer but really this is not a naim advert (I think) but a forum and if people want reassurance on wasting money on unnecessary hi-fi equipment, see a shrink.
If its all about the music why are the stand threads more populated than the music ones?? MOW anyone?
John
ps I love all the people who recommend 2nd hand options
Posted on: 14 August 2001 by Steve Toy
Here we talk about the MEANS of delivering the music. In the music room we talk about the music itself. If I refer to a dem I have undertaken, I quite often refer to the music used.
It's always a nice day for it, have a good one 
Steve
Posted on: 14 August 2001 by Sproggle
I don't think it's asking too much to ask us to avoid the following sort of thing:
Question:
I've just bought a CD5/112/150 to go with my 5 year old Woofblaster speakers. I don't plan to upgrade my system much further but I think I need better speakers - what would you recommend? I'm prepared to spend £500 max.
Answer:
The Woofblasters are actually a lot better than you might think, and they're easy to drive - they just need a good enough source. I'd sell your CD5/112/150, and buy a secondhand CDX and a NAIT 5. The CD5 simply isn't good enough to make the Woofblasters sing. Once you've done that, you can think about upgrading to Allaes.
OK - it's not quite what any forum member would say but it illustrates the point, I hope.
--Jeremy
Posted on: 14 August 2001 by John C
But it's not often that point. Most people would say what a nice system get some R.. speakers.
More often unfortunately Oh no dont be so stupid get a Nac12/Nap160 , lp12 , beat's the hell out of the stuff you liked ..etc
John
corrected for Chris below and apologies
[This message was edited by John C on WEDNESDAY 15 August 2001 at 00:28.]
Posted on: 14 August 2001 by Chris Dolan
quote:
OK - it's not quite what any forum member would say ...
Jeremy
Of course it's not. Nait 5 pah, you want a Nait 2 .....and of course an lp12
John C
Sorry, but I don't really understand your last post?
Chris
Posted on: 15 August 2001 by Alex S.
Music pages - 10
Hi-Fi pages - 61
Any other interests whatsoever pages - 5
[This message was edited by Alex S on WEDNESDAY 15 August 2001 at 13:56.]
Posted on: 15 August 2001 by Martin Payne
quote:
I thought N Americans were the ones with no sense of irony
Ah, but Vuk is a European living in N America.
Martin
Posted on: 15 August 2001 by bob atherton
My personal view is that diminishing returns set in with Naim gear after the NAIT. IMHO a NAIT outperforms most other manufactures amps on musical grounds.
The difference between a NAIT & say, 72, Hicap , 250 is not such a giant musical leap. I do feel though that Naim equipment offers exceptional value for money at whatever level one owns or aspires to.
Bob.
Posted on: 15 August 2001 by John Boon
Just as there are diferent forums for "Music" and "HiFi" etc., why not split the "HiFi" forum into two or more forums e.g. "Hi-end", "mid-range" and perhaps one especially for passionate debates about stands, perhaps called "last man standing" ?
Cheers
John
Posted on: 15 August 2001 by Steve Toy
Too much fragmentation - would stifle the (occasional) liveliness of the forum! Also, how would you police it, and would you try to force people to stay on-topic within their given topic area?
And then there is the question of elitism, drawing the line etc.
It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve
Posted on: 15 August 2001 by Chris Metcalfe
Tony said: "For what its worth the amount of people able to lash out a fifth of my gross salary on a CD player shocks me too!"
A lot of people have made a lot of BIG upgrades in the past 3 years - mainly because of the boom in the UK economy and historically low interest rates. If this all goes pear-shaped in the next 3 years, rates go back up to 10 per cent and the recession wipes out manufacturing industry in this country, we'll all be looking back nostalgically to the time when we had our first 42/110 and a little money in the bank.
Apart from Mick, who'll probably be ok!
Posted on: 16 August 2001 by Mick P
Chris
The general concensous is that if anything, UK interest rates will remain low and may even get lower. This will need to be the case in order for the Pound to align itself with the Euro. Politics aside, we all know that we are going in. Its just a question of when. Expect to join in 2006.
It is generally expected for manufacturing industry to shed jobs but our service industies are in good fundemental order and their customer base is also fairly safe. Overall unemployment will rise but not by a significant amount.
I expect company's such as Naim will be able to easily weather the storm because there will still be lots of disposable income sloshing around.
This incidentally, is also the view shared not only by HMG but also the Bank of England.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 16 August 2001 by Paul Stephenson
We have generally done pretty well in these times rather than boom!
People are more careful regarding purchase, fit for purpose type questions, does it sound good? etc.
In boom times more fashion and spur of the moment purchases are made.
Posted on: 16 August 2001 by Mike Hanson
Let's call a spade a spade. We have a guy who has spent his life savings for some entry-level Naim gear, and now he's come to the forum looking for praise. He encounters a bunch of guys revelling in superior gear, and his feelings are hurt. He just wants a bunch of politically correct, touchy-feely, right-on-bro' responses. Well he's not going to get it from me: I'll offer a cursory "Congratulations", but that's it!
If, however, he's explaining that he's got some gear, and he wants to know the best strategy to improve it, then I'll gladly lend a hand, and I'll do it politely too. I was in that same boat myself over the past few years, and I really appreciated all of the advice. People saying that a 3.5/Flat would leave me disappointed didn't offend me. Although I initially resisted accepting their remarks, I eventually discovered that they were right.
Besides, Naim gear is expensive. That's the long and the short of it. You can get some great systems by purchasing used gear, but that's the only easy way into this club.
BTW, I may pooh-pooh someone's system, but I always have respect for their love of music. Naim helps us to strive for the best possible playback system. Whether you've got a CD3/Nait2 or a CDS2/52/250, you're in it for the music and that's a laudable goal.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Posted on: 16 August 2001 by Chris Metcalfe
I think Paul was right though in the first instance; there've been too many posts along the lines of 'Now I've bought a 52/82/CDS2/NBLs I think a 32/140/Credos etc are useless'. Not in so many words maybe, but that's generally the tone. I think that's because, re my previous post, the UK economic boom has given people that kind of bullish attitude. Personally I think a bit of correction is in order.
I also KNOW that my first 42/110 wiped out all the other amps I'd had before, and I'm sure is still fundamentally better than most of them.
Posted on: 17 August 2001 by Alex S.
quote:
We have generally done pretty well in these times rather than boom!
People are more careful regarding purchase, fit for purpose type questions, does it sound good? etc.
In boom times more fashion and spur of the moment purchases are made.
Sometimes you display a certain smugness which I find inappropriate on a forum of this stature and integrity. I should not wish for any new visitors to be given the wrong impression.
Posted on: 17 August 2001 by Paul Stephenson
Perhaps you suffer from a general misunderstanding of my posts or are trying to read too much into them.
It was a simple message, when money is tight people take more care with the choices they make, smug? no, reality!
Posted on: 17 August 2001 by Alex S.
quote:
Perhaps you suffer from a general misunderstanding of my posts or are trying to read too much into them.
And I thought that was you of me, not me of you.
Posted on: 17 August 2001 by Paul Stephenson
Well touche! ave a good one.
Posted on: 17 August 2001 by Arye_Gur
Some of them are "having a word" here, but new visitors - don't be affraid of tough Mike or of frightening Vuk. I can tell you you can easily learn a lot from these two too.
You can say anything you wish even if it is something against Naim - just be ready for some angry answers (from members, not from Naim...).
All of this is out of my very own experience.
This forum is welcoming any visitor including these from Mana (okay, just kidding...).
Mike says
quote:
I was in that same boat myself over the past few years
I can sea (see) that you are using "boats" for different explanations...
Arye
Posted on: 17 August 2001 by NigelP
I think that Paul's posting is relevant and we need collectively to understand what he is trying to say. I have worked my way up in professional and, hence, home life. That's what happens as you get older. When I was a boy, I used to go to a hifi shop almost every day of my life and sit and listen to the music in their demo room. The shop team used to look after me as I went through my O-levels, A-levels and beyond and never treated me other than a person who had a love for music recreated as accurately as possible. I had no money, a hifi system that I worked on building site to buy and lots of friends who had already gone out into the wide world. I said to the owner of the shop "one day - I'll come in here and buy your best system". This was my dream and a few short months ago I made on my promise. I spent a few months prior to that looking at the web site thinking "what does that 52 sound like?" and "is the CDS-II that good?". The fantasy was still alive. Now I have that top flight system and I am proud of it. A snob I am not though. I worked my way up and I'm almost there. I want to go further and I will. BTW I'm not a merchant banker! So where am I going with this?
- this site is for music enthusiasts who want to solicit views and share experiences
- A two tier (high-end and low-end) creates a multi-level society. Most of us have owned the lower end equipment and can make good comments about it
- Some comments have been unwelcome to say the least. I have a pair of Nautilus 804's and love them. Another member asked what he should do with his system to which a comment came "dump the 804's!". Come on let's be constructive.
- I asked for advice on 500/804 versus active 250/NBL to get a comment around the parading of a wallet. A genuine question for someone that wants to move up again. If you don't have any advice to offer - then don't offer it.
- Those who read comments about those with high-end systems should either read and dream or not read them at all
I spend a great deal of time coaching people on how to send e-mail. It is one of the worst mediums for communication. Why? It's because it's so easy to do but difficult to write a message that gets across what you mean in the write way. When I get a bad e-mail, I go away for an hour, think about it and then come back and craft something that gets the message across in the right way. Let's have some tolerance for the fact that people may write something as a knee-jerk reaction and let's also be mindful that we could construct our replies a little more appropriately. We all share one common trait - our love for music. Lastly, let's have fun!
Posted on: 17 August 2001 by Andrew L. Weekes
Mike,
quote:
I may pooh-pooh someone's system, but I always have respect for their love of music.
But obviously no respect whatsoever for their own judgement, Naim's entry level kit, consideration of their means etc. etc.
One of the golden rules in sales (and if you are offering advice to others it's a form of selling) is never, ever rubbish the competition.
It's a technique that is universally understood to lead to failure in most cases. If I walk in to a shop and they rubbish my existing equipment, whilst offering me their ideas on what is best I'l leave with a polite 'thank you' never to return.
The salesman could be rubbishing kit I love and have saved hard to purchase. Far better to offer the benefits of the alternatives, highlighting these for the customer to see and make up his own mind.
Vuk,
quote:
With that kind of commitment, I have every right to take the piss out of any mullet system newbie running a CD3.5 into speakers of the same price.
I assume the above to be your usual, easily misunderstood irony and humour?
You disappoint if not.
I wonder what purpose we expect this forum to fulfill?
I personally enjoy it on several levels, the contact directly with the manufacturer was what drew me in originally (although I miss the technical input that was there when I joined), it's a great place to share and swap ideas and I've gained a truly enormous amount of information through it.
I've met some great people, an even those who I've disagreed with vehemently I have respect for.
It shocks me how much more I'm aware of the intricacies of Naim's products and new releases than my dealer, solely through this forum. A few more dealers should look in here IMHO.
Let's not turn it into a materialistic bragging shop.
Andy.
[This message was edited by Andrew L. Weekes on FRIDAY 17 August 2001 at 10:25.]
Posted on: 17 August 2001 by Andrew L. Weekes
Most of us have a well-developed sense of humour
quote:
I spend a great deal of time coaching people on how to send e-mail. It is one of the worst mediums for communication. Why? It's because it's so easy to do but difficult to write a message that gets across what you mean in the write way.
Very true - does the coaching include spelling
Andy (diving for cover)
