New visitors to this forum
Posted by: Paul Stephenson on 14 August 2001
This is just one of many emails I receive from new vistors to the forum, it would be a positive move if we we watch out for this and understand. It is not useful or friendly to answer our guests with a dissmissive reply.
I would appreciate your help with this. I do not mean not telling the truth or not giving honest advice, perhaps its just the way we tell it!
[This message was edited by Paul Stephenson on TUESDAY 14 August 2001 at 20:21.]
Thanks for picking me up that one. I guess we could all use a little coaching 
Nigel
Just read your messages on the last page, wondering if you were referring to me - it was another Andrew.
I got to say it's a nice story and very inspirational. Thanks for sharing.
I still don't like B&Ws though 
Andrew
Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;
"I remember the positive thinking that went into that."
Would somebody please tell me exactly why my opinion on any particular audio-related subject should be perceived as being less informed, or of less value, than someone who spent more on their interconnect than I have on my whole hi-fi? I don't necessarily want to spend tens of thousands of pounds on audio equipment, by Naim, or anyone else. I'm quite happy with what I have at the moment, thanks. However, I do feel that there is a certain cliqueishness (if such a word exists!) between certain "mile high" contributors to this forum, which I find offputting and which, Mr Randle, no amount of sarcasm or preaching can persuade me otherwise.
quote:
no respect whatsoever for their own judgement, Naim's entry level kit, consideration of their means etc. etc.
I could not be happy with a CD3/Nait3 system. It's too aggressive for my tastes, and I would probably prefer a Exposure or Creek system at a similar price point. The CD5/Nait5/Flat2 is a nice system, though.
If a person can afford only a bottom-rung system, then so be it. I'll be polite, yet I won't tell him that it's the cat's meow. If he asks, I'll try to offer upgrade advice in a pleasant and helpful manner, suggesting things within his budget. I'll also illustrate a future upgrade path, if he ever has more disposable income.
What's so disrepectful about that?
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
P.S. A friend of mine recently bought a Toshiba CD player, Sony 3xx receiver, and Cerwin Vega speakers. It was probably one of the most awful systems I've ever heard, and I didn't cringe once to hurt her feelings. Aren't you proud of me? 
quote:
If a person can afford only a bottom-rung system, then so be it. I'll be polite, yet I won't tell him that it's the cat's meow.
That's the bit that worries me, you seem to be viewing things from your own perspective, not that of the person seeking advice. Any advice offered has to be relevant to him, not to your vision of what he should do if he lived in your house, had your job, wore your clothes etc.
To this person a bottom-rung system may well be the cats meow. Relative to the Cerwin-Vega's etc. it most definitely is
I assume you had entry level equipment once - just remember how much you enjoyed it, before you discovered better things.
quote:
If he asks, I'll try to offer upgrade advice in a pleasant and helpful manner, suggesting things within his budget. I'll also illustrate a future upgrade path, if he ever has more disposable income.What's so disrepectful about that?
Nothing at all, providing the advice is for him not you. You said originally you pooh-pooh his system - wrong choice of words perhaps?
quote:
P.S. A friend of mine recently bought a Toshiba CD player, Sony 3xx receiver, and Cerwin Vega speakers. It was probably one of the most awful systems I've ever heard, and I didn't cringe once to hurt her feelings. Aren't you proud of me?
I am actually, I trust you've invited them round to let them hear how it should be done, uder the pretence of something else
I run entry level Naim kit and IMHO it IS the dogs danglies relative to everything else I heard at it's price point. It's all I could afford at the time, but I've never regretted spending the not inconsidreable sum it cost. I use it every single day of the week spending significant proportions of a day listening to music, when other commitments allow.
I wouldn't care what you said about it, since I'm confident in my own judgement, others may not take derisory comments so well.
CD5/Nait5/DBLs!!!!! 
ok the dbls are the weak link.
Chris
quote:
you seem to be viewing things from your own perspective, not that of the person seeking advice. Any advice offered has to be relevant to him, not to your vision of what he should do if he lived in your house, had your job, wore your clothes etc.
That's where you're wrong. First of all, if he's happy with his system, then he's lucky. If he wants me to congratulate him on his purchase, then I will probably do so. If he wants my advice on how to improve it, then I'll give him some based upon my own experience and acquired knowledge. If he wants to know what I think he should do to increase his income so he can by more gear, I might provide some wisdom on that too.
The point here is that I do what I can, and I'm generally nice about it. You can't expect me to to rave about my own upper-level Naim system, and in the next breath get all excited and mushy, just because someone has proudly entered the world of Naim and wants some back-patting. If I like his system, I'll let him know. BTW, I really like CDX/102/NAPSC/Hi/140. I also like 3.5/Flat/32.5/SNAPS/110. See... I'm not a snob. However, I don't like CD3/92/90. Ok, I'm a bit of a snob.
quote:
To this person a bottom-rung system may well be the cats meow. Relative to the Cerwin-Vega's etc. it most definitely is.I assume you had entry level equipment once - just remember how much you enjoyed it, before you discovered better things.
Yes I had crappy equipment, and I knew it was so. I still enjoyed the music, but I never deluded myself into thinking it "sounded great". In fact, I've never thought that until I hit CDX/102/NAPSC/140. (Do I hear an echo in here?)
quote:
I trust you've invited [the Cerwin Vega purchasers] round to let them hear how it should be done, under the pretence of something else
She has had the opportunity to hear my system in various states and rooms, both before and after her purchase. She's usually appreciated any music that I happened to be playing when she visited, although she's never remarked on my system's performance, per se, and I've never asked for her opinion.
In fact, the only time she's mentioned the concept of performance was in explaining her own foray into the world of stereo auditioning: She commented that the first speakers she heard didn't satisfy her, but then she heard the Cerwin Vegas and liked the extra bass. (Ouch!)
quote:
I run entry level Naim kit and IMHO it IS the dogs danglies relative to everything else I heard at it's price point.
Congratulations! Good show! Pip-pip! Tally Hoe. I'm so excited for you. Now I'm all gushy! Gawrsh! How do you do it? I'm sure you'll be very, very, very happy with that super-duper, extra-special, happy-happy-joy-joy, pat-on-the-back, entry-level Naim system. I can't believe you can contain yourself. You must be so happy!!!!
quote:
I wouldn't care what you said about it
Oops, I just read that part. You can ignore my gushing above. 
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
quote:
entry level systems ... represent the ethos of many members of this forum
I have a hard time with that statement. If all you can afford is entry level, then so be it. If you never aspire to anything better, then I feel sorry for you.
The primary focus of this forum is on encouraging, planning and executing upgrades (and sharing interesting ideas along the way). To suggest anything different is self delusion.
quote:
Your attitude currently smacks of self appointed superiority, which I am sure was not the intended effect, but nevertheless that is how it reads.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. However, I do feel superior to the rest of the world, and I'm constantly battling to conceal that fact.
Although there is some truth in the above statement (it comes from being extremely self-assured), the main problem I have with this entire thread is that it smacks of Political Correctness, which I despise! Don't hide from the truth! Give me a world where everyone recognizes the absolutes of their situation.
Talking about an ethos: mine is always to be happy with what I have, yet always to strive for something more. It means that I'm never unduly dissatisfied, and I never feel stagnant, which is a very good way to live one's life.
This is why entry level will never be "enough" for me!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
quote:
Yes I had crappy equipment, and I knew it was so.
Your early Hi-Fi was all crap, I'm surprised that you didn't give it all up years ago. I have to admire your persistence though.
I also have to wonder about your definition of crap though, since...
quote:
I still enjoyed the music, but I never deluded myself into thinking it "sounded great".
Sorry but I'm really confused now, I thought the whole raison d'etre of a Hi-Fi was to allow the enjoyment of music.
Are you defecting to the round side
Get a sense of perspective, please!
Andy.
quote:
Will you please delete this thread before someone finds a way to tap into the local power grids (probably Andrew Weekes - can't imagine how much resin he'd have to drill through, but I'm sure he can manage) and starts sending huge spikes through rival members' systems?
I think ECT is not considered such a good therapy these days, despite the obvious temptations
quote:
you're beginning to read like an over-opinionated, smug git. Why don't you give it a rest?
I'm sorry if I've been ranting, but I think humility is a drastically overrated trait, and it usually makes me cringe when I recognize it. I prefer that people be honest with themselves and the rest of the world.
Patrick Dixon also said:
quote:
However, surely the whole point of this thread is to ask us to think more carefuly about the effect of our advice and comment on those newer visitors to the forum, may of whom are new to Naim as well and have just spent a fair amount of cash on a '5 series' or similar product. New visitors don't have the benefit of 'knowing' us and our little idiosyncrasies, and so can't read the advice with the required 'pinch of salt' where applicable.
I would like to clear something up. I've rarely (if ever) observed someone immediately slamming the system described in a newbie's query. We tend to be rather polite (most of the time). More often, it's the general tenor of "this is better than that". Politeness goes only so far, and eventually we have to state the reality that the entry level gear is not as good as the more expensive offerings.
I can certainly imagine someone excited about his recent purchase, who comes to the forum and gets discouraged, because his gear doesn't measure up. However, to suggest that politeness will prevent that from occurring is absurd. If someone says "It's good gear at that price point", it can easily sound condescending, even when presented in the kindest of terms. This is especially true when the statement is surrounded by comments about the fantastic CDS2, etc.
Andrew L. Weekes said:
quote:
Your early Hi-Fi was all crap, I'm surprised that you didn't give it all up years ago. .... I thought the whole raison d'etre of a Hi-Fi was to allow the enjoyment of music.
This brings up an interesting observation that I've made. When I was 16, my system was worth about $200 (Technics turntable, Radioshack integrated, and headphones). It certainly wasn't high-fidelity, and I knew it. However, I would merely fill-in-the-blanks, as it were. This is what everyone does, to some extent. With substandard systems, we try to imagine the music sounding better, so that we can get maximum enjoyment from it.
When I started searching for a "good" stereo a few years back, it was this imaginary ideal towards which I strove. I finally achieved that goal with CDX/82/2*Hi/250/Albion. At that stage, it usually sounded "good enough" to match my internal expectations.
However, I wasn't at the top of the Naim ladder, and I was curious to continue. In my upgrades since then, I've not had a foundation of expectations on which to base my observations. With all of my upgrades, my system has sounded better than I can imagine it (when I'm not actually sitting in front of it). I'll freely admit that I haven't yet acclimatized my expectations to my system's abilities. This enables me to think that other systems actually sound better than they are, until I am able to "reference" myself back with my own system.
For example, I went speaker shopping yesterday. I was listening to a Mark Levinson CD player into a Jeff Rowland integrated. The speakers where the Wilson Benesch Discovery and the Verity Audio Fidelio. I thought that both of these sounded very good, although I preferred the sound of the Fidelio. The Discovery had more dynamic SNAP, but it had problems with bass extension and a lack of "body". The Fidelio was much more open and clear, with a real sense of getting you inside the music. At the end of my audition, I felt that it was sounding very good. I figured it wasn't quite up to the level of my own, but I suspected that it was "close".
I couldn't have been more wrong! When I heard my system, it so totally and thoroughly slashed the stuff I had heard earlier in the day, that I sat slack-jawed in amazement. I just couldn't imagine it sounding this good. This is a nice sensation, as I can currently sit in front of my system and be consistently impressed. I'll rue the day that my system sounds merely "good enough". I don't know what I'll do when that happens. (Maybe I'll do one of those silly Japanese on Mana escapades. )
BTW, I also heard some upper-range Krell gear driving the Sonus Faber Amati Homage. The speaker looked beautiful, and the Krell looked really high-tech. However, I knew that it was boring, plain and simple. That was easy to recognize, and it annoyed the shop owner when I shared my views. (He gave me some bullsh*t story about Krell being superior with live recordings. Music is music, I say.)
Mike Parry said:
quote:
Carry on Mike and sock it to them.
I think I'm done my rant for now. I'll go back to being my humble self.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
How can pointing out someone else's insularity be perceived as preaching alienation? Your logic defies me.
[This message was edited by wal riley on SATURDAY 18 August 2001 at 21:46.]