New visitors to this forum
Posted by: Paul Stephenson on 14 August 2001
This is just one of many emails I receive from new vistors to the forum, it would be a positive move if we we watch out for this and understand. It is not useful or friendly to answer our guests with a dissmissive reply.
I would appreciate your help with this. I do not mean not telling the truth or not giving honest advice, perhaps its just the way we tell it!
[This message was edited by Paul Stephenson on TUESDAY 14 August 2001 at 20:21.]
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watch a Krell flag-bearer bash me over the head with their Master Reference Amplifiers
This shop had a set of Krell mono amplifiers that were the size of four subwoofers put together, and were rated at 1000 watts each. I laughed my head off. I would love to look inside to see how much empty space I could find 
Krell is obviously for those who care how it looks far more than how it sounds.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Firstly, I don't believe that i'm being confrontational. If someone does not like a comment in a posting of mine, this does not automatically imply that i'm being aggressive. I haven't been abusive to any group/individual on this forum, and have no intention of starting. (I believe rec.audio is great for slanging matches, though!) The charge of elitism is only my personal point of view, and i merely exercised the power of free speech to make my point on this forum some time ago - a point that was echoed by Paul Stephenson at the start of this thread. Now, I'm in no position to change people's behaviour. That is their prerogative, after all we are all adults. My point is that when an administrator on the forum comments that other people are also complaining about roughly similar things, then maybe its time to consider what's being said, and by who. After all, these are all potential contributors to the forum, and it's diversity that keeps things interesting,isn't it?
There are clearly too many Orotons in supply here - and instead of a Duel, we have something to rival an All Blacks v Wallabies scrum - and the 80's revival Glomesh is dazzling all spectators.
Nothing like a good spot of thread mutation, but this is ridiculous! I only tuned in at page three, and after reading through the rest, I only wish there was a way to grind this one up - it might help my garden if sprinkled upon it.
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you seem to be viewing things from your own perspective, not that of the person seeking advice. Any advice offered has to be relevant to him, not to your vision of what he should do if he lived in your house, had your job, wore your clothes etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------That's where you're wrong. First of all, if he's happy with his system, then he's lucky. If he wants me to congratulate him on his purchase, then I will probably do so. If he wants my advice on how to improve it, then I'll give him some based upon my own experience and acquired knowledge. If he wants to know what I think he should do to increase his income so he can by more gear, I might provide some wisdom on that too.
Ahhh you must be the Mike Hanson with the newly purchased Mondeo... "hey man, dig my new wheels? Oh BTW, what can I do about the handling and off-line performance?"
"Shoot Mike - you shouldda bought the Cougar! Never mind that you need great gas milage, four doors, low emissions and a low profile... those Mondeos are really only good for plebs and sales reps."
One does need to determine the suitability of the advice for the prospective punter. Know your audience!
Mike, had it occured to you that while your head was stuck somewhere dark looking down upon all those who're not aspiring to something made of unobtanium, that in fact those fortunate to be satisfied would most likely shake their heads sagely and have a quiet belly laugh contemplating your continual cyclic desire for more kit in the manner of donkey and carrot?
I'm sure you've got a great sounding system there now, and inded I would be pleased to own it myself. We rarely agree on things (esp where SBL's are mentioned) - but I must note that rarely have I seen such arrogance displayed on this forum! I just cannot get my head around your justification for what is effectively a rude dismissal of anyone looking for advice with a low-cost system, on the basis your perceived position in the food chain, where you view their position in what amounts to your percieved pecking order, and your evaluation of their motivation!
Still, tomorrow I will be a-polishing my shoes, and will transform myself into a real go-getter - perhaps windscreen washing will see a 52 under my xmas tree eh? I hope that elevates me to "worthy of good advice" level from mere shoes-on-desk lazy happy bum with 82 status. 
Stunned of North London.
PS - I know that's a wordy one, but we are clearly lacking a post from P along the lines of "Arse".
Rico - ok, the Kans are sorted, now whatabout the rainforests?
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One does need to determine the suitability of the advice for the prospective punter. Know your audience!Mike, had it occured to you that while your head was stuck somewhere dark looking down upon all those who're not aspiring to something made of unobtanium, that in fact those fortunate to be satisfied would most likely shake their heads sagely and have a quiet belly laugh contemplating your continual cyclic desire for more kit in the manner of donkey and carrot?
I'm sure you've got a great sounding system there now, and inded I would be pleased to own it myself. We rarely agree on things (esp where SBL's are mentioned) - but I must note that rarely have I seen such arrogance displayed on this forum! I just cannot get my head around your justification for what is effectively a rude dismissal of anyone looking for advice with a low-cost system, on the basis your perceived position in the food chain, where you view their position in what amounts to your percieved pecking order, and your evaluation of their motivation!
Let me begin by stating that I despise political correctness, and the intent of this thread seemed to seeth with it. I also get annoyed by false humility (versus honest pride), and I enjoy ranting about the topic. Normally I am somewhat more reserved (although electronic forums do tend to exaggerate one's persona).
As to giving advice, I've always suggested items applicable to a person's situation. For example, if they are in Nait-land, then I suggest they upgrade to a 32.5/110. I might also offer a peek further down the road, which I suppose some might find intimidating. I don't tell the to ditch their gear, get a job, and buy a 52/Super/500.
I've stated elsewhere that my own upgrades are basically done now. For quite some time I've intended to reach my current level, and now that I'm here, I'm happy with it.
Is that clearer now?
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
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what do you do when you have the most expensive system naim supply?
I'm assuming you're talking CDS2/NAT01/52/Super/Super/SNAXO/3*NAP500/DBL. That would be quite a system. If that's where you are, then you have lots of money to spare, and you probably have some more rooms. You should start on your 2nd, 3rd, or 4th systems. How about one for the cottage, and one for the yacht? Then there's the upcoming Naim AV2. That means lots more equipment (and cool video displays too).
Since Naim is the best, you don't need to buy better. You just need more! 
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
I am certain you have completely misinterpreted the intent of my post.
You are not being criticised for your advice - it's your justification of how you apply it that is so galling.
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Let me begin by stating that I despise political correctness, and the intent of this thread seemed to seeth with it. I also get annoyed by false humility (versus honest pride), and I enjoy ranting about the topic. Normally I am somewhat more reserved (although electronic forums do tend to exaggerate one's persona)..
I reckon most would agree that Paul's not really a PC guy - he just does his best. Perhaps you misinterpreted the original post to get to this point?
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As to giving advice, I've always suggested items applicable to a person's situation. For example, if they are in Nait-land, then I suggest they upgrade to a 32.5/110. I might also offer a peek further down the road, which I suppose some might find intimidating. I don't tell the to ditch their gear, get a job, and buy a 52/Super/500.
Would that be along the lines of this:
quote:Which would be roughly (precisely) paraphrased as "buy a CDSII/52/... oh and some 135's for good measure (great choice by the way, I'm sure you'll like them)... and if you're not motivated enough I'll tell you how to earn it too". Or sorry, have I misinterpreted you again as you were in a hurry?
If he wants my advice on how to improve it, then I'll give him some based upon my own experience and acquired knowledge. If he wants to know what I think he should do to increase his income so he can by more gear, I might provide some wisdom on that too.
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I've stated elsewhere that my own upgrades are basically done now. For quite some time I've intended to reach my current level, and now that I'm here, I'm happy with it.
We'll frame that one.
Again Mike, I don't take issue with your advice - I'd even go so far as to say more recently some of it's been spot on (IMHO) - and that's not an issue of "oh I didn't like that, it's rubbish"; I've genuinely agreed with a differing viewpoint - but your labouring the "why should I feel bad" bears no relation to humilty. Additionally, humility was never requested nor suggested in the first place.
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Is that clearer now?
err - no. You've dug a good hole though - pretty soon all our new forum visitors will fall in and join you!
Rico - ok, the Kans are sorted, now whatabout the rainforests?
[This message was edited by Rico on THURSDAY 30 August 2001 at 20:22.]
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Would that be along the lines of this: "If he wants to know what I think he should do to increase his income so he can by more gear, I might provide some wisdom on that too."
That comment was made mid-rant and I probably should have followed it with a smilie, because even while I wrote it my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek. I decided not to at the time, because I was having fun making inflammatory comments. Besides, if someone wants to be poor, that's their business. [Note smilie.]
I'm more likely to say: "Your system is pretty good now, but there are some things that you can do to improve it. (List ideas about setup and various box upgrades.) I suggest that you work hard and upgrade as often as you can afford, because the view from the mountain is great!
Is that pleasant enough for your sensitive soul? [Note smilie.]
I'll admit that I'm pretty pleased with my recent, rapid spurt to reach the pinnacle of Mount Naim (at least my version of it). This may have made me a little cocky, and as I've already said: the web exaggerates our personas. I'm already settling down now.
I'm also hyper-sensitive to false niceties, and particularly the promotion of these attitudes (whether they be political correctness, mock humility, or whatever). In light of this, this thread was an excuse to go on a personal tirade. (It's fun the make noise sometimes. ) I suppose Paul's original post may not have been strongly encouraging a more PC stance for forum members, but it was close enough to get me going.
Let me sum all of this up: I was having fun making noise, and I'm not nearly as mean and nasty as I sometimes seem. When people ask me for advice, I offer remarks that make sense within their context, and I try to do it politely. That's the real me.
Are you satisfied now? 
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
I've had lots of people hear my system. Some are bowled over, but most are obviously thinking "yeah whatever". Usually this is because it's not important to them, which brings us to the crux of the issue: If we care about the various sonic attributes, and we can list, define and recognize them, then we're more likely to notice differences and improvements. (That's a little circular, isn't it?) Without that frame of reference, it's much more difficult to gauge the performance accurately.
How about this: Approach someone who knows very little about wine. Give them a taste of a good wine, then a great wine, then a stupendous wine. Ask them to rate them.
Some might criticize all the wines as been too fancy or intense (just as some people like my wife prefer crappy stereos). Others would probably rank them, and they might even take at stab at explaining their preferances.
How many of those people are likely to rank them in "proper" order, according to established guidelines? How many will notice all of the attributes that are used by experts to gauge good wine? How many of them care?
Stereos are no different. Until you get accustomed to the stereo culture, you're not likely to understand, recognize and appreciate all of the various nuances that seem so important to us.
However, there are some components that are so exceptional, that even non-audiophiles will notice. My best friend's wife had often heard my system, and she never seemed too impressed (even with her husband Ooh'ing and Aah'ing all over the place). When I upgraded from CDX to CDS2, though, she commented that it was the first time she really thought my stereo sounded good. Maybe I should have gotten a CDS2/Nait3 off from the start.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
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Besides, it's not just emotion. There's also a musical message that's being communicated
Sorry Mike, they're the same to me. Music is all about emotion, unless one's going to analyse technique and skill in the manner of an academic.
The skill and technique should be a transparent medium to communicate the musical message, which is emotional.
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although it's accurate, has no precision
Accuracy and precision are the same in my dictionary too
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It's also highly impacted by your current state of mind.
I'd agree there, the best Hi-Fi upgrade I've ever done involved doing what Bill Clinton didn't (and I don't mean Monica).
Not a long term proposition though
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How can you tell when one system is "better" than the other, without developing a frame of reference?
You don't need to unless you're a compulsive upgradeist .
If you enjoy what you're listening to that's it. If you're comparing and you enjoy A more than B then that's it too! It's very simple.
Andy.