Sonos ZP90 v Mac Mini into NDAC

quote:

Originally posted by ianmacd:
Yes, you can use stock OSX software for hi res.

One small detail though, it (OSX/iTunes) sounds shit in comparison with files run through Amarra. Amarra extracts details and nuances that make it worth every penny of it's thousand quid.

It's a bit like when pro photographers say "don't waste your money on Phase One's Capture One Pro version, just use Camera Raw which bundles free with Photoshop....

Ian

Stock iTunes sounds shit? Let's not be dramatic about this. Considering that unequivocally both iTunes and Amarra sans EQ put out the exact same stream since both are bit perfect.

Sonic Studio never came right out and explained why Amarra would sound better, other than to say “it is in the math”. As far as I am concerned, Amarra is the world’s most expensive sample rate switcher for Mac OS unless one is using it for EQ. In which case it is still a very expensive software based EQ.

Kudos to Daniel Weiss and Kent Poon who sell Amarra. They have been very careful not to claim sonic improvement of Amarra over stock iTunes, and subtly tell the users just to listen for themselves, soft way of saying “if it floats your boat, go right ahead…”

As in the Matrix, we believe what we want to believe. If ever there is placebo effect in hifi this should be a case study.

I had a go with the trial version and had someone switched back and forth for me, and was lucky someone did not have a gun against my head.....

OS X Core Audio has its issues, and the kernel mixer makes things sound subjectively soft and unmusical. Even the most jaded of audio professionals can hear the difference (which is, in part, part of the reason that specialty recording hardware exists).

Inasmuch as iTunes is, by default, bound to Core Audio, I disagree, there are plenty of gains to be had by bypassing the kernel mixer altogether.

Let's not be democratic where music is concerned, better products exist for a reason....

David, with all due respect what are you talking about?

Amarra does not bypass Core Audio. It is based on the soundBlade engine which (a quick Google search confirms) interfaces with hardware via Core Audio. Maybe you are just meaning it fixes the Core Audio volume at 100%: true but si does iTunes when used with digital output. Or do you mean there is no mixing of multiple tracks: also incorrect (at least pre Amarra 2.0 I'm unsure about the latest release) - a YouTube track can be mixed in with Amarra playback.

Specialist recording hardware exists for different reasons and anyway most interface via Core Audio to the recording software - Pro Tools being the exception.

I'm not saying Amarra doesn't sound better, but not for the reasons you commented on. All SonicStudio will say is it's "down to the way we do the maths" but to be Frank I'm not sure they know - the sound quality has been reported to vary between releases.

Eloise

The new Weiss INT202 and DAC202 have the TRSP feature that tests for bit perfection. It is sort of a magic mirror that tells you what's coming thru.

I know for a fact that Kent and Daniel's assurance is that both iTunes for Mac and Amarra re bit perfect when set up correctly. That means if you overlay the two streams side by side they would match perfectly.

How Amarra performs better is beyond me? Is it just perfecter?

Again the argument is always on better use of CPU etc. But since all computers are different hardware/software wise, one could do many other things that *may* affect the sound. I personally do not believe that. Try starting a big program, so some file copying or do some serious recalc with a complicated spreadsheet and I'd be very surprised if one could hear the difference. That in theory should have a lot more effect than Amarra babying the machine.

quote:

Originally posted by JYOW:
both iTunes for Mac and Amarra re bit perfect when set up correctly.

How is that possible with all of the re/up sampling that Amarra is performing?

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

quote:

Originally posted by JYOW:
both iTunes for Mac and Amarra re bit perfect when set up correctly.

How is that possible with all of the re/up sampling that Amarra is performing?

Amarra doesn't do any upsampling or resampling AFAIK unless you request it to.

Eloise,

Forgive my ignorance please. How does the Amarra "improve" on the bit perfect iTunes SQ if it is not either EQ'ing or up/over sampling?

As a staunch supporter of Foobar, you will never hear me state that it sounds better or worse than any other bit perfect player out there. I was never able to hear ANY difference between all of the various media players I have tinkered with over the last 4-5 years.

-Patrick

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
Forgive my ignorance please. How does the Amarra "improve" on the bit perfect iTunes SQ if it is not either EQ'ing or up/over sampling?

As a staunch supporter of Foobar, you will never hear me state that it sounds better or worse than any other bit perfect player out there. I was never able to hear ANY difference between all of the various media players I have tinkered with over the last 4-5 years.

To be honest, I've no idea how it "improves" on the sound quality of iTunes, etc. in fact in my demo's I've not heard it improve the sound myself. I do know (okay I'm pretty sure) it's been stated categorically by SonicStudio that it doesn't up/over/re-sample.

I'm still sceptical of improvements in SQ from software unless there is a problem - though my mind is open to the possibility.

Eloise

Thanks Eloise.

I am in the same boat, although open as well.

Any thoughts on how or why it can do this?

thanks!
Patrick

I have both and according to my Weiss the output from each is bit perfect. Pure music (to me) is ahead at the moment but there is a new release of Amarra coming out Mid July so that may change things - how any why they sound different can be down to a number of things but minimising the loading of the processor seems to make a difference as does memory play. It shouldn't affect the output, the Weiss is pulling data from the Mac rather than relying on any internal clocking within the Mac. Perhaps processor loading affects the spectrum of noise escaping from the cables connected to the Mac in close proximity to the rest of my Naim kit or conducted into the Weiss via the Firewire cable ?

Unfortunately as i've found with computer audio bit perfect only seems to be part of the story but hey its been a fun ride so far

James

quote:

there is a new release of Amarra coming out Mid July

James, is that Amarra 2.0 that you are referring to? I demo'ed v2.0 over the last couple of weeks (MBP>HiFace>nDAC) but could not pick up any difference over iTunes (blind tested). I was pretty surprised and a little disappointed to be honest. I would also say though that I struggle to get anything tangible from Pure Music, so perhaps I am just a bit weird!

I have Amarra Mini 2.0 and Pure Music here. I agree with James that I prefer PM 1.45. It's also cheaper (about £70) and easier to operate (no iLok, memory/gapless playback that only requires tagging the tracks once etc.).

All three (including iTunes output) measure bit perfect and all three sound different. The difference between Amarra and PM is smaller than the difference between iTunes and either of them IME.

You also have automatic sample rate switching of course, which is handy if you have a variety of sample rates in your iTunes library.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by gav111n:
I struggle to get anything tangible from Pure Music, so perhaps I am just a bit weird!

Something wrong there. Are you using PM in "hog' mode with the HiFace?

Joe

quote:

Something wrong there. Are you using PM in "hog' mode with the HiFace?

Yes Joe, I am using it in HOG mode.

With PM, I thought it was maybe slightly more airy and 3D-sounding? After a week I went back to iTunes and thought that iTunes was great, maybe preferable to PM. I have swapped back and forth a few times but I am really not sure that any difference is 'real' or worth even £70 (or whatever it is).

Recently I tried Amarra 2.0 and that truly seemed identical to iTunes (to me).

When I have 'thrown' money at things like the nDAC, HiFace, Hiline, PS for nDAC etc it gives me a clear return for the investment. I am so far not seeing this with trials of PM and Amarra.

I would temper all of the above by saying that: I am not sure I am a 'real' audiophile; I am aware that there are weaknesses in my system; I will definitely re-visit both players as I improve my system.

Gav.

Yes it's always difficult with so many variables. Be interesting to hear what you discover as you go. Mind you, maybe Andy is right - the nDAC (like the Benchmark) equalises the inputs as long as they are bit perfect.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by gav111n:

quote:

Something wrong there. Are you using PM in "hog' mode with the HiFace?

Yes Joe, I am using it in HOG mode.

With PM, I thought it was maybe slightly more airy and 3D-sounding? After a week I went back to iTunes and thought that iTunes was great, maybe preferable to PM. I have swapped back and forth a few times but I am really not sure that any difference is 'real' or worth even £70 (or whatever it is).

Recently I tried Amarra 2.0 and that truly seemed identical to iTunes (to me).

When I have 'thrown' money at things like the nDAC, HiFace, Hiline, PS for nDAC etc it gives me a clear return for the investment. I am so far not seeing this with trials of PM and Amarra.

I would temper all of the above by saying that: I am not sure I am a 'real' audiophile; I am aware that there are weaknesses in my system; I will definitely re-visit both players as I improve my system.

Gav.

Gav,

Like you, I could detect no real difference when using PM. My system may not be "revealing" enough, or it might just be my ears.

winky

You are leaving out one other obvious explanation. (sweet alliteration huh?)

ALAC or wav? For some this may be the limiter. There's a reason I've been recommending Sonos etc instead of computer manipulations. It tends to be better than most computer setups and competitive with better ones. Cheap and easy until you find something genuinely better as opposed to a preferred flavor.

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
You are leaving out one other obvious explanation. (sweet alliteration huh?)

Yeah, but I'm already known as a sarcastic and cynical bastard around these parts. I'm trying to be nice!

I also didn't mention that I found the software clunky and ugly.

quote:

a reason I've been recommending Sonos etc instead of computer manipulations

You sell it ?

Sure do, as does Best Buy down the street and for significantly higher margin. I can sell computer interfaces just as easily and make more money than by recommending the mailorder available, easy to self setup, low profit margin Sonos. This is like me asking if somone owns something and implying how much it biases their opinion of said kit. A Sonos is $350 US. I can't get a decent dinner with the wife for what I make on one. It's all relative and there are better than Sonos but user freindly reliable performanced for that price is a good thing. I sell it because it works. Generally a second system that's interfaced into the main for our clients.

Wives send their husbands back for more zones. I can't think of a better testament than that. I much prefer the OS to SB but if someone wanted cheap HiDef, I would go that way and I don't sell the SB Touch though it has been included in my recommendations.

quote:

Originally posted by gav111n:

quote:

HuwJ wrote: I'm in the same boat as you with Mac Pro & Optical out - not totally happy in comparison to the USB. I'll be interested to hear your opinion on the HiFace.

I guess you did not get much improvement turning off iTunes Equalizer etc?

Over the months I have experimented with various changes upstream of the nDAC, the majority of which made no noticeable difference to my hearing. Turning off Equaliser definitely gave a noticeable effect. However, the one change that really was night and day to me was swapping from optical connection (OptiChord) to HiFace (BNC-BNC with DC1). I don't understand why. I will dig the optical cable out again at some point to confirm whether the change was a big as I remember.

Gav.

Hi Gav,

I have managed to get around to your suggestion and I have to say turning off the Equalizer did seem to make a significant positive impact. I have not had time to compare lots of tracks but the few I have listened too are much nearer the USB. Thank you for the suggestion.

Regards,
Huw

John - just wondering. I think the Sonos is a great bit of kit and has the edge on a mac mini by virtue of its coax connection.

James,

Why would you prefer coax over toslink?

-patrick