Balanced Power:The thrill and pain of installing your very own electric substation
Posted by: Onthlam on 18 June 2005
This thread is intended to communicate my journey from first thought to making the decision to buy and install the product choice I made.
It is not my intention to go against any forum rules and would appreciate anyone who decides to add to the dicussion respects this wish.
There is,I believe, a great learning here(at least for me)and would like to get this into the minds of others who have the same issues with mains that I have/had.To allow those who have never had the chance or reason to believe that there are options out there(including me). Options that could possibly be the holistic resolution to your barriers from enjoying your Naim system.
Forget about doing things that might burn down your house. Everything I will tell you about is legal here in the states and in the U.K.
Some time ago there were a few threads that talked about the use of hydras and mains conditioners.
I was very interested as I have always thought that the Naim product is perfect when it leaves the factory and I/we screw it up when we get it home.
The last 10/11 monthes I have tried to minimize the effect my room,floor,and setup has on the quality of the music.To that point(for those who know and have seen the amount of work)it has been insane...
Redoing the Fraim 3 times to get it right.
9 floor jacks to minimize the effects of my horrible floor.Corian,porcelan lifts,SB3s,hockey pucks and a 16 foot span attached to the ceiling(garage)to dampen the floor of vibrations.
I can honestly say at the end of the day the kit sounds very good most of the time,great some of the time,and perfect came in the form of a 2 week period in April.
It sounded so good I was afraid to go to the restroom! Afraid that when I came back the conditions would have changed. The music was So emotional,harmonic,pitch perfect,and dynamic I did not want to go to work and when I did I could not wait to get home. Like I mentioned this only lasted for about 2 weeks and it was gone.
Why?
The weather was different than normal.The temp should have been in the 80s or 90s but ended up in the high 60s to the low to mid 70s.
No ac or heat.No pools on and it was for some a school holiday and folks were out of town.
The mains was quiet,very quiet. In all the years of living in California this had never happened before.
Not knowing what to do and where to turn was very frustrating.
Started reading everything I could get my hands on. Everything about ac/dc,conditioning,regeneration,surge protection,and gfci products for home and studio use. Some should remember that I was willing to get my own generator for the kit. This turned out to be not only a bad idea but the worst one of all.
It was by chance that I called NANA one morning and Dave Dever answered the phone. Dave had mentioned a product that he had used in his previous life that worked well in the studio.I had read a bunch of white paper and reviews on the use of balanced power but was still not convinced that this was the way to go.
As most products utilize current limiting designs(no matter what they said)I was not up for finding out for myself that this was true.
I ended up calling my electric company. I asked them if I could install a second meter and dedicated service to the house. I was told that a second meter could not be done and the limit for a single familt home was 320 amps total.
The electric company was willing to put a recorder on my meter to measure harmonics and voltage fluctuations.On that day it was our oldest daughters birthday. Hair driers were a blaze and the 3 girls were going to have nothing to do with the electric company shutting off the power for even a minute.Sucks to be me situation.....
Told them to look at it again after the 17th of the month.
Bottom line here is that It was legal a few years ago to put in the second meter. This is what I was to do when we were building our house. I was shy because of the cost and that was that.....
I was looking for a product that could supply more than enough current(at will with speed) with no gfci,regeneration,or any conditioning what so ever.
More reading and a couple of more calls to Dave put me in the direction I thought would give me the best bang for the buck.
Balanced power is as follows:
When 120-volt AC power is balanced, one side of the circuit has +60 Volts to ground while the other has -60 Volts to ground. (Across the circuit, the usual 120 Volts is still present. A European 230 Volt balanced power system has +115 Volts and -115 Volts to ground on the conductors.
Standard unbalanced AC power systems have a "hot" conductor and a "neutral" conductor. In the US, the "hot" conductor nominally has 120 Volts to ground and the "neutral" conductor has 0 Volts to ground. Europe has a similar system but with 230 volts on the "hot" and 0 Volts on the "neutral."
In a balanced power system, the voltages on the system's two output terminals are 180 degrees out of phase to each other with respect to ground. The system reference (ground) originates at the output center tap of an AC isolation transformer. In other words, the system's grounding reference (zero position) is located at the system's mean voltage differential or zero crossing point of the AC sinewave. This is a far more effective way to establish a reference potential for an AC system. The center tap is then grounded to Earth for electrical safety and for referencing shields.
There is never any voltage or current present on the ground reference in a balanced power system. Transient voltages and reactive currents which normally would appear on the neutral and ground wires are also out of phase and likewise, sum to zero at the ground reference thereby canceling out AC hum and noise.
A balanced AC Power system works the same way as a balanced audio circuit but with a higher amplitude. Both balanced audio and balanced AC incorporate phase cancellation or common mode rejection to eliminate noise.
I decided to contact a company that only makes balanced power systems. These folks were very helpfull on many different levels. They make boxes for in the house as well as sytems for the largest and most critical needs for todays space program. The list of studios and artists that utilize their products is simply a "whos Who" in the music,stage,and recording industry.
More phone calls to figure size and configuration. I was able to get a 10Kva transformer in a NEMA 12 box. This is a transformer that will provide a 100 amps and can run all day at 85 amps. Again with no gfci.There is no gfci device for anything over a 20 amp circuit(mine is 40).Nothing to limit the amount of current that the kit would need at any given moment was installed. The in house boxes come with some of these devices. I was staying away.
Who to install this 325 pound beast?
My family and I went up to Oregon to fetch this thing. The back of my car lowered 5 inches as the lift lowered it onto the cargo area. What am I getting myself into!? I was able to get a material lift (to rent) for a day and spent the day before reinforceing the area in the garage the box would sit on. More lag bolts and angle iron than I have thought would be used to erect most large kiddy play sets was used. It was hot and I had my doubts. Blew up one of the Dewalt 18 volt batteries in the process. Not happy...
A week before this work I was able to speak to the most experienced of all installers. He had made it clear that any sparky could do the job. I called mine and was ready to set up a time for him to come in. I had met him at my place of business and just did not feal great about the potential for success. I called Barry back in lovely southern California."Barry, I need you to install this thing.Everyone has said you have the experience and the track record that will insure the best sound."
I flew him in and off to the house to get it juiced up.
Took 7 to 8 hours to get it done and the power was on.
There is a 30 day money back on all of their products. Thank God!!
I was not happy at all. Everything was dull and compressed. The music was nothing like it was before we started.
I was told that this is common. The transformer needs to run in and stabilize.My take away was to walk away for a couple of days and then make a go at it.
After three days the sound had improved a bunch.Very harmonic,pitch was greatly inproved,and the timeing had improved (that small amount that always got on my nerves.)
There was something still very wrong. With all the benefits there was a sence of dynamic supression. What! A 100 amp system does not have the speed to supply a 2 channel hi-fi current?!
Kuma-This is where your words on the forum played a huge part.
I remember a discussion about the amount of damping on ringing boxes. That the more you put on-the more you may dull the sound. I have been on the hockey puck band wagon for a while now and have loved the effects...
Today I was about to give up when I remembered Kumas words and took off the pucks and replaced them with much smaller(less mass)items.
Holy SHITE!!! What a difference. Had everything else but now I have the dynamics and the speed!!!! I am out of my mind happy....Marc- Calm down and listen. Listen more. Listen even more.
The high end is not described as sweet or harsh. I would describe it as cymbals and triangle. the Bass is not fat, it is a Bass guitar. The vocals-WOW!
This work has been (to this point) the most important upgrade I have ever done. Not saying it will be great tomorrow but if it continues to run in for the next 30 or so days(as they have stated)it will be amazing. I did ask for a 45 day return policy and I was obliged.
The cost at retail for the device I bought was less than a SuperCap!
As much as I was in the camp of nothing will fix this? As much as I was in line with those who believed that there is no device worthy of Naim kit?
I now believe that the "source first" mindset begins with the mains. Clean this up,fix everything else you can and hope for the best.
For me it was a huge leap of faith. I am glad that it worked out. Still, lets see what happens in the near future.
I have not mentioned the name of the brand on purpose.If you have any interest? Please email me at closedmail@comcast.net
Pictures to follow.
Best to all,
Marc
It is not my intention to go against any forum rules and would appreciate anyone who decides to add to the dicussion respects this wish.
There is,I believe, a great learning here(at least for me)and would like to get this into the minds of others who have the same issues with mains that I have/had.To allow those who have never had the chance or reason to believe that there are options out there(including me). Options that could possibly be the holistic resolution to your barriers from enjoying your Naim system.
Forget about doing things that might burn down your house. Everything I will tell you about is legal here in the states and in the U.K.
Some time ago there were a few threads that talked about the use of hydras and mains conditioners.
I was very interested as I have always thought that the Naim product is perfect when it leaves the factory and I/we screw it up when we get it home.
The last 10/11 monthes I have tried to minimize the effect my room,floor,and setup has on the quality of the music.To that point(for those who know and have seen the amount of work)it has been insane...
Redoing the Fraim 3 times to get it right.
9 floor jacks to minimize the effects of my horrible floor.Corian,porcelan lifts,SB3s,hockey pucks and a 16 foot span attached to the ceiling(garage)to dampen the floor of vibrations.
I can honestly say at the end of the day the kit sounds very good most of the time,great some of the time,and perfect came in the form of a 2 week period in April.
It sounded so good I was afraid to go to the restroom! Afraid that when I came back the conditions would have changed. The music was So emotional,harmonic,pitch perfect,and dynamic I did not want to go to work and when I did I could not wait to get home. Like I mentioned this only lasted for about 2 weeks and it was gone.
Why?
The weather was different than normal.The temp should have been in the 80s or 90s but ended up in the high 60s to the low to mid 70s.
No ac or heat.No pools on and it was for some a school holiday and folks were out of town.
The mains was quiet,very quiet. In all the years of living in California this had never happened before.
Not knowing what to do and where to turn was very frustrating.
Started reading everything I could get my hands on. Everything about ac/dc,conditioning,regeneration,surge protection,and gfci products for home and studio use. Some should remember that I was willing to get my own generator for the kit. This turned out to be not only a bad idea but the worst one of all.
It was by chance that I called NANA one morning and Dave Dever answered the phone. Dave had mentioned a product that he had used in his previous life that worked well in the studio.I had read a bunch of white paper and reviews on the use of balanced power but was still not convinced that this was the way to go.
As most products utilize current limiting designs(no matter what they said)I was not up for finding out for myself that this was true.
I ended up calling my electric company. I asked them if I could install a second meter and dedicated service to the house. I was told that a second meter could not be done and the limit for a single familt home was 320 amps total.
The electric company was willing to put a recorder on my meter to measure harmonics and voltage fluctuations.On that day it was our oldest daughters birthday. Hair driers were a blaze and the 3 girls were going to have nothing to do with the electric company shutting off the power for even a minute.Sucks to be me situation.....
Told them to look at it again after the 17th of the month.
Bottom line here is that It was legal a few years ago to put in the second meter. This is what I was to do when we were building our house. I was shy because of the cost and that was that.....
I was looking for a product that could supply more than enough current(at will with speed) with no gfci,regeneration,or any conditioning what so ever.
More reading and a couple of more calls to Dave put me in the direction I thought would give me the best bang for the buck.
Balanced power is as follows:
When 120-volt AC power is balanced, one side of the circuit has +60 Volts to ground while the other has -60 Volts to ground. (Across the circuit, the usual 120 Volts is still present. A European 230 Volt balanced power system has +115 Volts and -115 Volts to ground on the conductors.
Standard unbalanced AC power systems have a "hot" conductor and a "neutral" conductor. In the US, the "hot" conductor nominally has 120 Volts to ground and the "neutral" conductor has 0 Volts to ground. Europe has a similar system but with 230 volts on the "hot" and 0 Volts on the "neutral."
In a balanced power system, the voltages on the system's two output terminals are 180 degrees out of phase to each other with respect to ground. The system reference (ground) originates at the output center tap of an AC isolation transformer. In other words, the system's grounding reference (zero position) is located at the system's mean voltage differential or zero crossing point of the AC sinewave. This is a far more effective way to establish a reference potential for an AC system. The center tap is then grounded to Earth for electrical safety and for referencing shields.
There is never any voltage or current present on the ground reference in a balanced power system. Transient voltages and reactive currents which normally would appear on the neutral and ground wires are also out of phase and likewise, sum to zero at the ground reference thereby canceling out AC hum and noise.
A balanced AC Power system works the same way as a balanced audio circuit but with a higher amplitude. Both balanced audio and balanced AC incorporate phase cancellation or common mode rejection to eliminate noise.
I decided to contact a company that only makes balanced power systems. These folks were very helpfull on many different levels. They make boxes for in the house as well as sytems for the largest and most critical needs for todays space program. The list of studios and artists that utilize their products is simply a "whos Who" in the music,stage,and recording industry.
More phone calls to figure size and configuration. I was able to get a 10Kva transformer in a NEMA 12 box. This is a transformer that will provide a 100 amps and can run all day at 85 amps. Again with no gfci.There is no gfci device for anything over a 20 amp circuit(mine is 40).Nothing to limit the amount of current that the kit would need at any given moment was installed. The in house boxes come with some of these devices. I was staying away.
Who to install this 325 pound beast?
My family and I went up to Oregon to fetch this thing. The back of my car lowered 5 inches as the lift lowered it onto the cargo area. What am I getting myself into!? I was able to get a material lift (to rent) for a day and spent the day before reinforceing the area in the garage the box would sit on. More lag bolts and angle iron than I have thought would be used to erect most large kiddy play sets was used. It was hot and I had my doubts. Blew up one of the Dewalt 18 volt batteries in the process. Not happy...
A week before this work I was able to speak to the most experienced of all installers. He had made it clear that any sparky could do the job. I called mine and was ready to set up a time for him to come in. I had met him at my place of business and just did not feal great about the potential for success. I called Barry back in lovely southern California."Barry, I need you to install this thing.Everyone has said you have the experience and the track record that will insure the best sound."
I flew him in and off to the house to get it juiced up.
Took 7 to 8 hours to get it done and the power was on.
There is a 30 day money back on all of their products. Thank God!!
I was not happy at all. Everything was dull and compressed. The music was nothing like it was before we started.
I was told that this is common. The transformer needs to run in and stabilize.My take away was to walk away for a couple of days and then make a go at it.
After three days the sound had improved a bunch.Very harmonic,pitch was greatly inproved,and the timeing had improved (that small amount that always got on my nerves.)
There was something still very wrong. With all the benefits there was a sence of dynamic supression. What! A 100 amp system does not have the speed to supply a 2 channel hi-fi current?!
Kuma-This is where your words on the forum played a huge part.
I remember a discussion about the amount of damping on ringing boxes. That the more you put on-the more you may dull the sound. I have been on the hockey puck band wagon for a while now and have loved the effects...
Today I was about to give up when I remembered Kumas words and took off the pucks and replaced them with much smaller(less mass)items.
Holy SHITE!!! What a difference. Had everything else but now I have the dynamics and the speed!!!! I am out of my mind happy....Marc- Calm down and listen. Listen more. Listen even more.
The high end is not described as sweet or harsh. I would describe it as cymbals and triangle. the Bass is not fat, it is a Bass guitar. The vocals-WOW!
This work has been (to this point) the most important upgrade I have ever done. Not saying it will be great tomorrow but if it continues to run in for the next 30 or so days(as they have stated)it will be amazing. I did ask for a 45 day return policy and I was obliged.
The cost at retail for the device I bought was less than a SuperCap!
As much as I was in the camp of nothing will fix this? As much as I was in line with those who believed that there is no device worthy of Naim kit?
I now believe that the "source first" mindset begins with the mains. Clean this up,fix everything else you can and hope for the best.
For me it was a huge leap of faith. I am glad that it worked out. Still, lets see what happens in the near future.
I have not mentioned the name of the brand on purpose.If you have any interest? Please email me at closedmail@comcast.net
Pictures to follow.
Best to all,
Marc
"How can it take days for the statiuc charge to dissipate, and how do you know that it has?"
Simple answer is:Because I tried it,it worked,and that is how long it took.
(Test for static)Rub wool socks on carpet until your arm hair stands up. Next touch daughter on tip of ear....)
Having had my own experiences with static charge,the type that shuts down Quads-And have talked to others who have tried to their own glee-
The first time I tried this, I heard a difference but did not like the change.The second time the same.Just decided to leave it alone and see what happens.Over night there was a change that I favored and in another day was an improvement(IMO).
Your results may vary.While supplies last.May not be used in conjunction with any other offer.
Try it-You'le like it.......
Marc
Simple answer is:Because I tried it,it worked,and that is how long it took.
(Test for static)Rub wool socks on carpet until your arm hair stands up. Next touch daughter on tip of ear....)
Having had my own experiences with static charge,the type that shuts down Quads-And have talked to others who have tried to their own glee-
The first time I tried this, I heard a difference but did not like the change.The second time the same.Just decided to leave it alone and see what happens.Over night there was a change that I favored and in another day was an improvement(IMO).
Your results may vary.While supplies last.May not be used in conjunction with any other offer.
Try it-You'le like it.......
Marc
quote:He was amazed by the sheer size and bulk of the tranformer with regard to its low current application to be.
quote:.....and opined how could it possibly get any better
Interesting thing trying to deal with electricians in connection with HiFi
Ron-
Hope the install went well.
How was he to get the box up? It took everything Phee and I had to keep it straight on the lift....
Just got done listening. Ron, the darn thing sounds like QUADS on steroids. So much fun I can not stand it. well, I can and will.
That 4th week of run in was the key.
Talk soon,
Marc
Hope the install went well.
How was he to get the box up? It took everything Phee and I had to keep it straight on the lift....
Just got done listening. Ron, the darn thing sounds like QUADS on steroids. So much fun I can not stand it. well, I can and will.
That 4th week of run in was the key.
Talk soon,
Marc