Downsizing

"I think this question of balance includes the source when the source is digital. When the source is analogue I'm as source first as you like (sorry too much source) - my first system was LP12/Ittok/Basik/NAD 3020/Mission 700s - and I went to a Troika before any other changes; but I found that a supposed upgrade of my digital source from CD3 to CDX unbalanced my system. This may have been a) because I'm just a CDX troll, b) because my CDX was underperforming, c) because I expected more from a player costing over 2K or d) because synergy was lost, deficiencies in CDs' physical and recording quality were being revealed in an unpleasant instead of rewarding fashion.

Buying the CDX transformed my musical panorama. With the CD3 I had had a rather murky window into a beautiful landscape but with the new player I had a clean, transparent window looking into an industrial estate. So don't clean any windows until you're sure of the view. It was not until I had gone all the way from CD3/32.5/HC/AE1s to CDS2/CDPS/82/S-Cap/N805s that my pastoral bliss was restored.".

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Originally posted by Alex S:
Since I have just posted a reply to Tony's exact same quote elsewhere, I hope you don't mind me pasting it here too:

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No Worries, I was struck by the the thread drift in Tony's Phono Stage thread, but thought that the ideas interesting enough for a dedicated thread.

Peter

The music always come first rather than the little black boxes and as I collect World Music of varying recording quality I do think that detail is not the last word in pleasure.

Bruce

My system used to live in a 11x15 room in Scotland and now it lives in an open area with loads of space, in comparison I was getting only 70% of its performance in the previous location.

I think more modest systems can sound more flattering in rooms that don't work as well, but this is more due to the speaker/room interaction as opposed to the components.

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So don't clean any windows until you're sure of the view.

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very well put.

enjoy

ken

... or, defective equipment.

enjoy

ken

Rico lent me his Kans to try in my new room and I did an extensive comparison to SBL's here. I consider myself rather lucky because my new space has really high ceilings and no rear wall to speak of (the system lives in the mezzanine part of the space).

The first thing I noticed is that Kans are hopelessly outclassed by SBL's here, in every imaginable way. They don't do volume or refinement very well. But they are very revealing and give a good impression at sounding "big", keep the tunes simple and they work, any other variable and they just sound like they are at the limit. Curiously in my plave in Scotland they worked fine and the difference between them and SBL's wasn't as great as the price differential would suggest.

I'm not knocking kans at all, I have lived with them in the past, but the room is such an influence on the overall sound, that it's probably worth trying to fix the speaker room interaction (i,e get what you have working well - or if the sound is poor try new speakers) as opposed to changing any of the components.
upstream.

I haven't heard Tony's system and can't comment on his "fix" to his system, but if it were me, I would be disinclined to change his fine amplifiers when he has an excellent source (his P9). I cannot believe a Nait2 will do justice to a P9 or a CDX - sorry I don't. You just won't hear what it's capable of.

Maybe the time would be ripe to try some SBL's (s/h starting at £650), then in time upgrade the Preamp (I think a 102 - HiCap, kills a 32.5 - HiCap), downgrade the 250 to a 140 or a 160 or something. CD players can wait in my view. Upgrade the preamp/speakers and hear what your source can do.

"I think there is a point with equipment as good as Naim where the amplifiers and speakers become way too good for the source component or source material, and reveal it too explicitly, ..."

at which point the weakest link in the chain is the source, whatever it is. however, what is hard to determine, except very roughly, what that cutoff point is with a given source and electronics. equipment faults and improper installation also complicates the issue.

there are 2 somewhat contradictory observations i have heard people (including I) make on this forum:

(a) my system sounds so good that everything i throw at it sounds better
(b) my system is now so revealing that i can heard all the gremlins in the recordings, as i result, i dont enjoy quite a lot of my previous recordings that much.

i suspect (a) should help in establishing this cut off, but i am not sure. will try it one of these days.

does a 52/supercap/2*500/active DBL system reveal any weaknesses in the cdsii?? or fully naimed lp12, with XX2 or higher quality needle??

enjoy

ken

As mentioned on another thread I have now got a absolutely mint condition Nait 2 for a real bargain price. I gave it a good workout yesterday and its really excellent (once I discovered that the CD input sounds crap - it has reduced gain, and I suspect treble roll off by design). It drives the Kans remarkably well, and show none of the slight plot loss in the treble that my older Nait 1 exhibits (I suspect this is just because the Nait 1 wants recapping). Bottom line is the Nait 2 is definitely good enough for where I want to go, once I get all my system changes sorted out it can go away for a recap and full service. I reckon that along with the classic old style 250 the new style Nait 2 is Naim's nicest looking design from an aesthetic perspective.

The other big discovery is that I personally prefer the QS Ref to my Mana. I took my Reference Table along for a dem at Audio Works (note new name) in Cheadle and made my choice. Stands are unbelievably important, and seem to effect far more than the presentation of the music. The Mana performed well, and did all the Mana things (punch, detail, space), but for me the Quadraspire played better tunes, and I'm in this purely for the tunes!

So, goodbye big amps and angle iron, hello very source heavy system with a tiny amp on a wobbly stand.

The forums trusty Naim Market contains rather a lot of additions…

Tony.

phew... the equipment support landscape starts to change???

enjoy

ken

I do find this fascinating.

You and Mike Hanson are like two express trains hurtling along in opposite directions. Thankfully, both your signalling is better than Railtrack's.

Instead of saving up for a 52 and 135s perhaps I should sell 82/S-Cap/1 250/N805s and go to LP12etc/CDS2/CDPS/32.5/Hi-Cap/250/AE1s (actually the Inland Revenue may force this course of action).
Since I already have the necessary "downgrades" at home I'm going to give it a listen.

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You and Mike Hanson are like two express trains hurtling along in opposite directions.

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… and I know exactly where I want to get off!

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Instead of saving up for a 52 and 135s perhaps I should sell 82/S-Cap/1 250/N805s and go to LP12etc/CDS2/CDPS/32.5/Hi-Cap/250/AE1s (actually the Inland Revenue may force this course of action).

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I had a look at your profile, how are you using your 2 x 250s? I guess you are passive bi-amping, though there is a school of thought that using them as 135s is actually much better - use one channel of each amp, and if you think its better disconnect the unused channel of the SNAIC (or of course swap 'em for real 135s which are better again). As for your downgrade idea, obviously I would be more than happy to sell you another 32.5 / Hicap / 250 in fabulous condition to enable you to go the complete dual mono route, just drive one channel of each combo

How do the AE1s stack up against the B&Ws? I always quite liked AE1s, though they are real amp suckers.

Tony.

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(a) my system sounds so good that everything i throw at it sounds better
(b) my system is now so revealing that i can heard all the gremlins in the recordings, as i result, i dont enjoy quite a lot of my previous recordings that much.

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I would say that it's a combination of both for me: All of my recordings sound better, but I'm aware of more of their foibles too. Since the overall average is an improvement, I appreciate the upgrades. It's not so "perfect" that I can't accept crappy recordings, except if the music itself is bad, of course. (That ABBA Gold disc that my wife insists on playing is pain incarnate. )

While Tony feels distracted by the details, and strives primarily for PRaT, I like a good blend of all things. That's why I'll never be part of the Flat Earth Patrol.

Tony said:

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and I know exactly where I want to get off!

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I think I do too. My 135s are coming next week, and I need to get my second rack sorted at some point. Once I do that, I think I'll stay there for a while. I may continue auditioning speakers, hoping for that holy grail. However, I won't feel any pain in the interim, and if I never get anything better, I'm not sad.

Regarding racks, your preference for the QS Reference has intrigued me. Before I dump a bunch more money into Mana, I may have to arrange a dem. My Naim dealer also handles QS, but I don't think he's got any of the Reference line in stock.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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The forums trusty Naim Market contains rather a lot of additions

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And no P9. Did it survive the Lonorgan paradigm shift or have you simply not done the LP12/P9 showdown yet?

Joe

… and I know exactly where I want to get off!

you guys are lucky.

i dont know where to get off!!!

enjoy

ken

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Mana performed well, and did all the Mana things (punch, detail, space), but for me the Quadraspire played better tunes, and I'm in this purely for the tunes!

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I dare you to post that on the Mana forum, they're a very welcoming bunch open to lots of alternative ideas

Go on - dare ya!

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And no P9.

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Indeed not. I really don't want to ditch the P9, and will only do it as a last resort. I have had the P9 from new, so would make a massive loss by selling it, (though LP12s are far more devalued, so I could swap for a really high spec one). The other thing is that I really love a hell a lot of what the P9 does, it has fantastic pitch stability and times like a demon, my only issue is that it can sound a little thin and sterile in my system. I think I can fix this. Another big factor is that I don't really like the Lingo, and have about 800 12" singles...

I am making so many other changes at the moment that it would be pretty daft to loose all the constants, I am definitely becoming more and more convinced that I can get my system to work exactly how I want it to in my new room. Its just the whole 'there are no absolutes' thing, everything just needed a rethink and I needed to understand my priorities more clearly and aim more directly to achieve them within my budget. Can't wait, just need to shift a ton of stuff first.

Tony.

Roll up, roll up, get yer 'i-fi 'ere…

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I dare you to post that on the Mana forum, they're a very welcoming bunch open to lots of alternative ideas

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I am not attempting to start any flame wars at all, and anyway I like the Mana crowd. I have never been one of the fundamentalists for Naim, Mana, or anyone else, and am not about to become one for Quadraspire now. There is nothing wrong with Mana, it is still IMHO one of the best available support systems, and anyone who does not hear it before making a decision is a complete fool. I have my own priorities as to what I want, and I am pretty damn sure they are quite different from many here or next door in Manaland, anyway they should love me for it, after all there's now some quality Mana kit going cheap

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Anyhow, I'd still be curious to hear the new Quadraspire (I actually liked what the old one did at Matthew's, apart from valving-out the detail)...

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The new stuff does not do that at all. For what its worth I could not live with the standard QS. It is still not at all 'in your face', but the detail is there. That horrible "wooden" coloration of the original is gone too.

Tony.

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Another big factor is that I don't really like the Lingo, and have about 800 12" singles...

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You surprise me there Tony, is that opinion based on a non-modded version in a Naim system?

I really like the Lingo, it added such a level of musicality, tunefullness, timing precision and flow that I have to pinch myself sometimes in case it's all a dream.

Andy.

P.S. For the record I'm not remotely anti-Mana either, but I got an interesting reaction when I posted my own (unusual) experiences with it, in what were, admittedly, less than ideal circumstances.

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You surprise me there Tony, is that opinion based on a non-modded version in a Naim system?

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Yes. One of my friends has just done your mod to his Lingo, and reckons it is a really big improvement. I have not heard it yet, though am sure he will be right.

Perhaps the Lingo isn't bad after all, though I probably prefer the Valhalla to a bog standard one!

Tony.

The AE1s need a 250 or more. I was very happy with mine - they're fast, dynamic and can go surprisingly loud without strain (which is why I ditched Kans in order to get them) but I was pissed off with their built in obsolescence - the soft rubber surrounds to the bass/mid driver perishes after about 8 years and you have to buy new drivers.
I demmed the B&W 701nts (or whatever they're called) against the AE1s and the latter were far preferable. I consider the B&W N805s to be better mainly in the bass and for extracting Vuk's beloved detail. Contrary to popular forum belief they are fast (on granite stands), refined and seamless without being boring and are not flabby in the bass. Nonethless, if one is used to a bass light speaker like the AE1 or the Kans virtually any bass can be off-puting. I'm going to try the AE1s again with my upgraded components just to make sure I've not made some "Hi-Fi" mistake. My problem is the B&Ws are the only things I bought new (like your P9) so I'd loose most by flogging them. (But I do have some MS20i pearls which I bought for £60 sitting in a cupboard to replace the home AE1s should they end up back at work).

As far as bi-amping is concerned - yes I passive bi-amp in the conventional manner. To be honest I can't really be bothered to turn 250s into quasi 135s - people who've done this say its not really worth it. If I continue to upgrade instead of downgrade then it makes good financial sense to flog the 250s and buy s/h 135s - should only cost about £800 for quite an improvement. If I get rich though I would put 1 250 back on the AE1s and flog the 110 (perhaps I can catch you on the bounce and flog it to you) and then use a pair of 135s for the Bass/mids of the N805s and the remaining 250 on the tweeters - a Hansonesque gesture don't you think?

Sorry I gave such a fulsome reply to a casual enquiry - you can wake up now.

Alex

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I find the stand so clumsy and ugly I could never live with it inside my house--not even a closet.

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We can agree in this respect. Although the wood is a nice touch, the overall visual effect rather gangly and tacky.

I'm actually against the looks of almost all stands. They're just so bloody intrusive! Only the Fraim is semi-acceptable, because it has a real sense of class (at least from the pictures I've seen).

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Mick Parry

may i humbly suggest that this has the potential of causing some confusion to simple minds like mine.

as far as i am concerned, in terms of QS, we are talking about the old Q4 (or how ever many tiers) and the new QS Ref. i had understood that Tonly L prefered the QS Ref.

now, whats this "hybrid" rack? is this a standard product or is this one of larry's specials thats not going to be available from QS themselves? so the hybrid is better than the QS ref is it??

I am very interested in the QS ref, but i am not too happy with the product confusion with this hybrid business...

anyone care to clear this "confusion" in MY head, which may not be a confusion to anyone else. if i was QS i would worry a bit.

enjoy

ken

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The other thing is that I really love a hell a lot of what the P9 does, it has fantastic pitch stability and times like a demon, my only issue is that it can sound a little thin and sterile in my system. I think I can fix this

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I am making so many other changes at the moment that it would be pretty daft to loose all the constants, I am definitely becoming more and more convinced that I can get my system to work exactly how I want it to in my new room.

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Rico - ok, the Kans are sorted, now whatabout the rainforests?

[This message was edited by Rico on FRIDAY 24 August 2001 at 20:16.]