quote:
There is also something that I have over the past few years I have come to realise that I don't get on with about the many big systems that I have heard. I think there is a point with equipment as good as Naim where the amplifiers and speakers become way too good for the source component or source material, and reveal it too explicitly, especially when that source is digital. I can't quite explain what I mean in words, but sit me in front of a really high resolution system and I get distracted by the sound and presentation, and as a result find the music much harder to follow. I guess a lot of this is probably because I have a fair bit of experience in the techniques of music creation and recording, so having say mic types and placement revealed etc is just more information than I want. I just want to get lost in the music, and funnily I usually find this easier to do with very well balanced but quite modest systems. Basically I don't even aspire to the real high end!
Thanks to Tony Lonorgan for the above quote, there's much to provoke thought. I have aspired to the 'real high end', where I yearned for those mega american power amps etc, and even started down that road. Fortunately for me they got lost/sold in the countless moves that I made about 15 years ago. In the early nineties I installed a temporary system in my temporary home...well I have only recently replaced the amplifiers with a Nait5 and it's now the only system that I own. Tony says he wants a CDX, and I say me too!, I've listened to this CD player in the context of a mid to high Naim system (CDX/XPS/82/Hi/250/Shahinian arcs) and was completely wowed. At home I use a Micromega Stage 6, which does not in stop me from enjoying the music. It may be all I need, I certainly think the Nait is great amp and do not yearn for more oomph or detail.
Tony's remarks about detail are interesting too, I wouldn't know how to recognize the difference between different microphones, I can't even identify the difference between a gibson and a fender guitar ( I can recognize Willie Nelson's guitar, mayb there is hope ?). So present loads of detail to some people and they'll never see it, or hear it.
For me, upgrading is an intellectual pursuit, rather than satisfying a real audio need. I enjoy the upgrade trail, one of the decisions that spurred the Nait purchase, was to decrease boxes, I've since added the Stageline. Then I start to think of eventually getting a 82/hi/250 etc ... but I think it's because it gives me a 'justifiable' reason to spend some money, and let's face it 1500GBP spent on, say, a 250 would result in something that takes up less space than the equivalent amount spent on CDs or LPs.
Thanks, Tony, for the Source first saga
Peter
Posted on: 24 August 2001 by Allan Probin
quote:
anyone care to clear this "confusion" in MY head
Ken,
Hybrid just refers to the fact that the stand used contained a mixture of "reference" and "standard" components. From what Dave posted, it looks like all the shelves were std quadraspire and about half the metalwork was reference. From a component-count POV, its about 75% std, 25% reference. "Cherry" refers to the standard cherry venered shelves. Reference shelves have a non-veneered laquer finish.
Noticing that no reference shelves were used, I feel quite guilty now for insisting on taking Audio Works' only dem shelves from the shop for my own greedy purposes. Sorry !
Allan
Posted on: 24 August 2001 by Tony L
quote:
as far as i am concerned, in terms of QS, we are talking about the old Q4 (or how ever many tiers) and the new QS Ref. i had understood that Tony L preferred the QS Ref.
Larry was happy that it was effectively a Reference. It certainly had very little to do with a stock Q4. The Quadraspire Reference is effectively a Q4 heavily tweaked by Larry, to the point that most components and their structure are now changed. I visit the Audio Counsel relatively regularly, so have heard the stand at many stages of its development.
Here is my take on the fundamental design changes I have heard over my visits to Larry’s:
- Standard Q4 – plays music very well, but sounds to my ears like crap from a sonic perspective, its wooden sounding and inherently coloured, and detail masks. I love its flow and relaxed presentation, but it simply blocks information, if it didn’t I’m sure Larry would not have bothered tweaking…
- Drilled out veneer, spacers, very floppy construction, bottom two shelves are done up rigid to give some structural rigidity, ideally no equipment is sited here – Even though this is effectively a customisation of the stock Q4 parts it represents a fundamental change in the stands ability to enable me to enjoy music. This one really works, it plays music and doesn’t obviously break the timbre the way the stock Q4 does to my ears. It is IMHO at this point that the Quadraspire became a really serious contender.
- Tapered or waisted aluminium Reference rods, made to Larry’s design – stand construction is as above, the rod material and engineering is superior, as is the sound. For me there is just a little more of everything with the new rods. It was a mixture of this stand and the one above that we heard last night, the key sections that the source components were compared on was all the new stuff.
- Shelf coatings – this is where it all starts getting too weird for me. The Disciples of Larry’s Experimentation (henceforth known as DOLE)all reckon that the new black painted finish is radically superior to the cherry veneer. It is certainly very different, and both my friend Roger who also came to the dem and myself preferred the cherry veneer.
The new black coating is certainly a little more open, but to both our ears it lost musical coherence and suffered a little from “detail flinging” in the way that Hutter or Fraim, and to a lesser degree Mana do from our perspective. I.e. we were both being distracted with insignificant low level detail at the expense of the musical performance. I may have to re-evaluate this, as the DOLE are all so adamant that black is better, and I do trust that Larry is listening to the right things. At the moment though, for both Roger and myself the cherry sounds better, and thought so at the last dem too.
As to Ken’s question, just make sure it is a QS Reference you hear, not a stock Q4.
Tony.
Posted on: 24 August 2001 by Andrew L. Weekes
quote:
Perhaps the Lingo isn't bad after all, though I probably prefer the Valhalla to a bog standard one!
I can understand that, in the context of what you are trying to acheive.
The Lingo unmodded transformed the LP12, but it does have a detrimental effect in exactly the areas you are seeking to improve.
quote:
I have not heard it yet, though am sure he will be right.
You owe it to yourself to hear it, not from any big-headedness on my part but out of sympathy for the fact I typed the whole original post detailing the mod on a Palmpilot 
Palm users out there will understand the dedication that entering a post that long, onto a tiny handheld device with no keyboard, takes. The reason I did it - I couldn't drag myself away to the computer keyboard long enough it really is very good!
Andy.
Posted on: 24 August 2001 by ken c
As to Ken’s question, just make sure it is a QS Reference you hear, not a stock Q4. many thanks tony. i think i understand now -- the "hybrid" is just a dem convenience -- and will never be the std product.
i will listen to the real mccoy -- QS Ref.
enjoy
ken
Posted on: 25 August 2001 by Rico
quote:
Larry was happy that it was effectively a Reference.
I am happy that with go-faster stripes and all of the M3 suspension mods, the BMW for sale is effectively an M3. Ok, lacks the high-tensile steel, and doesn't have the M3 aerodynamics...
You wouldn't really be inclined to accept that from a car dealer now, would you?
Launch a new product - launch the product, not it's half-brother! My take on all this is that it's likely a very fine product, and I'd certainly like a listen. But confusing your potential purchasers makes for a smaller market. Ever heard the same thing happen in software, for example?
Get yer used cars here! 
Rico - ok, the Kans are sorted, now whatabout the rainforests?
Posted on: 25 August 2001 by ken c
rico:
Launch a new product - launch the product, not it's half-brother! My take on all this is that it's likely a very fine product, and I'd certainly like a listen. But confusing your potential purchasers makes for a smaller market.
my sentiments exactly. would be a real shame if the ref is spoiled by confused product identity.
enjoy
ken
Posted on: 25 August 2001 by Chris Brandon
quote:
posted THURSDAY 23 August 2001 15:05
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
source first??i quote Tony again:
"I think there is a point with equipment as good as Naim where the amplifiers and speakers become way too good for the source component or source material, and reveal it too explicitly, ..."
at which point the weakest link in the chain is the source, whatever it is
Very interesting and thought provoking point.
I am wondering if we are getting to a point whereby even the very best source componants are now starting to be "hampered" by the physical limitations of the media itself .Afterall,there is only so much information that can be gotten off any given format and until the specifications of cd/vinyl (or whatever),get better,then perhaps it may not always be the best policy to "open up the window" too far.
Just a thought...
Regards
Chris
Posted on: 25 August 2001 by Rico
quote:
If pressed he could have assembled a full blown QS ref on Thursday night, but it wasn't necessary in the context of the dem - Tony after all has expressed a preference for the sound of the Cherry shelving.
Dave
I appreciate yours (and of course, the entire crew at Audio Works) candour - but this is precisely the type of statement that mana detractors send up/take the piss out of when used in conjunction with the M kit.
Sure, I own the M kit - but note this as a bystander.
Rico - ok, the Kans are sorted, now whatabout the rainforests?
Posted on: 28 August 2001 by Steve Toy
Andrew L.
I should be doing the dem shortly, and Mr John W. of Mana knows very well that I'll be posting my findings (for what they may be worth) on his Forum.
I shall try to be as fair and objective as is humanly possible.
Meanwhile, I'll just get back to enjoying my new QS Ref table - it arrived today (FULL Ref spec with black rods as well as black shelves)
It's always a nice day for it, have a good one 
Steve
[This message was edited by Steven Toy on WEDNESDAY 29 August 2001 at 00:58.]
