Euro Referendum - not Worthy of Discussion?

Steve

I am inclined to agree with you.

The reality of life is that we all put our own nation first and there is no way I want this country run by the same bunch of innept socialist who are screwing up the French economy.

We should welcome trade agreements but a EU constitution is all things to all men and it just will not work.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
The reality of life is that we all put our own nation first and there is no way I want this country run by the same bunch of innept socialist who are screwing up the French economy.

Mick,

Are you saying that the Government of France is Socialist and Inept ? Or are you refering to some other force ?

Peter

Steve (and Mick, for that matter),

In my view, the reasons for the rejection of the constitition for europe in France are more rooted in the current state of domestic politics rather than an actual rejection of the constitition, per se.

It's true that the extreme left (Ligue Communiste revolutinaire, & Partie Communiste Française) denounced the 'Liberal Anglo saxon' phrasing of the constitution and it was essentially the point of attack. But other groups notably on the extreme right (Front National and other Mouvement pour la France), rejected it because the are viscerally opposed to European construction and made an amalgam with the possible candidature of Turkey for a place in the European community. These extremes would account for some 25% of the votes expressed.

The rejection of the constition via the referendum, was sadly a response to a question that wasn't asked. Most people voting no, were voting in fact against Chirac and, especially, the policies applied by his gouvenment. From my limited reading of the constitution I did not see anything that was a setp back. I feel that the rection was the poorer choice, but then I'm in a minority of some 45%, I actually voted the question. On the one hand it iritated me to vote in a way that was favourable to Chirac and his elite, but I certainly didn't want to align myself with the Xenophobe vote (le Pen, de Villiers).

Chirac, wanted the referendum and now he has no hope of a third term as president, and will sit out the next two years as a lame duck president- if he wasn't that already!!!

Peter

The French economy is overburdened with stupid rules such as the 35 hour week which is making your industries very uncompetitive. Your taxation is also high and the long term outlook is not good.

France needs a lot less interference from the government.

Regards

Mick

Perhaps the pro-EU French finally got tired of the corrupt gravy train with it's gilded offices and plump allowances on top of their obscene salaries? Non?

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
French economy is overburdened with stupid rules such as the 35 hour week
France needs a lot less interference from the government.Mick

I agree with you Mick although you should know than most people in France are unhappy with the 35 hours a week stupid law. This law is extremely complex and not too many people are taking benefit from it, actually most of them are losing in the deal, particularly in small companies (under 20 people) for which the law doesn't apply (there are still working 39 hours a week...or more), plus the actual government made a few changes which makes the deal it even more unfair for the workers. Actually in many ways the Companies benefit from the 35hours law; for exemple the law gives them a much larger flexibility to have people at work for let say 42 hours a week if needed, without paying an higher rate per hour. The total of working hours isn't counted per week anymore...but per year.

About the Referendum Peter Stockwell analysis is quite right and I second him.

Regards,
Edouard

Edouard

We have just recently had the EU trying to impose a 48 hour rule on us.

I think whatever the views on the ruling, the main criticism is that it should be the UK which decides and not Europe.

I suspect that most of us prefer our own governments to make decisions because they are accountable at elections whilst the EU is seen as some massive bureaucracy, out of touch with individual national needs.

We should not over react on this. We still need the common market and trading conditions but we need to retain self government with the EU being purely advisory without any actual power.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Edouard:
...you should know than most people in France are unhappy with the 35 hours a week stupid law. This law is extremely complex and not too many people are taking benefit from it, actually most of them are losing in the deal, particularly in small companies (under 20 people) for which the law doesn't apply (there are still working 39 hours a week...or more), plus the actual government made a few changes which makes the deal it even more unfair for the workers. Actually in many ways the Companies benefit from the 35hours law; for exemple the law gives them a much larger flexibility to have people at work for let say 42 hours a week if needed, without paying an higher rate per hour. The total of working hours isn't counted per week anymore...but per year.

Regards,
Edouard

Thanks for that Edouard, it about sums up the position. The 35 hour week law was, on the face of it, a good idea. That is reduce the charges paid by the employers and get more people working and also allow more flexibility with the existing work forces. It's true that smaller companies, and those working for them, weren't bnecessarily benefitting, but there was an increase in flexibility of the time that workerswould work. i.e. It was annualised. As an aside, my sister in law owns a chemist shop and she was hostile to the 35 hour week in the beginning, but now she thinks it's great. She has 3 or 4 employees.

But, each business negotiated it's 35 hour contract individually and in some cases within large companies the contract was negotiated by branch. So you can see it can lead to some very bad feelings between workers for thesame company.

Lot's of totally unoriginal old Cliche' comments been made unsuprisingly business peeps. The big question for me is firstly this ! those that ranted and raved on this forum over the recent British Election (before & after) How many actually voted ? and Like I do when I vote here did they have to produce a'VALID' Passport as ID, and those that live in France and have such wonderful opinions 'DID YOU ACTUALLY VOTE ?' If not, like other elections IMHO your thoughts are totally irellevant to the subject at hand.


Fritz Von I don't care in the slightest what you voted for or against, just that you actually did so if you were entitled to do so, VERY EASY QUESTION & VERY HARD TO GET A STRAIGHT ANSWER TO, especially in this place, innit

I voted, but I wouldn't feel confident voting for Europe either was as I just don't understand it all.

I would imagine I am not alone.

I believe the French Government sent every household a copy of the proposed constitution for people to read and evaluate.
Can't see that happening in the UK. If we ever got to vote we'd be led by the rational analysis of rags like the daily mail!

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by bob mccluckie:
I believe the French Government sent every household a copy of the proposed constitution for people to read and evaluate.Bob

You are guessing right Bob! We are 5 people voting in our home and each of us received by mail, the whole proposed constitution to read and evaluate...meaning we got 5 copies of the proposed European Constitution.
I believe it would be the same for the English people if they had to vote the Constitution by Referendum.

Regards, Edouard

quote:

I voted, but I wouldn't feel confident voting for Europe either was as I just don't understand it all.

Then you should vote 'no' rather than vote for something you don't understand.

Or you vote with the people you trust, or against those you don't. Which I think is what the French have done and I don't see that that is a bad thing.

Paul

The beauty of living in a republic like France is that the government regard the electorate as their masters and themselves as servants.

Here it's the other way round.

France's economy isn't as good as it was, but they have become more flexible wrt working hours in recent months. In the UK, bosses have ultimate power and the result is simply that we work longer hours for the same money, producing the same as the French.

The media here is too easily manipulated by a rubber-stamp dictatorship government that never quivers in its boots at the prospect of a grilling by a truly representative parliament.

Until Germany was reunited (and that was a bad move economically for Western Europe) the likes of France and Germany reined supreme on this our continent.

Doing it cheap is a recipe for ruin in a global economy competing against the likes of China, Korea and India. We need to be doing it Quality and making use of our superior infrastructure.

Except that in the UK our superior infrastructure is being wasted by perverse wankery that puts up the price of fuel and becomes dependent on the revenue from it so as to exacerbate fuel-burning congestion and further untransport initiatives.

(We CAN build our way out of congestion...)

In ten years we will go down the economic plug hole as the former Eastern European nations get their repective acts together. Our roads will clog up in the name of Kyoto but at the same time our emissions will only be stemmed by a fall in economic activity within our shores.

With revenue from the burning of petrol/diesel so high the government will NEVER have an incentive to reduce congestion (and with it consumption/emissions of fossil fuels) and get us all moving as freely as possible so as to compete in a global industrial market.

In China they have completed an extensive 3-lane motorway network across the whole nation that nobody is using.

Yet...

When China's economy finally hits the First World, oil burning and emissions will not only hammer existing resources, the total global output of nasty emissions will go through the global roof.

Unilateral, tokenistic, counter-intuitive, sacrificial/suicidal measures in terms of our OWN economy - wrt fiscal penalising of the use of energy will amount to nothing other than our own losses in the global economic standing we currently enjoy today.

The European consitution was thankfully rejected by the French but not for the reasons we will ever understand.

They may think we are an Anglo-Saxon capitalist economy.

I only wish we were...

You can't get a YES vote for any referendum in Australia unless it contains free beer. In France, roll out the Barrel.

If cars were made of cobwebs and ran on fresh air there would still be traffic congestion on the roads Steve.

The only way your pandering to the motoring lobby would work is if we all moved underground and they tarmac the entire earth's surface!

Driving alone in a car is a selfish, world-destroying problem still looking for a solution.
Building more roads will change nothing except further increase global warming.

Get down on our knees beside your bed every night and thank your road gods that some people cycle, others walk, some catch the bus and others stay at home because they are too young or too old to drive. Otherwise there'd be no room for you and your taxi on the roads at all!

Ironically it may well be transport that finally levels the playing field between China and the Rest of The World. If they have to start catering for every Chinese family's desire for "decent" transport they wil probably eat up the world's remaining resources rather quickly.

Interesting news? Ordinary office jobs are now being "exported" to Eastern Europe.

Will W.European mass-unemployement become "the pedestrianised road" to Kyoto compliance?

Nime

Can't beat a good clear answer, innit

quote:

The only way your pandering to the motoring lobby would work is if we all moved underground and they tarmac the entire earth's surface!

That's a load of bollocks.

One millimetre wide on the road map to scale would equal 1000m wide on the ground. More roads 35m wide would suffice.

I'm all for improving other modes of transport. I'm totally opposed to phase shift to such modes via making private transport inefficient, unpleasant, congested and polluting - current untransport policy of this crypto-socialist government.

quote:

Can't beat a good clear answer, innit

If only it were...

Peter, Eduoard,

I am curious to know if many people who voted in the referendum were voting on whether there should be a constitution or what the constitution consisted of? I know for the UK vote much of the anti or pro groups are more focused on the existence of the constitution rather then the content.

Interestingly I was watching a series of Yes Minister (The Writings on the Wall) and some very telling comments on European Union given the last couple of days, and this was in an 1980's comedy!

Matthew

Based on conversation with sixty one individuals from six different European countries over the weekend the clear majority were in favour of the constitution.

I should add that each individual was reliably informed of the arguments.

I was surprised at the overwhelming favour for the constitution.

Make your own minds up.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Matthew T:I am curious to know if many people who voted in the referendum were voting on whether there should be a constitution or what the constitution consisted of?

Neither of them! As Peter said " the reasons for the rejection of the constitution for Europe in France are more rooted in the current state of domestic politics rather than an actual rejection of the constitution" There is 9,8% unemployment in France and the vote clearly shows that people are not confident in the future. Eventhough I believe their vote isn't going to help their futur to be better.
England unemployment is 4,5% and they would most probably vote NO to the European Constitution today, but not for the same reasons.

Regards, Edouard

I assume in France when you vote, as well as having your election registration slip you have to prove ID with a valid Passport or ID card, as they do here ?


Fritz Von Still nobody has mentioned how they prove identity in UK, never mind eh

quote:

Originally posted by Berlin Fritz:
I assume in France when you vote, as well as having your election registration slip you have to prove ID with a valid Passport or ID card, as they do here ?

you're assuming well.

If you you were unexpectedly asked for ID by the British police would you:

a) Pretend that your wallet contains no driving license, credit cards, library cards, appointment cards, business cards or any other obvious and simple means of immediately confirming your ID?

b) Sneakily pretend you don't own a wallet so can't possibly be carrying any ID at all?

c) Answer: "Que? I am from Barcelona!"

Just wondered.