French whine.

Posted by: Roy T on 08 June 2005

Is it the grape, location or the protection offered by European laws to the name that make a good wine or saomething else?

See what you think after browsing this short note from The Guardian.

The Champagne houses eye up English vineyards

French producers are in the market for Kent and Sussex estates which have been outperforming them in competitions

Mark Honigsbaum
Tuesday May 31, 2005
The Guardian

From Kent's Isle of Thanet to the Sussex Downs, what began as a rumour, or a bruit as the French might say, may soon become a brut reality.

French champagne houses, impressed by the strong performances of English wines in international competitions, are looking to buy English vineyards.

So far members of the Comité Interprofessionnel du Vin de Champagne, the association of French growers and producers which controls the right to label and market sparkling wines as champagne, has approached at least two leading English winemakers with offers to purchase their prize-winning vines. But the English growers, buoyed by global warming and fizzing sales, have politely said non.

Undeterred, the French are turning their attentions to farmers and landowners in Kent, whose south-facing chalk soils are said to be perfect for growing chardonnay, pinot noir and meunier grapes: the classic champagne blend.

Canterbury estate agents Strutt and Parker say that in the past 12 months it has seen a surge of interest from champagne houses and is now actively representing a "number of producers".

Although Strutt and Parker will not mention any names - it is staying Mumm, so to speak - the Guardian has discovered that one of the houses is Champagne Duval-Leroy.

Last September, Carol Duval-Leroy, the proprietor of the venerable 150-year producer located in the southern Cotes des Blancs region of Champagne, arrived at the 405 hectare (1,000 acres) Quex estate in the Isle of Thanet accompanied by two technicians.

According to the estate manager Antony Kerwin, who currently grows potatoes, wheat and rape there, they were looking for 20 hectares on which to plant vines as well as somewhere they could hold tastings and market their label.

"They loved the chalky soil and the fact that we are close to the Channel tunnel," said Mr Kerwin. "I think they also liked the fact that because we are near the sea we don't suffer as many frosts as Canterbury."

But Mr Kerwin thinks she may have been put off by the Waterloo Tower, a red-brick folly built by the estate's original owner, Jonathan Powell Powell.

"I made several jokes about it," said Mr Kerwin. "Normally, I have found the French have a good sense of humour but the madame didn't laugh. I've since heard she found somewhere closer to London."

Duval-Leroy refused to confirm or deny the rumour yesterday, saying that it was a "matter for madame".

Last year French houses made similar approaches to Chapel Down Wines in Tenterden, Kent, and the Ridgeview Wine estate in Ditchling Common, east Sussex.

Their interest coincided with a poor 2003 French vintage - due to the unusually cold spring that year followed by the blisteringly hot summer - and the impressive performance of English sparking whites in blind tastings.

Chapel Down's Pinot Reserve beat several French champagnes to win the gold medal at last year's International Wine Challenge Awards and in a blind tasting organised by Which? magazine in 2002, sparkling wines from Sussex winemakers Nyetimber and Ridgeview and Chapel Down beat a Premier Cru champagne into fourth place.

According to Frazer Thompson, managing director of Chapel Down, the performance of English sparkling wines should not be a surprise. The Sussex and Kent coasts are only 80 miles north of Champagne. The geology of the chalk sub-soil and the aspect of the south-facing slopes is almost identical.

At first, Mr Frazer said, he and other English wine makers were flattered by the French interest. But Chapel Down, now part of the English Wines Group, decided they could do just as well on their own.

The group has about 10 hectares of vines under cultivation at Tenterden and nearby Lamberhurst and has contracted with a farmer next door to the Quex estate for an additional 40 hectares. By sub-contracting with local farmers, Mr Frazer said the aim was to have 405 hectares under cultivation in the next few years.

"Why should we help the French when we are already producing better champagne on our own?" he said. "We have exactly the same soil conditions and thanks to global warming the climate is actually better. The only difference is I'm not allowed to call our wines champagne."

Depending on the yield, weather and the quality of the grapes there was no reason why English farmers could not expect yields of between £500 and £2,000 per quarter hectare said Mr Frazer.

"It's got to be better than growing cauliflower," he said.

Mike Roberts, owner of Ridgeview Wines, a six-hectare estate 10 miles north of Ditchling Beacon, the highest point on the Sussex Downs, said a number of French champagne houses owned vineyards in California and investing in the UK would be a logical extension of their business.

Mr Roberts, who also heads the English Wine Producers Association, said his firm had been approached by a French house recently, "but I can't give you any more information."

Like other Sussex producers, Ridgeview produces sparkling wines from clones of French champagne rootstocks.

Mr Roberts said he was not surprised by rumours that a French champagne house had already bought land in the south-east of England.

But Mr Frazer said the rules of the Comité meant the French could not describe the products of their English vines as champagne.

"At every English sporting event from Wimbledon to Ascot we toast the victors with French champagne," he said. "We'll probably be toasting the anniversary of our victory at Trafalgar this summer with French brands, too. It really gets my goat.
Posted on: 08 June 2005 by Berlin Fritz
Strongbow's nice, but as I'm shore yore aware it's made from 100% Froggy apples, innit.

Fritz Von And Simon Say's Big Grin
Posted on: 08 June 2005 by Lomo
Important that real champers is drunk at special events.
No substitutes accepted.
Posted on: 08 June 2005 by Nigel Cavendish
quote:
Originally posted by Berlin Fritz:
Strongbow's nice, but as I'm shore yore aware it's made from 100% Froggy apples, innit.

Fritz Von And Simon Say's Big Grin


No it isn't, but it is still crap
Posted on: 08 June 2005 by Bob McC
Champagne cannot be made in the UK.
Champagne is unique to the Champagne region of France.
The English wine will just have to be lumped with all the other cavas no matter how good it is.

Bob
Posted on: 08 June 2005 by Berlin Fritz
quote:
Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:
quote:
Originally posted by Berlin Fritz:
Strongbow's nice, but as I'm shore yore aware it's made from 100% Froggy apples, innit.

Fritz Von And Simon Say's Big Grin


No it isn't, but it is still crap


Oh Yes it is, say's me using my real name, you haven't got a bleedin scoobie doo John, as you've often proven here beyond any unreasonable doubt here in this place, innit.

Whils't having a beer or ten the other evening with a policeman friend of mine (in a Public House not a cheap stealth tax avoiding/bustin private club) we discussed Hooliganism. Although never talking shop, he told me about his activity's as an undercover (Kripo/CID) infriltrator of certain extreme political movements here in Germany and how they are brought to task etc.

Wether Mr A. Campbell is actually a member of the Burnley SS or not, not to mention Sheffield, or those other lot who are let's face it well "Stoke on Trent" is neither here not there, but the mentality and swearing is just the same, innit.

When you've tried Simmonds Cider (only real British Apples not including Merrydown) and got pissed on it, let me know your thouhts, Cavendish is a Sqaure, and it's very boring² Big Grin
Posted on: 08 June 2005 by Nigel Cavendish
quote:
Originally posted by Berlin Fritz:
quote:
Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:
quote:
Originally posted by Berlin Fritz:
Strongbow's nice, but as I'm shore yore aware it's made from 100% Froggy apples, innit.

Fritz Von And Simon Say's Big Grin


No it isn't, but it is still crap




When you've tried Simmonds Cider (only real British Apples not including Merrydown) and got pissed on it, let me know your thouhts, Cavendish is a Sqaure, and it's very boring² Big Grin


Simmonds (sic) - you probably mean Symonds - is owned by Bulmers you moron and is made by Bulmers.

I dare say I know more about cider and its manufacture than you ever will, and I also bet I have drunk more cider and more varieties of cider than you have had soup kitchen hand-outs.
Posted on: 08 June 2005 by Berlin Fritz
Of course you have Dear, I'm suprised you even need to say it !!!


Fritz Von Get your facts right Cavvy, then yer can form an opposition party, cos yer certainly know sod all about apples, innit:

Core
Posted on: 08 June 2005 by Nigel Cavendish
getajob innit

Bore
Posted on: 08 June 2005 by Berlin Fritz
Full of cunningplans you, innit Big Grin

Fritz Von I'm not qualified enough to be a postman, and salesmen these days all seem to call themselves consultants and the like for some strange reason, maybe they think that they're not salesmen afterall ? Big Grin
Posted on: 25 June 2005 by Roy T
Times thay are a changing . .. It's pink and garish, but it's the new look of French wine.
Posted on: 25 June 2005 by Berlin Fritz
Our Adam & Mick's generation used to call that very pink liquid 'Parafino', but then matured onto the more Sophistocrat, Pineapple avec Brasso. Big Grin
Posted on: 25 June 2005 by KenM
Cheeky buggers, the French.

Dom Perignon is claimed to have invented champagne in 1693. How come that the English were drinking the fizzy stuff in the 1660's?

http://www.globalgourmet.com/food/wineday/1999/wd1199/wd112699.htm
Posted on: 25 June 2005 by Berlin Fritz
I like the old Chardonnay method mesen, innit.

French Whine
Sauer Kraut
British Beef

Fritz Von Moanin ole lot ain't they ? Big Grin
Posted on: 25 June 2005 by rodwsmith
The odd misconception here...

Nature invented the process of sparkling wine, carbon dioxide being a by product of alcoholic fermentation. Dom Perignon is alleged to have been the first person to capture the gas under pressure. It was a scientific/packaging discovery not a winemaking one, and perhaps more to the point, Perignon was teetotal and he definitely didn't do it first (probably the people of Limoux, maybe the Swiss).

At the risk of arousing the ire of Fritz, I did actually point out recently that a treaty protecting the geographic names of EU wine regions has been bulldozed by the USA, in an exact reversal of what they had agreed to previously. Quelle surprise. The irony was that there are several Californian companies suing one another, and even a company in Europe, over the use of the word "Napa". Simultaneously they are suggesting that it is acceptable to shaft the people of Jerez by continuing to produce shitty ersatz Sherry for the simple reason that they have been getting away with it for a while.

The origin of the treaty was consumer protection, not producer.

Similar for Port, Malaga, Marsala, and, indeed Champagne. As Bob pointed out, "real" Champagne can only come from that region of France. However, "Cava" is also not a synonym for Sparkling wine as it is a protected term for Spanish sparkling wine (although nominally from anywhere within Spain).

It is hard to feel sympathy for the Champenois with their not inconsiderable weatlh, but the point still stands. Whilst some names of things that are geographic in origin have now become generic (eg Cheddar), this is not what the producers of Champagne want. Tasting wine for a living, I can assure you that producers who decide the easiest way to sell their wine is to pretend it is something else are generally bottling rubbish. This is as true of California sparkling wine with "Champagne" on the label as it is of fake parmesan. Or fake anything for that matter I guess.

And here's why it is important:
(The best) wine does display a sense of its origin, Tarquin I'm afraid you're completely wrong. The biggest variable is climate, and those of California and France differ rather. The cool growing season in the north of France means the grapes ripen far more slowly, reaching flavour ripeness whilst still retaining acidity (essential for fizz). The Americans - and others - simply either harvest way too early or add the acid from a packet. This is why New Zealand, Tasmania and Oregon arguably produce the best new world fizz. The downside is that this coolness of climate is necessarily patchy with risk of frost, hail and so on which pushes up the price of Champagne and means they cannot make vintage wine every year.

The next greatest variable is soil, which governs whether grapes will grow in a particular place and what style of wine they will produce.

Geologically speaking the South Downs, and the limestone Chalk belt that underlies Champagne and Chablis is one and the same thing. "La Manche" is relatively recent geologically and as Vera Lynn pointed out the cross-section is a bit of a give-away. Now it is obvious why the Champagne companies are looking at purchases in Sussex/Kent (although this has been PR exaggerated to a ludicrous degree). We have a similar climate and near-identical soil. Champagne cannot expand by law (everywhere that can be vineyard already is)

quote:
If the grapes are the same, the proces is ths same and the bloke making it is French, then its the same.


Not quite, then.

Semantically however, there is a further problem with the word "Champagne" and that is its origin as simply 'countryside'. There is another Champagne in Cognac (you might see "Fine Champagne" on a brandy label) a town in Switzerland, (which ironically has produced sparlkling wine for centuries) even Campania in Italy and so on.

The French wanted to do away with "Methode Champenoise" for the simple reason that most of wine labelled as such weren't. Some even were made by a method that the French call "pompe bicyclette". It was unpoliceable.

However, I have tried Nyetimber Brut and Ridgeview from Sussex recently and frankly they knock some similarly priced (£18) Champagne into a cocked hat.
Nevertheless, give me Bollinger any day. If someone else is paying.

Don't care much for cider though...

Bottom's up!

Rod
Posted on: 26 June 2005 by Berlin Fritz
Interesting Rod, though you don't mention the Chardonnay Method ? and I'm sure I've covered the Swiss Champagne 'Product' before, as they may lose their right to use it when joining the EU. Their product, as you rightly say has been made for Centurys, but is not in the least sparkling, is red, and very sweet, innit.

Fritz Von Sekt Sekt Sekt Big Grin
Posted on: 30 June 2005 by Roy T
Glug, Glug

Corks pop in Sussex as British wine tops world list
Razz
Posted on: 30 June 2005 by Berlin Fritz
I'm sure it tastes lovely, but barring the fact that the International Wine & Spirit Competition is promoted in the 'Pathetic' Grauniad, as well as being, I believe a Scottish Set up, so 'International' essentially means 'very Little in fact' I hope they are all very pleased with their little world.


Fritz Von If you tell me that this luvvly jubbly jesus juice has won an 'actual' International prize for Sparlking wines etc, then we're talking, innit Big Grin